WITP and me

[Charbroiled]

I started a scale model of the USS Constitution before I got married. Had it built up through the hull. Once I got married, funding was diverted. [:(]

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

You think they are more expensive now than what they wre 10-20 years ago?

I haven't put together any models since I was a kid, but in recent months/years I've heard about - what else - law suits over models. It seems that some of the companies and their corporate descendants that built the planes (and maybe other equipment too) that are being modeled have gone after the model makers claiming infringement on trademarks and the like. I know Grumman was involved, as were others. Apparently they were looking for serious money. Model makers had to make the choice of hiking prices quite a bit or not building any of those.

The big counter argument of course is that the public paid for the gear with tax money, etc. but who knows exactly what it would hinge on in court. Too bad.

So, without direct knowledge, I have to say they likely are much more expensive than they need to be, and way more than 20 years ago.

[TOMLABEL]

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Hey! I'm 40 and my wife still accuses me of being a little kid [:D]

Same here. Especially every time she goes into the closet full of unbuilt kits.

TOMLABEL

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

You think they are more expensive now than what they wre 10-20 years ago?

It depends on how you look at it. You get more than you did 20 years ago and currencies have devaluated from inflation.

Ebay is a great leveler. If you shop carefully, you can get up to 50% off new kits there. The online kit retailers have good sales too. I only paid retail for a few kits in my collection. I got some for sweat equity by buying large collections and parting them out. I kept a few I wanted and ended up getting them for free in the end.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
I haven't put together any models since I was a kid, but in recent months/years I've heard about - what else - law suits over models. It seems that some of the companies and their corporate descendants that built the planes (and maybe other equipment too) that are being modeled have gone after the model makers claiming infringement on trademarks and the like. I know Grumman was involved, as were others. Apparently they were looking for serious money. Model makers had to make the choice of hiking prices quite a bit or not building any of those.

The big counter argument of course is that the public paid for the gear with tax money, etc. but who knows exactly what it would hinge on in court. Too bad.

So, without direct knowledge, I have to say they likely are much more expensive than they need to be, and way more than 20 years ago.

This situation is one of the most ridiculous lawsuits you can imagine. The big airplane makers have the money to legistlate the small guys out of business and that's what they will do if the small guys put up much of a fight. Tamiya is the biggest model maker in the world, but they are tiny compared to Boeing.

The model makers have two arguments on their side, but they are only using one. One argument is the one you state here, the military equipment was made with government money on government contracts, so the designs should be public domain. The other argument, which I haven't heard is that these companies sat on any rights they may have had when the first models were made and therefore anything that might have been protected is public domain. The trademark and copyright laws are very clear that to keep your rights, as owner, you need to vigorously pursue anybody who has violated their rights as soon as they become aware of it. If they don't the trademark or other material becomes public domain.

The aircraft makers only started making a fuss a couple of years ago, but the first kits plastic kits came out before World War II and before plastic, there were wood kits. Boeing can lay claim to rights to the 787 because it's new, but I don't even think they could lay claim to a model of a 747 since they didn't make a squawk when the first kit was released in 1969.

The aircraft companies claim that it's liability. If jr chokes on a prop for a B-17, they are afraid of getting sued. My SO is a lawyer and we've talked about this. If Boeing was included in such a lawsuit, they would be out of it in 15 minutes.

I think the real problem is that the aircraft makers are all run by bean counters now who are trying to milk every dime out of every avenue they can. Royalties on plastic models would only ammount to a tiny fraction of the profit on a single airplane, but they see it as some kind of magical revenue stream.

Models always were a fairly small market and it's even smaller today. A huge seller today sells 10,000 copies. Most are only a few thousand. The biggest seller of all time is the Star Trek Enterprise which sold about 1 million over 35 years.

Tamiya is the only company that has caved in so far. Their kits always were among the most expensive, but for the kits where they are paying royalties, the prices are $5 to $20 more. Their 1/32 F-16 kit is $175-$185 retail, depending on the version. I'm sure it's a nice kit, but I won't be buying one. I have read that if they weren't paying a royalty to Lockheed, it would have been around $150. Still pretty expensive, but still a difference of close to 15%.

Bill

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

You think they are more expensive now than what they wre 10-20 years ago?

I haven't put together any models since I was a kid, but in recent months/years I've heard about - what else - law suits over models. It seems that some of the companies and their corporate descendants that built the planes (and maybe other equipment too) that are being modeled have gone after the model makers claiming infringement on trademarks and the like. I know Grumman was involved, as were others. Apparently they were looking for serious money. Model makers had to make the choice of hiking prices quite a bit or not building any of those.

The big counter argument of course is that the public paid for the gear with tax money, etc. but who knows exactly what it would hinge on in court. Too bad.

So, without direct knowledge, I have to say they likely are much more expensive than they need to be, and way more than 20 years ago.

