RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division

[highblooded]

Hello,
I have been searching for the 10th Inf Div. Was it broken into smaller units(Brigades,Etc)?
It's slot is being used by 10th Mtn Gun Rgt.(#1295). This is specifically about RAO but I believe it is missing from EOS and the others as well.
My Research suggests it served in Manchuria at the beginning of the war. Scen. 15 has it at Port Arthur.
I am certain it would be massive but is there a list of all such changes and decisions made?
For Example I can't seem to find a square Inf Div- are they around? I like the ABC Div rating but some were square and some triangular.
Also a bit confused about the "division" brigade units(55 I.D. and 56 I.D.)

Thanks for any assistance.

[el cid again]

It is impossible to document all such decisions. Further - it is not possible to know - with this software that does not track - who did what? Most of RHS - massive as work on it has been - is inherited - from CHS and even more from stock.

The "division brigade" is an RHS term: it means a BINARY division with two regiments. It is put in the game as a brigade - because code permits a brigade to break into two parts - but called a division in honor of its name. Both these units had a brigade detached for independent operations at the start of the war. The term is meant to imply "small division" and it is meant also to imply "breaks into two major parts" instead of three. Oddly - one of the brigades broken off eventually contained 3 small regiments (of 2 battalions)!!! So this unit - 65th I think - should be represented as a "brigade division" - but I don't think I thought of that.

If 10th Division is missing - it was missing in CHS - probably. I certainly didn't remove it. Perhaps Joe can shed some light? It might be present as components.

EDIT: 10th Division is missing in RHS - but not in stock or CHS - where it occupies slot 1295. A 10th Mountain Gun Regiment was in that slot in RHS - and it now has been moved so we can use the stock location. An advisory to Andrew and I from Matrix (arriving a few days after each of us independently came to the same conclusion) was to use stock slots for safety - due to the presence of hard code associated with a particular unit - undocumented hard code making it impossible to know when we can change slots.

[el cid again]

This is an important IJA unit - nearly wiped out in combat with the US Army in 1944 - and there is no excuse for its omission. I wonder - however - what else might be missing? Since the IJA was reviewed twice for CHS before we branched - it never occurred to me to check. Now I will.

[el cid again]

I cannot find an IJA 2nd Division!

But there is one (slot 1433) - so either I cannot read or for some reason it isn't always visible.

[m10bob]

Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_jap ... 41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).

[Fletcher]

10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (鉄兵団, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (鉄兵団, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.

Excellent Fletch..I wonder if serving in reserve status meant it was only carrying a cadre on 7 Dec, (which might be why Niehorster listed 10th "brigade" instead of division in the Kwangtung area??)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I cannot find an IJA 2nd Division!

But there is one (slot 1433) - so either I cannot read or for some reason it isn't always visible.

He asked about the 10th division (not 2nd). Are you saying there is a different division missing, or was that a typo? If there's one missing, I might wait before I fire up a game with 7.754.

[Fletcher]

At Dec 7th 1941, 10th Infantry Division was triangular (it was a Type A before 1941), and was commanded by Jiro Sogawa.

About all elements under direct command of Kwangtung Area Army HQ:

* Kwangtung Area Army Head Quarters at Changchung
* 10th Division (Sogawa) at Changchng, appears in the OOB like this division got clobbered at Taierchuang in 1938 (too much time ago, but it is a note).
* 28th Division (Ishiguro), at Chanchung.
* 29th Division (Uemura), at Anshan
* Kwangtung Defense Brigade at Chanchung.

I hope this help !
Cheers

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_jap ... 41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).

Since Niehorster was used as the "bible" for IJA, this explains the omission of the 10th Division.
This is an opportunity to point out that Neihorster is notoriously incomplete. It is a generic problem
with all scholarly materials: even if they know something they often don't put it in because the
source material does not meet this or that scholarly test, and if they don't know it at all - it is naturally
omitted. We act as if such a source is complete when in fact it is not. There is ample material on 10th
Division to say it dates from the 19th century, it was important in earlier wars, and it was encountered
and destroyed as a functional unit by the US Army in the Philippines. How it can be missing from a
very good listing like this one is impossible for us to know - but the lesson should be learned that no single
source is complete or to be wholly trusted - in particular one not in the native language or officially issued
by the service in question. If Niehorster lists it, it probably was there (although not always where he lists it
at). If not - it only means he didn't know about it - or sometimes knew but for whatever technical reason still
didn't list it.

EDIT: Please do not read the above to mean I do not regard N highly. He used materials from a Japanese scholar and he revised material over time - as good scholars do. I meant only to say that no single source should be treated as holy writ - perfect - complete - and in particular that the absence of something is a sign it did not exist. Here we have been misreading N: the 10th IS listed - but not as a part of any corps (army) - rather as an independent unit directly under the Kwangtung Army. Since you cannot see the software listing all at once - this is easy to miss - you must look at many places to be sure something is absent. In this case the allegation - which I wrongly confirmed - that 10th was not listed - was a bum rap for N. Not that there are not missing units - but this isn't one of them.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (“S•º’c, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.

Excellent Fletch..I wonder if serving in reserve status meant it was only carrying a cadre on 7 Dec, (which might be why Niehorster listed 10th "brigade" instead of division in the Kwangtung area??)

