Units disobey op fire order bug

[jimair1]

My Sherman tankers may face court martials if this ISN'T a bug.

Playing Kucher's Ragtag Circus with version 2.0. Sherman tanks op fire is set to fire at hard targets only at long range. Soft and other targets are turned off. A german unit fires at them doing no damage. The Shermans expend all op fire at an empty halftrack. My opponent seeing this brings in his Panthers and lays waste to the defenseless Shermans.

Note that unit settings are identical for all of the Sherman platoons including the HQ platoon.

[1925frank]

If I'm not mistaken, halftracks are hard targets, so your Shermans followed their orders.
 
There are rules of engagement about using halftracks to draw off opportunity fire.  That doesn't mean your opponent violated those rules.  There's still a lot of flexibility to use halftracks to draw off opportunity fire and to expose your units.
 
I think I've read where some players turn opportunity fire off because it lacks dependability or, in your example, discernment.  I've had occasions where I wanted my units to use opportunity fire and they withheld fire. 
 

[serg3d]

Some halftracks are hard and some are soft targets. AA halftracks are soft.

[1925frank]

Thanks Serg3d.  That's correct.  Not all halftracks are hard. 
 
That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?
 
Also, now that I've thought about it, if you set your ranges in a certain way, the computer won't respect them.  If your globals are shorter than you individual settings, the global shorter settings will control.  Jimair1's problem would not appear to be that particular one though, because my understanding is his individual settings were set at not to fire at soft targets.

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?

No, it is not true.

Jason Petho

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: jimair1

My Sherman tankers may face court martials if this ISN'T a bug.

Playing Kucher's Ragtag Circus with version 2.0. Sherman tanks op fire is set to fire at hard targets only at long range. Soft and other targets are turned off. A german unit fires at them doing no damage. The Shermans expend all op fire at an empty halftrack. My opponent seeing this brings in his Panthers and lays waste to the defenseless Shermans.

Note that unit settings are identical for all of the Sherman platoons including the HQ platoon.

Unfortunately, since you mentioned "empty halftracks", one can assume they did carry infantry at one time, making them armoured. Meaning, they fall in the armour class, which means your OP-FIRE did what it was supposed to do.

There are tactical ways to get around someone "abusing" their halftracks, but the easiest thing to do would be to set up some Rules of Engagements. Here is a classic set:


http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/online/page5.htm

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That raises another question.  I've heard too that your units will generally follow your settings, but they will occasionally disobey those settings, not as a bug, but just as a random factor inbedded into the program.  Can anyone enlighten me whether this is true?

No, it is not true.

Jason Petho

That ends that mystery. Thank you, Jason.

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

That ends that mystery. Thank you, Jason.

Anytime!

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

ORIGINAL: Jason Petho

There are tactical ways to get around someone "abusing" their halftracks, but the easiest thing to do would be to set up some Rules of Engagements. Here is a classic set:

http://www.theblitz.org/member_sites/online/page5.htm

Big Dawg has a recent thread on the Blitz that fleshes out the subject of halftrack usage well.

I thought you could remove units to avoid destruction, but the Blitz says you shouldn't to prevent a victory. In my mind, the only reason you'd ever remove a unit is to prevent your opponent from getting points, that is, from winning, so I interpret the Blitz to say, effectively, you should never remove a unit (unless it's on an exit hex).

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Big Dawg has a recent thread on the Blitz that fleshes out the subject of halftrack usage well.

I thought you could remove units to avoid destruction, but the Blitz says you shouldn't to prevent a victory. In my mind, the only reason you'd ever remove a unit is to prevent your opponent from getting points, that is, from winning, so I interpret the Blitz to say, effectively, you should never remove a unit (unless it's on an exit hex).

It depends on the scenario. The victory conditions could be set that to achieve a major victory the destruction of most or all of the opponents units is required. This is especially true of smaller scenarios.

For larger scenarios, it is common for players to remove their non-combat forces (trucks, wagons, etc), but combat forces must remain on the map.

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

Thanks, Jason.
 
As a new player, I wouldn't have a good feel for when removal would be acceptable, so the best practice, I guess, would be to check with the opponent when the game starts.
 
For new players like me, Big Dawg's thread discusses the use of passenger halftracks behind your front lines, in the front lines, and behind the enemy's front lines.  You're given apparently total discretion behind your front lines.  It also discusses how you can use passenger halftracks anyway you want provided the infantry component of the passenger halftrack is within a certain distance; however, there was some disagreement about how close the infantry units had to be.  I don't know if the thread exhausted the subject, but I found it very helpful. 

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: 1925frank

Thanks, Jason.

As a new player, I wouldn't have a good feel for when removal would be acceptable, so the best practice, I guess, would be to check with the opponent when the game starts.

