Another way to get Chinese slots

[el cid again]

I am about to freeze RHS development in the broader sense. We now know how many slots are open (not very many).

Is there any case we have omitted a significant ROC or Red Army formation?

Is there any case we have mislocated a ROC or Red formation?

Is there any case we have missed a major weapon in a ROC or Red formation? Or grossly overrated the
strength of such a unit?

If there any case we have duplicated formations (due to name changes)?

[Badnews]

I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army. [:D]
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.[8D]

[el cid again]

That only is possible if "Chinese regular army" includes "warrant" troops. They really are factional troops.
And note that they change sides under pressure.

Further - it isn't likely a group army (= 3 divisions) has a million men. Even if it did - it would not have weapons for a whole army group - so it would not matter very much.

But specifics we can use and will consider.

[Big B]

I'm glad to see that it's generally accepted that China was under-represnted in stock WitP.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Badnews

I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army. [:D]
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.[8D]

18th Group Army was the Eight Route Army. When the CCP and KMT formed the united front the official name of the Eight Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. jituanjun is sometimes translated as Army. jun is Corps. How best to represent the increasing guerilla activity of the Communists in the current game design is certainly problematic. But rest assured the 1,020,000 men were guerillas.

[Nikademus]

are you arming them all?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

are you arming them all?

Me? - Edit: Oops i saw it was in reply to badnews...

[Nikademus]

well your doing a china alteration so feel free as well. [:)]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Badnews

I am editing the OOB of Chinese Army.
There are about 40 Army, 120 Corps and 230 Divisions in Chinese regular Army in 1937-1945.
Not including the Red Army. [:D]
The 18th Group Army has 1,020,000 soilder in 1945.[8D]

18th Group Army was the Eight Route Army. When the CCP and KMT formed the united front the official name of the Eight Route Army was the 18th jituanjun. jituanjun is sometimes translated as Army. jun is Corps. How best to represent the increasing guerilla activity of the Communists in the current game design is certainly problematic. But rest assured the 1,020,000 men were guerillas.

Then we are OK - because we have separated out the guerillas - although not a million of them - we have as many as we can find slots for. It is enough to complicate things - and they regenerate very fast - as all Chinese units do. Our guerillas are self feeding - and communist ones stronger (because they feed more they tend to have a higher strength).

The correct traditional translation is "army" - it is an ancient usage and it is also the source of the term in Japanese. Many modern people feel "corps" is better because it is similar in size to a Western corps however. We also have the Eighth Route Army - as all mods do I think - but ours has a famous and skilled commander - as does another Chinese Red "corps". We strictly use literal traditional translations - so a "field army" means two divisions and a "group army" means three divisions.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

are you arming them all?

I do not. Instead, I arm the "cadre." Each "regiment" is about a battalion in size - with a tiny number of heavy weapons - but it regenerates wherever it is - local supplies or not - so there are de facto lots of people around helping out - and replacing losses. I separate ROC guerillas and Red guerillas into different support categories - a wholly unsupplied ROC guerilla unit will tend (not in battle ) to be 2/3 strength while a wholly unsupplied Red guerilla unit (not in battle) will tend to be full strength - and have extra supplies. When they approach full value both types will "plant" and not move around - but help any attack in the hex - defend the hex - and provide recon/intel in the hex. If hurt badly they will "unplant" and retreat - and be free to move wherever for a while - and a player can use them to mess up enemy LOC. I regard the invention (by Treespider) of guerillas as wonderful - but I like the RHS variation better still - since they are not the same as regulars and do not "mass" to attack like regulars do - although you often get one or two in a major attack. Their role is really not meant to be that of attacking as part of an army - but of getting in the way and cutting LOC.

[Badnews]

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.
[:D]

[Badnews]

66th Chinese Corps
66C founded in 1937, and been withdraw in 1940.