Between July 1941 and December 1941, the entire Kwangtung Army was brought up to full wartime strength. This required several hundred thousand men in addition to a few whole units moved to Manchukuo. [See Nomanhan]
Being in "reserve" meant these formations were not on the front line. They were both an offensive and defensive reserve. The IJA long had planned to invade the USSR, and this reserve force was probably tasked with planning for the offensive to Chita. After the front line units breached the line - and presumably were not in good shape - the reserve units would then take over the offensive for the next phase. [Again, see Nomanhan]

[m10bob]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_jap ... 41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).

Since Niehorster was used as the "bible" for IJA, this explains the omission of the 10th Division.
This is an opportunity to point out that Neihorster is notoriously incomplete. It is a generic problem
with all scholarly materials: even if they know something they often don't put it in because the
source material does not meet this or that scholarly test, and if they don't know it at all - it is naturally
omitted. We act as if such a source is complete when in fact it is not. There is ample material on 10th
Division to say it dates from the 19th century, it was important in earlier wars, and it was encountered
and destroyed as a functional unit by the US Army in the Philippines. How it can be missing from a
very good listing like this one is impossible for us to know - but the lesson should be learned that no single
source is complete or to be wholly trusted - in particular one not in the native language or officially issued
by the service in question. If Niehorster lists it, it probably was there (although not always where he lists it
at). If not - it only means he didn't know about it - or sometimes knew but for whatever technical reason still
didn't list it.

You just dusted off some cobwebs.
Was the 10th not notorious while serving under Gen Homma???
BTW, I envy Fletchers' detailed sources...

[highblooded]

Hello,

Niehorster does list the 10th Div under The triangular Division section.

Another problem I found is the 31st Inf Div. This is in the game (slot 1430) but according to a few sources it was not created until March 22, 1943( in Bangkok).

Thanks for reviewing this divisions situation glad I brought it up, I was assuming the major units were all well documented and in place.

[el cid again]

If N lists 10th as triangular, why is it not in his Dec 7, 1941 OB? Since the division dates to the 19th century, this seems quite odd. But note that ALL data bases contain errors - and ours is no exception.

31st I will look up.

[Fletcher]

IJA Thirty First Division (第31師団, Hohei Sanju-ichi Shidan?) was an infantry division in the Imperial Japanese Army. Its call sign was the Furious Division (烈兵団, Retsu Heidan)
The 31st Division was raised in Bangkok, Thailand, on 22 March 1943 out of reservists from Fukuoka prefecture. It was assigned to the Japanese 15th Army.
The order of battle for the 31st Division included:
*58th Infantry Regiment (Takada)
*124th Infantry Regiment (Fukuoka)
*138th Infantry Regiment (Nara)
*31st Mountain Art Regiment
*31st Engineering Regiment
*31st Transportation Regiment

Reference: Madej, W. Victor. Japanese Armed Forces, OOB 1939-1945.
(2 volumens) Allentown, PA: 1981.

For other hand, I can not find 31st Division at Neihorster list.

[hueglin]

I don't know if this will help, or make things more confusing, but in "Demobilizing the Japanese Army - Part 3" there is listed a 10th Independent Infantry Brigade as being demobilized at Taiyuan in Shansi Province, China, on Sept 17, 1945. Oh the accompanying map it appears to be part of the I Corps.

From what I have read on this post, this is probably not the same formation as the 10th Infantry Division, but I thought the info may clarify some of the references.

P.S. The same source places the 10th Infantry Division in Luzon Philippines in 1945 as part of 14th Army.

[Fletcher]

May be IJA 10th Infantry MIXED Brigade belonged XII Army in the Sainan area.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If N lists 10th as triangular, why is it not in his Dec 7, 1941 OB? Since the division dates to the 19th century, this seems quite odd. But note that ALL data bases contain errors - and ours is no exception.

31st I will look up.

10th Infantry Division is in Niehorsters' Dec 7, 1941 orbat (directly subordinate to Kwantung Theater Army). It is in stock and CHS as well (but wrongly placed at Port Arthur; actually it was at Chiamusssu/Kiamusze then), only missing in RHS.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

IJA Thirty First Division (第31師団, Hohei Sanju-ichi Shidan?) was an infantry division in the Imperial Japanese Army. Its call sign was the Furious Division (烈兵団, Retsu Heidan)
The 31st Division was raised in Bangkok, Thailand, on 22 March 1943 out of reservists from Fukuoka prefecture. It was assigned to the Japanese 15th Army.
The order of battle for the 31st Division included:
*58th Infantry Regiment (Takada)
*124th Infantry Regiment (Fukuoka)
*138th Infantry Regiment (Nara)
*31st Mountain Art Regiment
*31st Engineering Regiment
*31st Transportation Regiment

Reference: Madej, W. Victor. Japanese Armed Forces, OOB 1939-1945.
(2 volumens) Allentown, PA: 1981.

For other hand, I can not find 31st Division at Neihorster list.

Madej is partly wrong here: The infantry regiments that formed 31st Division were not newly formed by reservist, they were regiments that had become independent when 13th, 18th, and 116th Divisions were triangularized.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

May be IJA 10th Infantry MIXED Brigade belonged XII Army in the Sainan area.

Never heard about a 10th Mixed Brigade, and 10th Independent Mixed Brigade had been used in the formation of 59th Division in 1942. Probably 10th Independent Infantry Brigade (this one had been formed in China in 1944)?