18th-19th Century Warfare

[Jason Petho]

Throwing out some thoughts.

A few questions:

Assuming the engine could be modified, some questions:

1. What would a good unit size, map hex size and turn length be for Napoleon style battles?

2. What would a good unit size, map hex size and turn length be for American Civil War style battles?

3. What would a good unit size, map hex size and turn length be for Crimean War style battles?

4. What would a good unit size, map hex size and turn length be for Boer War style battles?

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

Could we include:
 
5. The Austro-Prussian War of 1868?
 
6. The Franco-Prussian War of 1870?
 
7. I think France and Italy (the Kingdom of Sardinia?) fought Austria in 1859.
 
8. I think the Prussians fought the Danes in 1866.
 
Regarding the unit size, map hex size, and turn length, I'd have to give that more thought.  I would think you'd want them to be the same for all the conflicts, but I guess your question is whether the various conflicts would lend themselves to the same sizes and lengths.  A game that could cover the entire century would appear to be more marketable than one that addressed only one of the conflicts.
 
 

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank
Regarding the unit size, map hex size, and turn length, I'd have to give that more thought.  I would think you'd want them to be the same for all the conflicts, but I guess your question is whether the various conflicts would lend themselves to the same sizes and lengths.  A game that could cover the entire century would appear to be more marketable than one that addressed only one of the conflicts.

You are correct indeed, and would be preferable.

Jason Petho

[vadersson]

Let me pose the question a different way. I there any reason that 250 meters and 6 minutes would not work for other conflicts?

(I can just see some freaky time travel story where Panzer IIIs are attacking Confederate soldiers...)

Thanks,
Duncan

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: vadersson

Let me pose the question a different way. I there any reason that 250 meters and 6 minutes would not work for other conflicts?

(I can just see some freaky time travel story where Panzer IIIs are attacking Confederate soldiers...)

Thanks,
Duncan

I am not well versed in the above conflicts, so I am not sure. Based on some of my very limited readings, I have noticed that the ranges of personal weapons are much shorter, the time to manuever are slower, action generally happens at a slower pace.

100 meter hexes, 15 - 30 minute turns, company sized units?

I just don't know enough about it to make calls like that.

Jason Petho

[Arkady]

maybe except Boer War I assume following specification:
battalion sized units / possible company sized units for special types/
100-150 meters per hex
15-20 minutes per turn

most important thing in engine should be formation change - column, line, square

[1925frank]

Throughout this period, everyone traveled on foot, on horse, or by wagon.  To the extent the roads improved, that's already part of the engine by virtue of the map hexes.  To the extend wagons might have improved, that too is already part of the engine, because you can differentiate movement points for each unit.  Standardization would appear possible.
 
Regarding length of turn, I don't see why that would have to vary.  To the extent a unit can fire more rapidly as the century progresses, that can be handled through the cost of action points to fire and, in the process, how frequently a unit can fire in the span of one turn.
 
Other conflicts are the Spanish-American War of 1898 and the Mexican-American War of 1848.  If you could standardize the product, it would lend itself to all sorts of expansions.

[TAIL GUNNER]

I'd check out the Talonsoft Battleground games and then go from there....[8D]

[Gudadantza]

The age of Rifles with Campaign series engine? mmm... I think It is possible and very interesting...

[1925frank]

The Napoleonic Wars might have been the last chapter to an earlier era.  That may have been the last conflict where cavalry could be used effectively as shock troops and where infantry formed squares to counteract that.  Cavalry as shock troops stuck around for decades, but cavalry charges are frequently thereafter associated with debacles.  The Charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimean War is an example.  I think there are examples of that too in the Austro-Prussian War by the Austians, and I believe there's a famous example of that in the Franco-Prussian War by the French.  The American Civil War is basically devoid of cavalry as shock troops.  The Napoleonic Wars might be better grouped with 18th century warfare.  If grouped with 19th century warfare, the Napoleonic Wars might require a whole new set of rules that would largely be inapplicable to the latter conflicts.  I don't know how you'd adapt formation changes to this engine.
 
Jason has mentioned on other posts that cavalry as shock troops have been added to the Campaign Series, but I'd imagine you'd have to be very selective about how and when you used them.  Even now cavalry can be used as shock troops in open terrain and receive a significant assault bonus.  I remember East Front even has (or had) a scenario depicting a Soviet cavalry charge against German machine guns.  Try winning that one as the Soviets.
 
The Battleground Series, mentioned above, is an excellent suggestion.  I don't recall what the unit sizes, hex sizes, or turn lengths were in those games.
 
Regarding facing, the engine has facing rules for armor.  I would think a 19th Century Warfare game would require facing rules.
 