66C has rebuild in 1942.3, including N28D, N38D, N39D.
Comander: Zhang, Zhen (1942.3)
66C fight against Japanese at Lashio in Burma, and been withdraw in 1942.3.29.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps in 1942.12, inluding Temp.32D, Temp.33D, Temp.34D, Temp.35D.
Comander: Feng, Sheng-fa (1942.12~1943.2)
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.2)
66C fight in Zhejiang Province, east of China, and been withdraw in 1943.2.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps  again  in 1943.10, including 185D, 199D.
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.10~1944.8)
Comander: Song, Rui-ke (1944.8~)
66C fight against Japanese near Changsha
[8D]

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.
[:D]

OK - lets be clear here - THIS thread is an RHS thread - and its purpose is served by this kind of data. Since RHS is a fork from CHS - it inherits this sort of thing. And thank you for being first to respond as requested.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.
[:D]

Incorrect. In Treespider's CHS 60th Corps starts in Mengtze in hex 37,33 one hex to the SW of Kunming on the map which is located on the Indo-Chinese Border.

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Badnews

66th Chinese Corps
66C founded in 1937, and been withdraw in 1940.

66C has rebuild in 1942.3, including N28D, N38D, N39D.
Comander: Zhang, Zhen (1942.3)
66C fight against Japanese at Lashio in Burma, and been withdraw in 1942.3.29.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps in 1942.12, inluding Temp.32D, Temp.33D, Temp.34D, Temp.35D.
Comander: Feng, Sheng-fa (1942.12~1943.2)
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.2)
66C fight in Zhejiang Province, east of China, and been withdraw in 1943.2.

66C has rebuild from the 9th temp. corps  again  in 1943.10, including 185D, 199D.
Comander: Fang, Jin (1943.10~1944.8)
Comander: Song, Rui-ke (1944.8~)
66C fight against Japanese near Changsha
[8D]

Unfortunately the game currently does not allow you to withdraw units.

In Treespider's CHS I opted to place the 66th corps in Wan-Hsien as a static corps composed of the 185th and 199th ID.

In reviewing I have overlooked 93rd, 55th Prov., and the N28, N38 & N39Ds ...my bad. IIRC I had them in the original CHS but when I redid the Orbat I forgot to place them back into the game. Not sure why I did that they are sitting there in my written notes...too many late nights I suppose.

[treespider]

Badnews, I'm looking forward to seeing your mod when it is released. Perhaps through the collaboration of all members here we will eventually see an accurate representation of China within the game.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: Badnews

Chinese OOB in Official Scenario, CHS, B Mod, Nik Mod or etc has many mistake.

For Example,
The 60th Chinese Corps had transfer to 1st Group Army at Kumming in 1940.10.
And Defend The China-Vietnam border until 1945, Southwest of China.
After Japan surrender, this corps enter Vietnam and stay in north of Vietnam until 1946.
The 60th Chinese Corps was surrounded and revloted to PLA at Changchun in 1948.11, northeast of China.

All version of the scenario of mod has deploy 60C in Homan, center of China.
[:D]

Oh I humbly submit that the Chinese OOB and deployment in the B-Mod is full of errors, since I could not find any sources detailing Chinese forces and deployment beyond what stock gives you.
I merely wanted to increase Chinese force levels to some semblance of China would have had in the period in question - so as not to let China routinely be overrun as the stock game allows you. (I read that China had some 550 divisions during the war - but not all at once).

I did, however, find references to the make up of the KMT Central Army (reckoned at 80 divisions of about 8,000 men each - as opposed to Regional Army divisions at about 4,000-5,000 men), Changs' artillery park and the types and approximate number of guns, etc., which I implemented. And the best approximate front line at start was taken from the latest CHS at the time - which Treespider did.

But under no circumstances did I ever consider the Chinese OOB in B-Mod as definitive, so I am in total agreement with you, [;)]
and if you can actually come up with an accurate Chinese OOB - my hat is off to you![&o]


Brian

[m10bob]

It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??

I chose to make all the communist forces "static" except for guerilla units.

It was a situation that is very hard to duplicate in a two side game like this..

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

It bothers me that it is so easy to allow cooperation between Nationalist forces and Communist forces against the Japanese, (stacking, etc.)
IRL there were Japanese observations of Communist forces actively attacking Nationalist forces retreating from the Japanese, (not to assist the Japanese, but to kick 'em while they were down).
The Russians chose to lend assistance to the Nationalist forces figuring they had a better chance to drain the Japanese of strength, but planning on aiding the Communist forces once Japan had been rendered defeated.


I wonder if maybe the Communist Chinese should be made "russian"(inactive), or maybe just all *static*??

I made the communists in Yenan static...the Russian option is one thing i kicked around and seriously considered making the communists russian troops. But i didn't test so I'm not sure how it would affect russian activation.