Nagumo has too many Zeros?

[decaro]

Thank you as any help for the Allies in the Midway scenario is appreciated.

[bink]

[quote[
Haven't heard hide nor hair from SSG recently; maybe it's a holiday weekend in Merry Ole England.
[/quote]

Joe,

SSG is in Australia! And they did have a holiday to celebrate the APEC conference!

bink

[decaro]

Ooops.

[NimitsTexan]

Actually, if you read Shattered Sword and look at the Fighter Operations timline in the back, at least 3 of the 6th Kokutai Zeros were launched from Akagi.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: NimitsTexan

Actually, if you read Shattered Sword and look at the Fighter Operations timline in the back, at least 3 of the 6th Kokutai Zeros were launched from Akagi.

Unfortunately I didn't get that far in the book, but I recently read (page 149) that the Agagi hikocho, Cdr. Masuda, had "seen no reason not to use the 'cargo' aircraft," so 3 of the 6th Ku Zeros under Lt. Tadashi were sent up as CAP. But I was waiting to get past the battle to determine if any more of these planes were similarly employed before posting another correction. However, since the timeline (Chronology of Jap Fighter Ops, Appendix 9?) is at the back of the book, we can assume that the balance of the wing -- 18 or so planes -- was not used during this battle.

Of course, the 6th Ku were never actually needed as CAP for Midway's airfield, either. Maybe SSG can make an alternative Midway scenario that uses the entire 6th Ku to see what difference it makes.

But if SSG agrees to fix the cloud cover -- see my "other" post -- so that it runs W/E of Midway instead of N/S, this fighter change may not be that important. I guess it depends on how far SSG is willing to go to remain "historical," or if we are just splitting hairs here.

[NimitsTexan]

Arguably, removing the 6th Kokutai from play could also be ahistorical, since those Zeros were available for duty. That more were not launched had probably more to do with IJN doctrine and the generally fouled up condition of the IJN organization and intelligence in the hour or two prior to the SBD strike. At the very least, the Akagi's 6 should be included.

[decaro]

Since the entire 6th Ku Zero "cargo" was stowed intact aboard the Kido Butai (and 2 other CVLs), it was all potentially available for duty since it was technically "operational," i.e.., not disassembled for storage.

Although the entire battle of Midway showed how inflexible the Japanese were re their battle plans, Agagi hikocho Masuda proved they were all not "Mr Roboto" when he personally decided to use 3 of his six reserved Zeros as CAP.

Perhaps a dice roll for the probability of using all 6 of the 6th Ku for the Agaki is in order, but if we're going to split hairs here, it gets more complicated w/Midway air; there was an equivalent number of night-capable PBYs that scored the only aerial torpedo strike vs. the IJ, but I don't ever recall any such strikes reported in my CaW games.

So this could get ugly.

[Gregor_SSG]

In this discussion, please remember that Carriers at War is a system for recreating WWII carrier battles, not a simulation, down to the last Zero of any one battle. In any battle there will always be details or incidents that can't be simulated without tying everything in knots. We think we've got all the important elements right for battles like Midway, and lets face it, plus or minus 3 Zeroes wouldn't make any difference to the outcome.

Gregor

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

... We think we've got all the important elements right for battles like Midway, and lets face it, plus or minus 3 Zeroes wouldn't make any difference to the outcome.
Gregor

Yes, +/- 3 Zeros isn't going to change anything significant, but 20 or more extra IJ CAP might; the play balance of IJ vs. Allies heavilly favors the former, even if the IJ player first attacks Midway w/Nagumo's CV TGs.

This scenario is not really missing anything, but it is misplacing an important element; scattered cloud cover West and East of Midway over both the IJ and Allied TGs. I've played this scenario a dozen or more times from each side, and the (random) clouds North and South of Midway just doesn't work for the current (historical) placement for all the scenario TGs.

Removing (all) the 6th Ku Zeros and shifting the random clouds to an East/West axis along Midway should help balance this scenario, and that's all I'm asking.

[NimitsTexan]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Removing (all) the 6th Ku Zeros and shifting the random clouds to an East/West axis along Midway should help balance this scenario, and that's all I'm asking.

Well, again, I would not recommend removing all of them. At a bare minimum, 6th Ku A6Ms on Akagi should be included.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: NimitsTexan

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

Removing (all) the 6th Ku Zeros and shifting the random clouds to an East/West axis along Midway should help balance this scenario, and that's all I'm asking.

Well, again, I would not recommend removing all of them. At a bare minimum, 6th Ku A6Ms on Akagi should be included.

