Battle of Guadalcanal

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Well, I always wondered why they had a diversionary strike at the Aleutians if the plan was to entice the USN out to Midway for the decisive battle ...

The AL plan was imposed upon Yamamoto from higher HQ. Re Shattered Sword, the object of Op AL was to destroy strategic points in order to check enemy "air and ship maneuvers in this area," but the wx was so rough off the Aleutians that these "maneuvers" were difficult at best. Just ask any crab fishermen.

By getting a foothold in the Aleutians, IJ also hoped to interupt commo links between the US and USSR in order to adversely affect supply convoys between them thru the Berents Sea, and to help protect Midway's northern flank after MI was successful and the island secured.

Re Sword, Attu and Kiska proved to be nothing more than consolation prizes for the failure at MI.

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

Naval personel regarded Midway as the turning point.  The Marines regarded Guadalcanal as the turning point.

Being neither, I always thought of Midway as the turning point.  Guadalcanal was a campaign rather than a battle.  Without the loss of four carriers at Midway, Guadalcanal would have looked much different.

Historically, I've always considered Pearl Harbor as the "Turning Point". In the entire history of the United States we have never been so united and "pissed off" as December 8th, 1941. Didn't matter what the Japanese did after that..., or how long it took..., Japan was going to burn before it was over.

[Canoerebel]

I've always thought Doolittle's Raid was the turning point.  It caused the Japanese to freak out, change plans, and go off half-cocked with several missions, and it showed just how gutsy and innovative Americans can be.  It was a small operation that should have meant nothing, but the ramifications were tremendous.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I've always thought Doolittle's Raid was the turning point.  It caused the Japanese to freak out, change plans, and go off half-cocked with several missions ...

I'm not sure it changed plans, but the Raid was the catalyst that helped put MI into motion; the victory at MI led to the succesful action at Guadalcanal, and so on ...

[John 3rd]

EVERYONE must read Shattered Sword!  Those that have have made good comments about how the Aleutians and Midway plans evolved and are now placed in proper context.  If you haven't PLEASE buy and read that book--several times.  It is magnificent.

I, actually, think the real mistake was The Port Moresby Invasion that led to the Battle of the Coral Sea.  Without that battle, the Japanese would have had the full KB for Midway and the Americans would have had 4 CVs.  While we lost Lexington, the effect of losing BOTH Shokaku and Zuikaku made it possible for the Americans to win at Midway.  THINK about had the events unfolded as they did what would have happened to the Americans if it was Hiryu, Shokaku, AND Zuikaku left to launch the counterstrike.  While the Japanese would have lost Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu, they would have taken ALL three American CVs.

This would have left the Japanese with the 3 CV of the KB, Junyo/Hiyo, and several CVLs versus...Wasp...for the foreseeable future.  THAT would have been pretty...interesting...

My .02!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
I, actually, think the real mistake was The Port Moresby Invasion that led to the Battle of the Coral Sea.  Without that battle, the Japanese would have had the full KB for Midway and the Americans would have had 4 CVs.  While we lost Lexington, the effect of losing BOTH Shokaku and Zuikaku made it possible for the Americans to win at Midway.  THINK about had the events unfolded as they did what would have happened to the Americans if it was Hiryu, Shokaku, AND Zuikaku left to launch the counterstrike.  While the Japanese would have lost Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu, they would have taken ALL three American CVs.This would have left the Japanese with the 3 CV of the KB, Junyo/Hiyo, and several CVLs versus...Wasp...for the foreseeable future.  THAT would have been pretty...interesting...

You are making an invalid assumption. If the US had had 4 CV's at Midway, what makes you think the Lexington's Air Group wouldn't have been involved in the disasterous dive bomber attack as well? Only took 3 SBD's to put the Kaga down..., how can you say an additional 15-30 Dive Bombers wouldn't have trashed the other 3 CV's as well? Speculation is all well and good..., but you need to make it clear you are talking about "wishful thinking" and not fact. You could as easily say if ALL the US strikes had arrived simultaneously then all six Jap CV's would have been "toast". IF may be the biggest word in the English Language...

[Feinder]

I actually consider "the turning point" to be where CPO Shun decked...
 
Oh wait.
 
Nevermind.  [;)]
 
-F-

[SouthernAP]

In the August 2007 edition of Naval History there was a critical review of the Guadacanal operations when compared to Midway done by Norman Polmar and a few others in the naval history field. He laid the case that it wasn't Midway that broke the might of the IJN but rather the bloody battle to control Guadacanal that broke the back of the IJN. He explains that if Guadacanal didn't happen, then more then likely the Japanese would of made up for the losses of the 5 carriers lost in 1942 with on going building and possible conversion projects. However, the authors state that attrittion warfare that occured in the skies, at sea, and on land was the type of fight that the Japanese just wasn't ready for. They make the case that similar to the Battle for the Atlantic. Crews of Allied Destroyers, Cruisers, and Carriers were being picked up and walking on thier replacements almost with in the week. The same could be said for the US Naval Aviation, USMC Avation, and the USAAF against the IJNAF and IJAAF. Whole squadrons were thrown into the fight for Guadacanal. Then when they were wittled down, the replacement aircraft were turned into the rotable pool at Henderson and the men pulled out to restock and train in the newest or latest version. Once it was close to 85-90% good it was thrown back into the mix. The Japanese just couldn't compete. They could have if the meat grinder didn't last as long as it did. If it was a 2 month battle then the Japanese would of been able to hold the US Navy off and possible pushed for the peace that they wanted. Rather the Allies were constantly pushing against the Japanese and basically wearing them out.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
You are making an invalid assumption. If the US had had 4 CV's at Midway, what makes you think the Lexington's Air Group wouldn't have been involved in the disasterous dive bomber attack as well? Only took 3 SBD's to put the Kaga down..., how can you say an additional 15-30 Dive Bombers wouldn't have trashed the other 3 CV's as well? Speculation is all well and good..., but you need to make it clear you are talking about "wishful thinking" and not fact. You could as easily say if ALL the US strikes had arrived simultaneously then all six Jap CV's would have been "toast". IF may be the biggest word in the English Language...

