UnRep Operations

[FransKoenz]

To calculate a [rough] unrep you need to know factors:

By UnRep operations at sea you got 2 possible transporting options:
1: by cables between the ships
2: helicopter shuttles

What I know about transportation by cable is that the sea must be relative calm; the ships rolling during this operation due to the displacement and speed of the ships so close to each other [about 10-20 meters].

The transport between the ships by cable line is relative slow. Electro engines or people running the cables. So it takes at least minutes to bridge the distance between the ships, but you must also calculate time to click on/off the payload from the cable line and make room for the next load. There is of course a maximum weight that can be handled per single shuttle. And do not forget the safety protocols…… You cannot say “Oeps” when a container splashed into the water.

[center]
US Supprt vessel alongside an aircraft carrier
Photo: US Navy[/center]

The navy uses helicopters to transfer ammunition from the support vessels to the receiving ships.

Transferring these crates and containers by helicopters goes much faster, but, just as transferring by cable, there are limitations as well:

A helicopter can carry limited weight
They transfer 1 item at the time, I have a collection of photographs showing UnRep operations; on all pics you see the helicopter carrying 1 item.
The smaller the receiving ship, the longer it takes, due to limited space [helicopter deck].
The metrological circumstances: UnRep a vessel in stormy weather takes much more time than when it is a calm day.

[center]
US Helicopter lifting ammunition container
Photo: US Navy[/center]




This is my 1 cent contribution for now. I personally doubt that the transferring time per item is 15 seconds.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: Taitennek
This is my 1 cent contribution for now. I personally doubt that the transferring time per item is 15 seconds.

Fair enough, I'll be waiting anxiously for your model to appear for public discussion. As a fully working version of Unrep operations is yet to be publically released, it's a 3.9 fix in fact. I would have thought the player's attention was more focused on the fact that at last this aspect of naval operations can now be simulated in Harpoon3 ANW 3.9.0.

Instead we have a "random thread" appear that one might almost consider to be trolling for something. If you would like to open a discussion on the subject please feel free.

Cheers

Darren

[Bucks]

I would have hoped players were happy that RAS/Unrep now works. Individual preferences in regard to modelling are freely open to both discussion and editing via the database. There's a lot of things working in 3.9 that were killer bugs and even the implementation of fully working models for DB Editors that wish to include their own logistics systems.

Of course the level of detail the average player wants and the effect of said on the game's playability need to be balanced. If for example you wish to transfer say 200 rounds of (5in) 127mm ammunition at a setting of 15 seconds, this will take 50 mins, of course at the same time adding a full reload of Mk 15 Phalanx ammo (7 rounds) will only add an additional 1.75 mins. So in this case the transfer at the "despised" 15 secs may actually be in excess to the time taken in reality.

I would assume the ammo is palletised and may come in say pallets of 50 rounds. Is 50 minutes too long to transfer 200 rounds, of course there's a time component involved in the ships assuming the their transfer stations, so you are looking at an hour alongside each other to perform the example transfer.

When you view the issue in relation to individual weapons such as say RGM-84 Harpoons, of course transferring 4 missiles within a minute is ridiculous. Then again, reloading a Mk141 mount with Harpoons at sea can probably be described in the same way. The basic 15 sec rule fits with the transfer of multiple weapons at a standard rate. It is not aimed or intended in the case of the HUD series databases to allow for mount reloading at sea and underway. It was more aimed at the replenishment of aviation stores, in multiple quantities generating "realistic" overall time periods for these evolutions. I did not intend players to Exploit this feature and for people to use some basic common sense in regard to what can actually be loaded at sea while underway and in close proximity to the ongoing action. As always, each individual database editor is free to implement whatever model he sees fit to. Just because I use a particular system doesn't make it the LAW, nor should anyone feel compelled to copy my values or models.

