First Reported Allied Victoy

[geozero]

ORIGINAL: targul

Without these tanks the Soviet Union would not exist today.

The Soviet Union ceased to exist in August 1991. [:D]

But I get what you mean.

[SMK-at-work]

We've done the Siberians to death already - not only were they not used en masse but they were not combat veterans - the standard conscription was for 2 years, and it was more than 2 years since hte R-J war of 1939 - those soldiers released to reserve units sicne them were called up into whatever recruited them locally - ie they were dispersed around the rest of the army.

If an Axis player plans PROPERLY then they should be able to run over most of the USSR - Nazi Gemany failed mainly because they planned only for a 4-6 month war.....they day it went longer than that they were in trouble.

there was also nothing wrong with Soviet AT tech.  They thought everyone else was building tanks as heavily armoured as their own, so had started building 107mm AT guns to counter them!!  Yep - one-hundred-and-seven-millimetre.  The gun was also going to be the main armament of their new heavy tanks being designed in 1941.  Only about 130 or so were built before they realised it was overkill!!

ditto with their 57mm gun in 1941 - it had far more performance than was required in 1941, and being very expensive to make they put it on the back burner, resurecting it in 1943-4 when the big cats arrived.

I had a game vs the AI Axis yesterday - AI set to max bonus and no oil.  the Sov's only made AT tech 1 just before they were over-run, despite having 2-3 factories focusing on it most of the war.  Perm fell the same turn as Rome, and after that the Axis jsut didn't seem to do much except garrison its cities - I was expecting a massed attack by the hordes of veterans of het Eastern Front but they all sat out there, rebuilt, reteched and garrisoned cities - except for the airforces.

[Vypuero]

Testing

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

We've done the Siberians to death already - not only were they not used en masse but they were not combat veterans - the standard conscription was for 2 years, and it was more than 2 years since hte R-J war of 1939 - those soldiers released to reserve units sicne them were called up into whatever recruited them locally - ie they were dispersed around the rest of the army.

SMK-at-work:

You seem to persist with these statements, and yet you have not provided a single quote and page number from a book by a recognized historian on the subject.

[IrishGuards]

Oh dear .. battle is joined .. [&o]
When I say something like that I usually ask if its my outloud voice ... [:'(]
IDG

[SMK-at-work]

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

We've done the Siberians to death already - not only were they not used en masse but they were not combat veterans - the standard conscription was for 2 years, and it was more than 2 years since hte R-J war of 1939 - those soldiers released to reserve units sicne them were called up into whatever recruited them locally - ie they were dispersed around the rest of the army.

SMK-at-work:

You seem to persist with these statements, and yet you have not provided a single quote and page number from a book by a recognized historian on the subject.

1/ there's nothing "seem to persist" about it - I DO persist in making these statements.

2/ As I said in another thread - I shall await the return of my tomes on the subject, and let yo have it

Edit: To help assuage your thirst for knowledge, I have found one on-line titbit - it is only an aside unfortunately, and does not give quantities, etc, however it follows the general thrust that I and others have followed - that he Siberians, while present, were not the be-all and end-all of the attacking forces:

.....the Russian forces that assembled for the December attacks were a mixture of fresh Siberian divisions, burned-out veteran units, and hastily raised militia.

and

Except for some Siberian units, the newly deployed formations were generally understrength, poorly trained, and lacking in equipment.

From

Standing Fast: German Defensive Doctrine on the Russian Front During World War II
Prewar to March 1943

by Major Timothy A. Wray, from the US Army Command and General Staff College online library http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources ... y/wray.asp

This was written in 1986, so the kernel of the truth was known a long time ago, but the details are just now emerging.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

We've done the Siberians to death already - not only were they not used en masse but they were not combat veterans - the standard conscription was for 2 years, and it was more than 2 years since hte R-J war of 1939 - those soldiers released to reserve units sicne them were called up into whatever recruited them locally - ie they were dispersed around the rest of the army.

SMK-at-work:

You seem to persist with these statements, and yet you have not provided a single quote and page number from a book by a recognized historian on the subject.

1/ there's nothing "seem to persist" about it - I DO persist in making these statements.

2/ As I said in another thread - I shall await the return of my tomes on the subject, and let yo have it

Hi

On a wargame forum you should always be prepared to provide sources when announcing NEW historical information.

Let me help you out a bit.

No historian I have read has ever used the term "Siberian Hordes". This is your term. There was never a mass of Siberians. Most authorities I have read indicate that between 15 to 20 divisions from the east were sent to the west between Oct/41 and Jan/42.

There were about 100 Soviet divisions in total being used in the counter attack around Moscow in Dec 1941. Of these, 80 divisions were worn out and were drawn in from other fronts. They were grouped on the German flanks. This was the "ANVIL".