For new players like me, Big Dawg's thread discusses the use of passenger halftracks behind your front lines, in the front lines, and behind the enemy's front lines.  You're given apparently total discretion behind your front lines.  It also discusses how you can use passenger halftracks anyway you want provided the infantry component of the passenger halftrack is within a certain distance; however, there was some disagreement about how close the infantry units had to be.  I don't know if the thread exhausted the subject, but I found it very helpful. 

Ah, the good ol' halftrack debate. It comes around every six months or so and is always lively. There is a lot that is open to interpretation and is best to ensure both you and your opponent are on the same page when it comes to rules of engagements.

Jason Petho

[vadersson]

If halftracks are so dangerous, why not increase the VP value to reflect thier actual value? In theory if a halftrack is worth more VP, people will not use them in dangerous duties nearly as much. It seems it would better reflect the war time belief that halftracks were too valuable to expose to enemy fire while at the same time allowing people to use them as they see fit and suffer the VP loses in return. Just a thought.

Thanks,
Duncan

[Jason Petho]

ORIGINAL: vadersson

If halftracks are so dangerous, why not increase the VP value to reflect thier actual value? In theory if a halftrack is worth more VP, people will not use them in dangerous duties nearly as much. It seems it would better reflect the war time belief that halftracks were too valuable to expose to enemy fire while at the same time allowing people to use them as they see fit and suffer the VP loses in return. Just a thought.

Thanks,
Duncan

There is a new set of halftracks available in the organization editor that do just that. The stock halftracks were left alone as to not imbalance existing scenarios.

Jason Petho

[1925frank]

Great!  I think the best way to handle the problem is to design the game so the player has no incentive to use the unit in an atypical way.  The player effectively polices himself out of self-interest.  That's the surest way to enforce compliance. 
 
The honor code is nice but not always honored.
 

[british exil]

Been following this thread.
I've just played Tarawa and there one gets Amtracs (LVT2).
No I didn't really know what to do with them at first.
1 unload then leave beaches
2 follow units inland as mobile mg nests
3 spotter for naval Arty
4 transport units around the island after most areas safe

I used all 4 points but felt a little uneasy on point 3. Felt it was a bit gamey/unfair
as I never would do that with halftracks or trucks.

What do you think? Open for critic and advice lads.[:'(]

[jimair1]

Thanks Jason.  
 
Color me stupid! 
Well I have always known they were "armoured" halftracks, I had always considered them "soft"  A burst from the halftrack MG never even scratches the paint on my tanks.  There was no mailcious intent of my opponent.   There was one platoon of empty halftracks in an industrial building that I just laid smoke on.   They had been there for two turns since delivering an MG42 platoon.   My intent was to set up an ambush for approaching German tanks.   Instead my Shermans returned op fire and only destroyed 4 of the 6 units there (due to the smoke and cover).
 
Next time I waste the HT's before setting up my ambush!

[1925frank]

ORIGINAL: british exil

Been following this thread.
I've just played Tarawa and there one gets Amtracs (LVT2).
No I didn't really know what to do with them at first.
1 unload then leave beaches
2 follow units inland as mobile mg nests
3 spotter for naval Arty
4 transport units around the island after most areas safe

I used all 4 points but felt a little uneasy on point 3. Felt it was a bit gamey/unfair
as I never would do that with halftracks or trucks.

What do you think? Open for critic and advice lads.[:'(]

I would think they fall in the category of being behind your front lines, so you would be free to use them as you see fit, even if they were spotting beyond the front lines. But wouldn't the armored passenger carriers and trucks be the same? You're drawing a distinction. For game purposes, I'm not sure there is one.

I'm not the expert here. I'm learning.

Wouldn't British Universal Carriers be considered amored personnel carriers? Weren't they used as recon?

[british exil]

As spotter units I meant they they were already unloaded. But as you said they were behind my lines, but still had bad feeling about using them that way. they couldn't use their mg's as they were too far away any they were not prtecting my flanks as I was attacking the Island.

They were being fired upon, being empty they seemed to resist enemy fire more thah being loaded.
And I didn't mention I used them to distract enemy fire from my fighting units.[8|]
Now that might be classed as dishonourable warfare tactics.

[1925frank]

I'm not a military expert, but isn't there always some poor smuck who's asked to run across the plaza to draw fire so all the other soldiers, who are hiding, can hopefully spot the sniper and kill the sniper?
 
You're doing essentially that, but my understanding is you're allowed to do that, as long as you're behind your own lines or within three to five hexes of the infantry they were transporting. 
 
I guess the objective is to ensure the halftracks and trucks don't go off on their own combat missions, which would apparently be an unorthadox use of them. 
 
On the other hand, they may be co-opted into an attack in conjunction with other fighting units, even if it is only to draw fire.  Again, I'm not a military expert, but apparently that usage isn't so far-fetched. 
 
So if I used an empty truck or halftrack for recon by death so the accompanying infantry could later cross an open area without anyone shooting at them (or if in a city, so they could get close enough to shoot without being shot at), would anyone complain?  My understanding is that's acceptable.
 
As the game wears on though, I would imagine I and my opponent would run out of trucks and halftracks.