Cheers

Darren Buckley

Apologies to those that see this cross posted elsewhere, for some reason people still feel the need to start something somewhere and drag it here kicking and screaming. [;)]

[FransKoenz]

I am very happy that ANW 3.9 includes UnRep operations. This makes it finally possible to implement UnRep Operations into scenarios.
The topic I wrote is to open a discussion about this subject. After all, replenishment operations on sea are imho small logistical nightmares, especially on smaller ships.

I will search for articles about UnRep and put them on this forum, but it is not my intention to create a model or timetables, or to critisize the values and models used in ANW.
I am very interested in the aspects of replenisment on sea and hope that other players will share their knowledge with the community as well.
After all, we are not talking about loading a truck [:D]

[center]
USS Kitty Hawk and USNS Yukon [Photo: US Navy[/center]

Cheers,
Frans.

[SonarMB]

Reality check time.

When looking at unrep you need to think about a number of factors.

1. are you tranfering personal

2. " refueling

3. " transfing food

4. " stores

5 ' fixed ammo

6. " seperated

each type has its own in built problems.

example: people and small stores can be moved by boat, jackstay or Helo

Fuel has to be moved by RAS "L"

Ammo by Heavy Jackstay or Helo

Jacstay operations for heavy store food, and ammo can take up to 5 hours where a boat transfer for personal takes 10 mins in calm seas. RAS"L" on average took about 3 hours depending on the size of the supplying ship. That is USN ships would take about half the time as RAN/RN/RNZN ships wpould ( bigger pumps and more willing to spill)

Ammo by heavy jackstay is a pain for the recieving ship because it all has to be done mandraulically and it takes at least 5 hours to do 200 rounds and no the are not palleties into 50 rounds. on average a 5' shell weighs 55 lbs with the cartridge weighing about the same that would make aboot 2.5tons per pallet which would be very difficult to move ( helo could) I rember we did one once for 10 rounds and 2 mk 46 torps and with ALL personal not on watch that took 2 hours not including rigging time.

So to answer one of Darrens questions 50 mins is too little realistically. Anyway Im being called for dinner so I will continue later.

[FreekS]

I struggle to see how to implement itin scenario's; I already limit ammo on ships and bases to what I think they might need/have. I guess with UNREP I can give immense amounts of ammo which won't be used in relatively short scens. I guess I could have ammo on the supply ship and force players to spend time/effort to cross-deck but as th AI will not do that the AI would be crippled. As the fuel; in my longest scens (Atlantic) frigates can runs out of fuels but most ships appear to have enough. If thats not realistic the DBs would need to be changed to force the player to take fuel from tanker-ships, but again then the AI would be crippled because I think it does not perform such operations.
 
So yes definitely an improvement in realism but not one I immediately have great scenario-idea's for. Maybe someone else?
 
Freek

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: FreekS

I struggle to see how to implement itin scenario's; I already limit ammo on ships and bases to what I think they might need/have. I guess with UNREP I can give immense amounts of ammo which won't be used in relatively short scens. I guess I could have ammo on the supply ship and force players to spend time/effort to cross-deck but as th AI will not do that the AI would be crippled. As the fuel; in my longest scens (Atlantic) frigates can runs out of fuels but most ships appear to have enough. If thats not realistic the DBs would need to be changed to force the player to take fuel from tanker-ships, but again then the AI would be crippled because I think it does not perform such operations.

So yes definitely an improvement in realism but not one I immediately have great scenario-idea's for. Maybe someone else?

Freek

Freek,

I have a request in with the Developers that, C3 will need to discuss for possible inclusion in H3ANW 3.10. This is related to giving scenario designers the ability to set a starting fuel load at a value that's not always 100%. At present we can alter individual ship's ammo loads, but vessels always start at 100% fuel. The requested change would allow scen designers to mod their platforms to some extent during the scenario design process.