The almost 20 Siberian divisions, on the other hand, were rested, were almost fully equipped and at full strength, and were located north of Moscow, and were to be used at the last minute as the "HAMMER BLOW" striking the "ANVIL".

You mentioned previously about the Siberian "Myth". Yet, Siberian divisions were sent west. All established authorities recognize this.

You also stated that these Siberian divisions were inexperienced and had been disbanded. Yet historians state otherwise.

Alan Clark, in his book "Barbarossa" states on page 171, "Yet by itself the impact of the winter would not be enough for an exhausted and outnumbered Red Army to turn the tables on its adversary; the chosen instrument for this task was the agglomeration of hard, long-service divisions from the Siberian Command. In order that the impact of the Siberian troops take maximum effect, it was vital that they be held back until the last moment...."

For those who have Clark's book, he provides a map on page 173 indicating where all these divisions were located.

Clark, an historian, mentions that the Siberian divisions had been in LONG service, and were experienced. Why would he say that? In 1939, the Soviets fought a battle with Japan, in which Japan suffered 50,000 casualties.

Between that time and late 1941 Hitler took great pains to get Japan to attack NORTH into Siberia. Stalin simply could not disband these Siberian troops in the east. The Japanese threat was always there.

It was not until late 1941 when Stalin's spy Richard Sorge indicated that the Japanese had decided to attack SOUTH, that Stalin released about 20 of these Siberian divisions to move west around Moscow.

In sum, about 20 experienced, mostly full-strength Siberian divisions were sent west AFTER it was realized that Japan would not attack Siberia. They proved to be instrumental in the counterattack around Moscow.

The other 80 Soviet divisions were mostly exhausted, and worn out from months of bitter fighting. They were to be used against the German forces until the last minute when the fresh Siberian troops would be released.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

ORIGINAL: Warfare1

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

We've done the Siberians to death already - not only were they not used en masse but they were not combat veterans - the standard conscription was for 2 years, and it was more than 2 years since hte R-J war of 1939 - those soldiers released to reserve units sicne them were called up into whatever recruited them locally - ie they were dispersed around the rest of the army.

SMK-at-work:

You seem to persist with these statements, and yet you have not provided a single quote and page number from a book by a recognized historian on the subject.

1/ there's nothing "seem to persist" about it - I DO persist in making these statements.

2/ As I said in another thread - I shall await the return of my tomes on the subject, and let yo have it

Edit: To help assuage your thirst for knowledge, I have found one on-line titbit - it is only an aside unfortunately, and does not give quantities, etc, however it follows the general thrust that I and others have followed - that he Siberians, while present, were not the be-all and end-all of the attacking forces:

.....the Russian forces that assembled for the December attacks were a mixture of fresh Siberian divisions, burned-out veteran units, and hastily raised militia.

and

Except for some Siberian units, the newly deployed formations were generally understrength, poorly trained, and lacking in equipment.

From

Standing Fast: German Defensive Doctrine on the Russian Front During World War II
Prewar to March 1943

by Major Timothy A. Wray, from the US Army Command and General Staff College online library http://www-cgsc.army.mil/carl/resources ... y/wray.asp

This was written in 1986, so the kernel of the truth was known a long time ago, but the details are just now emerging.

I think you may have misunderstood what the author was writing here.

Your source states there were FRESH Siberian forces. Then he states that there were also many burned out Soviet troops.

These are two separate forces.

All sources AGREE with this (see my post above).

Historians have known for years that FRESH Siberian troops were used in conjunction with the worn out and tired Soviet troops that had been pulled in from other fronts.

These worn out troops WERE NOT SIBERIANS. They were Soviet troops that had been pulled in from other fronts, and they were placed on the FLANKS of the German forces around Moscow.

The FRESH SIBERIAN FORCES, on the other hand, were to be used AFTER these Soviet flank forces had worn down the Germans.

Again, see my post above for the full details.

[SMK-at-work]

The siberian myth I object to, and which was noted in "that other thread" is that he Winter counter offensives by the Soviet union were all carried out by Siberian units, veterans who had been secretly assembled en-masse and were used in a single crushing blow.

That is the essence of hte position I object to.

Yes Siberian units were shipped from the far east - but 40 divisions were kept there, twice as many as were sent. 

No they were not veterans - their conscripts had not seen any action because the nomohon "incident" had occured befoer they weer called up - it's simple math - look up the dates!

No they were not especially equipped with winter clothing - the Russians had made great advances in winter equipment across their entire army, and many regular units had winter clothing. 

No they were not specially trained for winter warfare - again the soviet army had ben trying to correct the obvious problems from the Winter war for the previous 18 months across all units, including winter operational training.

Of those 20 or so divisions, at least some were committed to battle long before the winter offensives.