I'm intrigued with the idea Jason threw out.  It'd be kind of like a Operation Art of War - Century of Warfare but for the 19th Century and on the more tactical scale of the Campaign Series.
 
I'm not a history expert by any stretch, but these are some of my thoughts.  Feel free to correct me.

[andym]

250 meters is pushing it for a musket!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

[Ladmo]

250 meters might be possible for a musket - if you fire it out of a cannon.

[Temple]

Obviously the best solution is for Matrix to get the rights to SSI's Age of Rifles. Actually it's still quite playable under DOSbox, but I suspect it could benefit from a new publisher. If you do, please *please* do not mess with the manual, it's very good and will be a great help to everyone [:)]. The graphics are pretty garish on modern equipment, so you could update that however.

[Jason Petho]

When I have some time (HA!), I will tinker with putting together a mod for the American Civil War. It will be a quick and dirty test using the CS engine.

Since the CS engine will be used, there will be notable limitations, but we'll see what comes of it.

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

There's an author named Wawro who wrote books on the Austro-Prussian War and the Franco-Prussian War. 
 
In the Austro-Prussian War, the Austrians opted for muskets and assault tactics, and the Prussians opted for rifles, and the particular type they used was called a Needle rifle.  The Prussians reasoned assaults were suicidal with rifles.  The Prussians proved themselves correct.  The Austrians suffered horrific losses when attempting to assault Prussian positions, and they were no match for the Prussians in a firefight.  The Austrians had one advantage -- artillery, and the Prussians took notice of that.
 
In the Franco-Prussian War two years later, the Prussian Needle rifle was already obsolescent.  The French had a rifle that I think was called a Chassepot.  Doctrinally, the French failed to take advantage of their superior rifles.  Based upon their experience against the Austrians, the Prussians had beefed up their artillery considerably and had an advantage over the French there.  Additionally, regarding cavalry, the French opted for cavalry as heavy assault units, and the Prussians opted for cavalry as light reconnaissance units and deep-penetration harrassment units.  I think the Prussians were using Jeb Stuart as their inspiration.
 
The American Civil War had both muskets and rifles.  I think cavalry was used primarily as reconnaissance. 
 
Regarding the 250 meters, I think it's been mentioned before that just because the hexes are 250 meters does not mean the troops are far apart.  They might be nose to nose.  Obviously, you might and probably would want to reduce the scale.
 
I'm not familiar with Age of Rifles.  The CS engine is a proven winner.  The question you're posing is whether it can be adapted to 19th Century Warfare.  I have my doubts about adapting it to the Napoleonic Wars, but I think it might adapt fairly well to later conflicts in the 19th Century.
 
Good luck!
 
 

[1925frank]

I think the History Channel did an episode on Gettysburg, and one of the questions was how the Union Cavalry (Buford?) was able to hold up the Confederate Infantry on the first day.  I think the answer was the Union Cavalry had rifles that could be reloaded three or four times faster than a musket and were more accurate than a musket.  Consequently, even though the Confederate Infantry might have had a 3-to-1 or 4-to-1 advantage numerically, they were more or less equal in terms of firepower and, when coupled with accuracy, might have even been at a little disavantage.  I think the losses the Confederates suffered on the first day came back to haunt them on the second and third days.  I get interrupted a million times during a single program, so someone might have the numbers more accurately than I've presented them here, but I think you get the idea.
 
The CS engine can reflect these types of advantage/disadvantages. 

[TAIL GUNNER]

Found this little bit of info on The Wargamer about Battleground 2: Gettysburg.

"Gettysburg is a regiment level wargame with each hex representing 125 yards and each turn is equal to 20 minutes."

[Ladmo]

I attempted to do a Little Bighorn mod but, in the end, could not quite get things to act the way I needed them to and have abandoned it in favour of something more contemporary. I love the CS engine, but its designers had in mind a specific type and era of combat and I wonder how successful any 19th Century mod can be until someone with first rate programming knowledge figures out who to get into the guts of this thing and operate. I could be wrong, but after some recent tinkering this is my experience.

I think the ideal 19th came would be a hybrid of CS, the Battleground Series, and some of the more advanced features of TOAW. Come to think of it, that kind of hybrid would be appealing for any era.

Still, I hope someone gets out there and proves my ideas completely wrong.

[JoMc67]

Jason,
       I personally like the ACW but think this basic structure below can be used for many of the 18th or 19 Century Warfare battles.
Each unit = a Battalion/Regiment, 1 hex = 100 meters, each turn = 15 minutes.
I also agree with Juggalo, check out the Battleground series from Talonsoft.
          Joe
                 

[Huib]

Check also out with the Civil War games of HPS. The manuals are interesting. If I recall well it mentions the choice of hex size and mentions and turn timespans being varible/ flexible. The latter I have been for stating a long time as being applicable to CS too.

Huib