This is a good point, and it makes me wonder what would have happened if the the additional fighter cover from the other two IJN carriers had been available? Alas, only speculation is available.

[John 3rd]

Mike,

I agree with your summary and that is what I get for rushing the posting instead of detailing it.

IF---you make a great comment with it and the English language---is the operational word. 

I had written a long set of detailed IFs regarding events of that morning and then started to get a headache and gave up.  It still seems fascinating to ask what would have happened if the two forces wiped each other out?  THe Japanese would still have had about a half dozen CV/CVLs where the Americans would have only had Wasp.  There would have been Naval parody through early-1943.  No Guadalcanal to bleed the Japanese Naval Air Corps dry.  Would have made for an interesting American counter-offensive!

[John 3rd]

THAT was one of the points I was going to make but the head started hurting!

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Mike,

I agree with your summary and that is what I get for rushing the posting instead of detailing it.

IF---you make a great comment with it and the English language---is the operational word. 

I had written a long set of detailed IFs regarding events of that morning and then started to get a headache and gave up.  It still seems fascinating to ask what would have happened if the two forces wiped each other out?  The Japanese would still have had about a half dozen CV/CVLs where the Americans would have only had Wasp.  There would have been Naval parody through early-1943.  No Guadalcanal to bleed the Japanese Naval Air Corps dry. Would have made for an interesting American counter-offensive!


Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots. Also the Wasp would be reinforced by the Saratoga before the Fall..., and the remaining Japanese CVL's/CVE's were relatively slow and inefficient vessels. Plus you have to figure that under the pressure of losing the other 4 CV's, Henry Kaiser would have gone into CVE production mode earlier. And the US Army Air Corps would undoubtedly sent a higher proportion of it's strength to the Pacific as well. I agree it would have certainly been a different situation..., but I don't think it would have been as "happy a time" for the Japanese as you suppose.

[John 3rd]

You are ruining all my fun thinking and hypotheticals!  [:D]

Your are clouding my world with FACTS and that makes my head hurt all the more...

To tell the truth, I hadn't thought about old Saratoga since she seemed to be a torpedo magnet for the first 18 months of the war.  Wonder how the crew felt missing all those actions?  I know that the Sara's pilots did quite well when they were bumped over to Guadalcanal.

New Thought:
With the groundbreaking work done in Shattered Sword, do you think there will be re-written naval histories coming out taking the Japanese aerial doctrine and CV practices into account and seeing the battles from a slightly different perspective?  I thought that was Shattered Swords most interesting area of contribution.  Have to admit that the detailed description of the attempts to save the CVs was excellent as well.

[wild_Willie2]

oh boy, what did you guys just made me do........
 
You just made me order Shattered Sword myself without even thinking about the 50$ it set me back....

[Reg]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I actually consider "the turning point" to be where CPO Shun decked...

Oh wait.

Nevermind. [;)]

-F-

[:D] [:D] [:D] [:D] [:D]

[fcam1387]

Something similar is happening in my pbem game as the Japs, albeit a little earlier. I didn't put much effort into the Solomons (a grave mistake in hindsight) and my opponent decided to make his stand there. While my forces are superior, the sheer weight of Allied numbers has had a borderline disastrous effect on my air and sea power. I did not intend on this becoming a decisive theatre of operation, but it did nonetheless. I am now paying dearly for it. Unless I get a major break pretty soon it's going to be all over for me relatively quickly.

[Fishbed]

Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots.

Actually Shattered Sword shows rather well than aircrew losses at Midway were rather small when compared to the tonnage they lost [:o]

I concour with SouthernAP on the attrition thing: Guadalcanal was the long battle which bled dead the IJN pilot pools, and new AAA aboard US ships had a great deal of responsability in this [:o]
Just checking Okumiya's testimony will show just how much they were suffering from these operations...

[decaro]

I think the only solutions to these "what if" posts are the hypothetical "what if Midway didn't happen" scenarios in UV.

That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

And yes, I got that from Shattered Sword; some local libraries order books for their patrons, and that can save you the $35 or so price tag.

[decaro]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

... This is a good point, and it makes me wonder what would have happened if the the additional fighter cover from the other two IJN carriers had been available? Alas, only speculation is available.

While the strikes were rearming below deck, the only IJN planes available/being lauched at this time were CAP; however, many of them got pulled into what Sword called "Thach's Flying Circus." His innovative weave was puzzling -- if not lethal -- to the IJN CAP, and it quickly got a disproportionate amount of its attention.

Further, many Zeros had radios that were unreliable, and coordinating CAP was haphazzard at best fo the IJN flight officer who had only one freak for all planes, and way too much to do on deck coordinating take-offs and landings.

[Fishbed]

That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

While Shattered Sword underlines this fact, it also underlines the complete lack of flexibility of the IJN command mind, together with its unbelievable self-confidence - had they have any doubt about the success of both MI and AL, they may have think about re-using Zuikaku with pieces of Shokaku airgroup. As you say, the US did that, using Saratoga aircrews to fill the Yorktown complement. To mix the flyboys wasn't common usage, but still they did it, because they thought they desperately needed it. But well IJN would only face "despair" after Midway. Sure they had suddenly no choice but to re-assign the hundreds carrier-less pilots they got from Midway to the few surviving airwings  [8|] [:o]