I'm interested in where you get those specific deployments from - I have not read that anywhere - do you have a reference?

all of these dilute the myth that the Siberians were a sudden surprise.  When I have the rest of the numbers I shall give them to you.

Oh and for an overview of how we got to teh poor understanding we have of hte Soviet war effort I can thoroughly recommend Glantz's article at http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/e-front.htm

[IrishGuards]

Hey .. can I play too ... [8|]
I got some books .. they got writing in them .. Irish can read u kno ..
I smat .. I play game .. Befer I evn git book .. why can't I just find a big un and smack my opponent with it ..
Save I Oil .. for the tankies .. U kno the pointy units ..
Gonna be a donnybrook .. some think that means river defences ,, I say nay ,,
IDG

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

The siberian myth I object to, and which was noted in "that other thread" is that he Winter counter offensives by the Soviet union were all carried out by Siberian units, veterans who had been secretly assembled en-masse and were used in a single crushing blow.

That is the essence of hte position I object to.

As I have mentioned, 20 fresh Siberian divisions took part in the counterattack along with 80 worn out divisions.

So we are in agreement.

Yes Siberian units were shipped from the far east - but 40 divisions were kept there, twice as many as were sent.

Sorry, but you have your facts wrong.

There were 40 in total - 20 were sent west, leaving 20 remaining.

No they were not veterans - their conscripts had not seen any action because the nomohon "incident" had occured befoer they weer called up - it's simple math - look up the dates!

Where is your source?

No they were not especially equipped with winter clothing - the Russians had made great advances in winter equipment across their entire army, and many regular units had winter clothing.

Not sure why you are argung this. The Soviets were simply prepared for winter; the Germans were not.

No they were not specially trained for winter warfare - again the soviet army had ben trying to correct the obvious problems from the Winter war for the previous 18 months across all units, including winter operational training.

Who said they were specially trained for winter warfare?

Of those 20 or so divisions, at least some were committed to battle long before the winter offensives.

Some arrived in Oct/41. They may have been committed. But we need sources for this.

I'm interested in where you get those specific deployments from - I have not read that anywhere - do you have a reference?

See Alan Clark above.

all of these dilute the myth that the Siberians were a sudden surprise. When I have the rest of the numbers I shall give them to you.

The Siberians were a surprise. 18 Siberian divisions attacked the Germans from the north of Moscow after being engaged by 80 worn out Soviet divisions.

Oh and for an overview of how we got to teh poor understanding we have of hte Soviet war effort I can thoroughly recommend Glantz's article at http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/e-front.htm

Interesting article. It was written in 1987. What does it provce about the Siberians? Nothing.

If you had read that article completely you would also see where the author greatly cautions us when using Soviet sources.

In other words, be critical, use a wide variety of sources, check facts, and use sources.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards

Hey .. can I play too ... [8|]

Sorry guys - didn't mean to hi-jack the thread.

I have said all I have needed to say.

[IrishGuards]

When you talk about the amount of div's sent .. and when .. lets bare in mind before the big Z even attacked he had and did use the ability to SR and reinforce the Sovie Far East //
Then he attacked .. overwhelming superiority .. Hey he says lets bring in 1000 tanks and 1000 air .. oh dear .. this is wher the bulk of Siberians or Far East forces come from in my mind .. whenever they arrive .. [;)]
Japs folded like a hand fan .. and then the USSR troops were not essential for the front ..
The Japs would have to spend a fortune to even begin to adjust the Strategic balance ..
And thats with them owning the seas .. saw nay Cv's in air strike mode over Vlad ..
Russia had sent there best "Commander" he did the job and then some ..
No it was not Europe ..
At War though .. !! [&o]
IDG

[SMK-at-work]

Interesting article. It was written in 1987. What does it provce about the Siberians? Nothing.

sigh.....and where did I say it did? 

I said quite specifically that it gives some background as to why we accept the stories that have come to us from WW2, and it notes teh serious shortcomings of hte sources of those stories - namely the post-war German histories that are one-sided.

Geoffrey Jukes, The Second World War - The Eastern Front 1941–1945, Osprey, 2002, pg 42 - the Soviets had assembled 58 divisions in reserve by December 1940. A maximum of 20 could have been siberian, according to your figures.....or 33%.

[Warfare1]

ORIGINAL: SMK-at-work

Interesting article. It was written in 1987. What does it provce about the Siberians? Nothing.

sigh.....and where did I say it did?

I said quite specifically that it gives some background as to why we accept the stories that have come to us from WW2, and it notes teh serious shortcomings of hte sources of those stories - namely the post-war German histories that are one-sided.

The article also states we should be very cautious of Soviet authors as well, but you neglected to mention that.