After all my fussing about this, I finally decided to go into the CaW editor, loaded the Midway folder, and then entered the "edit squadron" option; Akagi correctly has two squadrons of 9 Zeros each -- escort and CAP -- but there were 3 extra or spare crews w/each squadron (total = 6 planes of the 6th Ku?); I simply deleted one of the squadron's 3 crews, leaving them w/the 3 spare that actually were used as CAP. You can simply leave all 6 crews for both squadrons. However, I have no clue how these 3 spare crews are utilized in the game.

After entering the editor, I also discovered that, compared w/Shattered Sword, Nagumo just has too many planes, period, so I simply edited the squadrons to reflect the latest figures from the IJN flight logs. I also arbitrarilly reallocated their training status and lowered squadron admin ratings to reflect the estimated 15 % squadron attrition since PH; this was much easier to do in the editor than I thought, but I'm not sure what actual effect this has on gameplay.

As for cloud cover, no matter what I do in the edit weather option, I can't get the clouds over the fleets, which is where they were during the actual battle. In any event, I degraded the IJN's scouting training and admin to reflect Cdr. Genda's half-hearted scout plan, as well as the trouble several IJN hvy cruisers had launching their scout planes.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: NimitsTexan

Well, again, I would not recommend removing all of them. At a bare minimum, 6th Ku A6Ms on Akagi should be included.

I left 3 A6M spare crews for each of Akagi's 2 fighter wings (escort and CAP) for a total of 6, although I'm not sure how spare crews are utilized in CaW.

I also changed the ratings of some US air crews, i.e., Best's bombing group on Enterprise was upgraded to Excellent, but Hornet's bombers were downgraded to poor to reflect what historically happened; Shattered Sword said Hornet avaitors crews were "raw," and barely contributed to the battle at Midway.

But probably the most significant edit I made wasn't w/planes; I went into the Ship Class category for the Midway scenario in the CaW editor and changed both Akagi and Kaga from vulnerable to flamable.

[BlindOldUmp]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

But probably the most significant edit I made wasn't w/planes; I went into the Ship Class category for the Midway scenario in the CaW editor and changed both Akagi and Kaga from vulnerable to flamable.

I think I just tripped over the answer to a question. you said " the Ship Class category for the Midway scenario " meaning the database for the platforms & weapons is Per SCENARIO not game wide. Is that a correct understanding ??

[decaro]

All the categories in the editor are ghosted until you load something, so I simply loaded the Midway scenario to edit it; I don't know if that affects other scenarios, but then I don't know any other way of doing it.

[alexs]

Hi Joe,

Changes to scenarios effect that scenario only. In effect, the ship classes that appear over multiple scenarios are duplicate copies, so you can edit the ship class in one scenario without effecting others (as you have done).

Regards
Alex

[OldBoney]

I'm pretty sure the database for each scenario is independent of the other scenarios. Compare the Enterprise as used in the Wake, Midway and Philippine Sea scenarios. The data changes as the ship equipment changes and the crew gets better, even though it's the same basic ship.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: alexs

Hi Joe,

Changes to scenarios effect that scenario only. In effect, the ship classes that appear over multiple scenarios are duplicate copies, so you can edit the ship class in one scenario without effecting others (as you have done).

Regards
Alex

Skip, there's your answer. I assumed as much, but confess I was reluctant to meddle w/the CaW editor after the game first came out. However, I learned by experience that it is very easy to edit an exisiting scenario.

[BlindOldUmp]

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

ORIGINAL: alexs

Hi Joe,

Changes to scenarios effect that scenario only. In effect, the ship classes that appear over multiple scenarios are duplicate copies, so you can edit the ship class in one scenario without effecting others (as you have done).
Regards
Alex

Skip, there's your answer. I assumed as much, but confess I was reluctant to meddle w/the CaW editor after the game first came out. However, I learned by experience that it is very easy to edit an existing scenario.

You are right, the editor is easy to use. I was justt somewhat confused by my lack of ability to generate a ship in Scenario A that persisted to Scenario B. That confusion has now been lifted. Thanks to all for the imput!

[NawlinzVoodoo]

Go get the book 'Midway Inquest', it has the correct OoB. It combines all the other published books and makes corrections or their errors. The author gets his info straight from the pilots and crewmen of the IJN that fought the battle. Very detailed battle anaylsis, down to the minutes. This books blows away all other books ever written on Midway. Should make it very easy for you to make a realistic Midway Scenario Battle. [:D]

[decaro]

I posted the # and types of kido butai strike planes from Sword on the other page of this post; how does it compare w/Midway Inquest?