Ahh... yes... I remember the fuss with Il-2 "Pacific Fighters" where Grumman aircraft had to be withdrawn... what a darm shame to do that in flight simulations and in diorama models... [:(]


Leo "Apollo11"

[Grotius]

I shouldn't have read this thread, because now I want to try making a model! I suppose a plane would be easier to start with than a ship? Might be fun to try a Zero or a Wildcat. Anyone have suggestions on where to start?

By the way, the only models I've ever made were, indeed, of the Starship Enterprise. I still have one sitting near me here.

[Feinder]

Monogram-Revell-Airfix are the "classic" model kits. Most of the molds are in fact, 40 years old and haven't changed a whit. They actually used to sell a "Battle of Midway" kit, that had a 1:48 Zero and a Wilcat. Usually complexity and detail go hand in hand. Overall, the Monogram-Revell-Airfix kits aren't terribly difficult (so a good idea if you haven't done a kit in years, or never), but they may not be as accurate to the freakishly purists. But they make for good overall kits.

Next tier are Hasegawa and Tamiya. They're a little more expensive, but have a better variety of kits, and you can often get the specific varients (so you could find a kit of Bf-109E, Bf-109G2, etc). Personally, these are the ones I prefer.

In "most" cases, you get what you pay for. But not necessarily. Monogram/Revell-Airfix aren't terribly expensive, and provide a quality (if not for purists) kits. You pay more for Hasegawa and Tamiya, but they're better kits. But some of the many import brands you pay more, for utter crap. There is a Czech company and Russian one that utterly suck (I bought a few kits from them, the molds just didn't fit right, very little surface details (altho the models were large enough that they SHOULD have). I ended just chucking them.

-F-

[FeurerKrieg]

I'm with all you modeling guys. I have the money to buy models I could never afford as a kid. As usual though, no time to build them. Nor space for that matter.

I'm waiting for the first kid to move out so I can turn their room into a WWII model building room.

I was reading some iteresting stuff the other day on ways to make realistic looking water to mount your ships in. It is pretty neat how 'real' people can make scale stuff look these days.

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/tnt1/001-100/TNT067_making-water_Geraths/tnt067.htm

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

I'm with all you modeling guys. I have the money to buy models I could never afford as a kid. As usual though, no time to build them. Nor space for that matter.

I'm waiting for the first kid to move out so I can turn their room into a WWII model building room.

I was reading some iteresting stuff the other day on ways to make realistic looking water to mount your ships in. It is pretty neat how 'real' people can make scale stuff look these days.

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/tnt1/001-100/TNT067_making-water_Geraths/tnt067.htm

WOW!!! [X(]

This is relly spectacular (and the paint job on the model itself is top notch with "wear & tear")!


Leo "Apollo11"

[FeurerKrieg]

There is a nice article elsewhere on the site about using salt spray and rinse method to create realistic looking wear and tear.

Lots of good stuff there if you poke around.

[wdolson]

ORIGINAL: Grotius

I shouldn't have read this thread, because now I want to try making a model! I suppose a plane would be easier to start with than a ship? Might be fun to try a Zero or a Wildcat. Anyone have suggestions on where to start?

By the way, the only models I've ever made were, indeed, of the Starship Enterprise. I still have one sitting near me here.

1/48 scale is the most common these days. They are large neough to have some decent detail, but small enough not to take up a lot of space. Hasegawa makes the best 1/48 scale Zeros on the market. They recently released a collector's set with a kit of every version of the Zero ever built, including the prototype. Tamiya has an absolutely gorgeous Wildcat in 1/48 scale, as well as most of the WW II marks of the Corsair, which are also fantastic kits. Hasegawa and Tamiya are both a bit more expensive but fewer headaches than most other brands.

An American company called Accurate Miniatures has kits of many US Navy aircraft in 1/48 (though not the Wildcat). AM makes some of the best kits in the world. They have F3Fs, the complete SBD line except the -6, a series of Vindicators, as well as most of the WW II versions of the TBF/TBM. Among their other kits is a B-25 kit has a full interior including a toilet and a copy of Life Magazine.

If you want to get into larger scales, both the Zero and Wildcat exist in 1/32 scale and the Zero has been rendered in 1/24 by a Chinese company called Trumpeter (A6M2 and Rufe) and also by Bandai (A6M5). The Bandai kit is hard to find these days, but it's an older kit. The Trumpeter kit has only been out a few years. It has nice detail, but they got the shape of the nose wrong.

In 1/32 scale, Trumpeter has a Wildcat (also released in North America by Hobby Craft out of Canada) and there is also an old Revell kit. The Trumpeter kit is generally well designed and has very good detail. Just about every Japanese company has come out with a 1/32 Zero. There is an old kit originally released by Tomy of the A6M2, that has been re-released by Swallow and Dyushua. It has nice external detail, but a horrible cockpit and no engine detail. 20th Century Toy, which releases mostly kid's toys has a 1/32 Zero kit which isn't bad. It usually runs for under $10 at Walmart, which is a steal these days.