The article was written in 1987. Almost all of my sources are from 1995 and onwards, so the historians would have been aware of Zhukov's book as well as new material from the Soviet archives, and yet their views regarding the Siberian troops remains essentially as I have written it. I haven't read about any big surprises.

In fact many of our views are in agreement.

[Vypuero]

I read through the section on the W41 battles around Moscow in the book "When Titans Clashed: How the Red Army Stopped Hitler" - which uses a lot of Soviet archive information.  There is no particular mention of the Siberians, BUT in general the focus is on how the Soviets had a remarkable ability to marshall large reserves and reserve armies.

[SMK-at-work]

The only way I could mention everything that the article mentions is to reproduce hte article - that's why I gave a link.....so you could go read it for yourself.  Since I haven't quoted any Soviet authors the point about using soviet authors with caution is pretty moot!![>:][>:]

[targul]

November 18th, 1941...German troops attacking Venev, on the southern pincer drive to Moscow, are themselves counterattacked by a Siberian division and armored brigade. These forces bring something new to the battlefield: white fur coats for the Siberian infantry and the T-34 tank, whose American Christie suspension, sloping armor, and 76mm gun make it one of the most powerful in the world. The Germans fight back, but the extreme cold freezes their automatic weapons. The Germans panic. "This was the first time that such a thing had occurred during the Russian campaign, and it was a warning that the combat ability of our infantry was at an end, and that they should no longer be expected to perform difficult tasks." However, German General Franz Halder notes in his diary that "the Soviets had nothing left in the rear, and his predicament is probably even worse than ours." by David Lippman
 
Uhmm, seems strange that this quote is available from Novemerber 18 1941 that the T-34 Tank was meet and Siberian Infantry.  Since according to some on this board these are both myths.  This Germany General here is obviously trying to explain his loss near Moscow so he invented the T34 and the 2 Siberian Divisions.  Nice touch him giving the white fur coats.  This guy obviously knew we would fall for this in history.

[targul]

As the German drive against Moscow slackened, the Soviet
commander on the Moscow front, General Georgy Konstantinovich Zhukov,
on December 6 inaugurated the first great counteroffensive with
strokes against Bock's right in the Elets (Yelets) and Tula sectors
south of Moscow and against his center in the Klin and Kalinin sectors
to the northwest. Levies of Siberian troops, who were extremely
effective fighters in cold weather, were used for these offensives.
There followed a blow at the German left, in the Velikie Luki sector;
and the counteroffensive, which was sustained throughout the winter of
1941-42, soon took the form of a triple convergence toward Smolensk.  From Russia WWII Offensive 1941 Essay
 
Again on Dec 6. 1941 these mythical Siberian troops show up as effective fighters in Cold Weather.  These authors should really read this board so they can find what they are writting about does not really exist.  College students Thesis and Essays from sources that just dont exist should not be allowed to be published as they seem to be.  You would think the professors examining those thesis' would simply not except this myth but they continue to allow it.

[targul]

However, handicapped by the extreme cold and thoroughly exhausted, the Axis troops were completely and utterly unable to make any further advances towards the Soviet capital. After everything that they had done to lead up to that moment, they couldn't find the energy or will to commence the invasion of the city itself. However, by then, Moscow itself was literally transformed into a fortress. About 250,000 women and teenagers continued to work and toil, building hundreds of further trenches around Moscow, moving almost 3 million cubic meters of earth with no mechanical help. Every single factory in Moscow was contributing to the war effort in any possible way. In addition, fresh Soviet Siberian troops, prepared for winter warfare, attacked the German forces in the outskirts of Moscow. Miraculously, by January of 1942, had driven the Germans back 100 to 250 kilometers (60 to 150 miles), ending the immediate threat to Moscow and marking the closest that the Axis forces ever got to capturing the Soviet capital. At last, the Soviets had successfully forced the German invaders out from the Soviet capital. The Battle of Moscow is therefore usually considered one of the most important battles in the war between the Axis Powers and the Soviet Union, mainly because the Soviets were able to successfully prevent the most serious threat to their capital. The battle was also one of the largest and bloodiest battles during World War II, with over 1 million total casualties. Also, the battle marked a major turning point in the war, as it was the first time that the German Army was forced into a major retreat since the beginning of the war. The Soviet defeat of the Germans was therefore not only crucial, but miraculous in the overall picture of World War II. Overall, because it determined the fate of the Soviet Union in World War II, the Battle of Moscow was without doubt one of the most crucial and decisive battles of World War II.  From World War II Tanks the Eastern Front The Battle for Moscow
 
Fresh Soviet Siberians trained in Winter Warfare.  How can this be?  Why do I keep seeing these quotes everywhere when I know from this board that the Siberians are a myth and that they were not at Moscow.  I am so confused.