Hasegawa has a good 1/32 A6M5, but Tamiya takes the prize with an A6M2 and an A6M5. The Tamiya kits retail for around $100, but they are pretty close to the most detailed 1/32 scale kits ever made. Tamiya had a chance to take apart and examine a real Zero. They reproduced everything from the back of the pilot's seat to the prop in exact detail as well as the wing armament and oleo landing gear struts that really work.

Bill

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

One of the fun things about being an adult (with a reasonably paying job), is that we can often afford to indulge in those "childhood fantasies" of getting the entire WW2 model collection with the "wouldn't it be awesome" paint to go with it.

Funny you should say that. I would have to put myself in this category. As a kid I made loads of models - aircraft, ships, tanks, the works. All were eventually lost or destroyed. Fast forward many years, and I can now afford to buy some of the very nice 1/350 WW2 ships. A few years ago, after not having built any kits since I left school, I bought and built a 1/350 model of HMS Prince of Wales, and had a grand old time. It now gets pride of place on our living room bookshelf. One of these days I will build a few more (......one of these days......).

[Terminus]

Yeah, "one of those days"... I also built tons of models back in school (was probably too young and impatient for it)... Tried to get back into it a few years back, and found that my manual dexterity (not great back then) has gone the way of the Dodo. Too much typing...[:D]

[Feinder]

The Tamiya kits retail for around $100, but they are pretty close to the most detailed 1/32 scale kits ever made.

Wdolson gives a great analysis. But just to clarify, it's the 1/32 kit that will run you around $100. Most 1:48 kits from Hasegawa and Tamiya are $18 - $26.

Revell-Monogram-Airfix usually run you $14 - $22 (a little cheaper), but you get a better kit for the money with Hasegawa and Tamiya. Frankly, I don't by -that- many kits anyway, so I'd spend a little more to get a better kit (the price difference is a trip to Taco Bell, so no biggie). Besides, if you're "just getting back into the hobby", you're going to end up spending $100 on paints anyway. [;)]

Funny, I've got the set-up for acrylics, and have used them, and I realize that the best modelers use acrylics, but I still just love the enamels.

-F-

[Apollo11]

Hi all,

I think that 1:48 is more than enough for size and detail (heck I have B-29 in 1:48 and it is _HUGE_ [:D])... the 1:32 is IMHO too big...


Leo "Apollo11"

[MineSweeper]

If you want to get real serious, check out these models.....expensive and very time consuming....but what detail[:)]

http://steelnavy.com/index.htm

[AU Tiger_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

" I have a 1:1 1858 Model .577 British Enfield Rifled Musket. It is loads of fun, until I wake up with a very sore shoulder."

Hey, AU, are you a member of the NSSA, or a re-enactor?

No, I am not a member of the NSSA, but their website is intriguing. [:'(]
http://www.nssa.us/

I used to do some re-enacting, thus the musket, but am currently inactive due to time constraints, but I intend to return to the fold within a few months.

[bradfordkay]

Cute... try www.n-ssa.org

I used to be a member of the NSSA (1st Regt Engrs, PACS), but had to quit when I went to college (the team was in Virginia - too far from Athens for a poor college kid). I sold my '63 Remington when I graduated college - needed the bucks to pay rent while looking for work. It didn't matter as much because moths had infested my dad's place where my uniform was stored.



During high school I also worked for the Park Service in summer (Richmond Battlefield and Kennessaw Mtn Battlefield). I miss those days... it was a lot of fun.

[Canoerebel]

I got my first model in the late '60s when my parents left me with an elderly aunt in Georgia while they went on vacation.  It was the USS Atlanta (CL) and I was smitten.  I made many models.  Some of the ships ended up in a big pail of water, decorated with a line of modeling glue.  When you applied a match to the wet glue, thick streams of dark smoke billowed out.  Quite a sight.

Regarding reenacting, I know a man a few miles up the road who is now in his late 70s.  Both his grandfathers were Confederate soldiers and a great-grandfather was killed in action at South Mountain, Md.  He has part of the uniform and equipment of one of his grandfathers - jacket and haversack.  Finding folks with amazingly close ties to the Confederacy is still pretty common here in the South.

[ChezDaJez]

When I was a youth, I built my plane and ship models with firecrackers inside them. Once I got tired of looking at the display, outside to the sandbox we went. I'd pour a little extra testor's glue on them, soak some paper airplanes in kerosene, light them amd have them crash kamikaze style into the model being sacrificed... It was a very satisfying method of culling the collection...

Sicko!!! The destructive inclinations from our youth have been passed down through genetics. And we wonder why our children are the way they are!

Personally, I used a BB gun and Dad's .22 cal at the pond behind our house. Those armor piercing .22s sure took care of that Iowa armor!!!

Chez