This would allow designers to enforce logistical constraints on a player's actions. When used with time critical victory condition settings, I can imagine this would start to open scenario possibilities. If a player starts with say a group of 6 surface vessels and say 3 of these will require refuelling from a non-group tanker vessel, a player is going to have to make decisions about what he refuels and when. Where his units are in relation to his support vessels, their speed and what he has on the "threat board". He may be forced to expose his Tanker to attack in an effort to meet the victory conditions and a designer could make the Tanker part of the victory conditions with a "protect unit" entry. Also as you have stated Freek, you already limit ammo. If we "squeeze" the player a little more we can have some fun . Take a scenario with a carrier group that's short of weapons. You present the player with a "ordnance shortage", and introduce the need to replenish his magazines or not. I mean how are your pilots going to feel about being asked to drop dumb bombs instead of modern guided weapons? What's the effect of carrying out the same attacks with different weapons. As always imagination is really the only limiting factor.

Also I don't see that having the AO - Artificial Opponent, notice I didn't mention there was any intelligence [;)] unable to use these evolutions as an issue. I'm assuming most players have a larger capacity to deal with tactical problems and I see a designer's job as presenting the player with challenges, not the AO. Also we now have a sim that can be played human vs human, and as such if we wanted to have both sides dealing with these issues, we as designers can always create a specifically designed multi-player scenario to illustrate these options. I have done considerable work on chaff barrier simulation and although the AO can't utilise these types of systems, there's no reason why I shouldn't include them for MP use.

[FreekS]

Bucks,

You are right that being able to limit weapon loadout on ships (already possible) as well as limiting fuel loadout and unrep (for fuel and weapons) are welcome additions.

In player to player (MP) games there is no problem with designing scens that make use of this possibility.

However I think that the AO is hindered much more by limited fuel, weapons than the player. The player can be more carefull about expenditure where as you say the AO is no AI.

When I design scens with two playable sides I do my best to make them solitaire and MP-able from the same game. I think solitaire is still the most common gaming.

I have at times limited fuel load on a platform by asking the DB designer to include a special platform for me, so I know that will be a usefull feature that you can make the player do interesting things with. However it is hard on the AO and thus can make the game easier for the player too!

I like the limited weapons in ANW (which did not work 100% in 3.6); but it does mean I need to think hard if the AO has enough weapons as it enerally expends more than a good player and I don;t want it to run out and fly planes with 'minimal' loadout at the end of the game. So far I've succeeded.

Freek

[SonarMB]

Another thing you may not know, but Aircraft carriers can refuel smaller ships. I have been on Torrens and we RAS"L"ed off USS Independence. So you may not need to put a Fleet Oiler into a TG. Just a thought

[Sirius..]

Hi being in the Royal Navy and a Seaman too heres a good link for you guys on RAS (Replenisment At Sea)RAS

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: SonarMB

Another thing you may not know, but Aircraft carriers can refuel smaller ships. I have been on Torrens and we RAS"L"ed off USS Independence. So you may not need to put a Fleet Oiler into a TG. Just a thought

Thanks "Sandgroper", [:)]

I've already added this capability to most of the USN Carriers in the HUD3 so you'll be able to recreate exactly what you did. It's just another example of what can be done with H3 ANW 3.9.0. and the simulation's ability to undertake the whole gamut of naval operations.

This also presents another possibility for scenario creation. When we factor in the times required to refuel either the Carrier, its escorts or both. It would be possible to offer the player tactical options that are either restricted by a time limit or influenced by the need to make logistical transfers to limit his options. I suppose it could be best described as dealing the player several hands and seeing who's capable of gambling correctly. [;)]

Cheers

Darren

[SonarMB]

Another thought, we would, dependent on the tactical enviroment refuel right up to Red which is Attack inniment or under way. Mostly in AAW or ASuW if there was enough time to ensure a safe and clean break. You wouldnt do it for ASW because that can go from green to red with one torpedo.

[wx732]

I thought I had posted something here...
 
Anyway, rate of transfer for RAS (L) is around 450 cu M/H (450 Ton/Hr).  Canadian FF's carry ~400 CUM (how we write it) of fuel (F76).
 
Been busy doing, rather than talking about, sorry.
 
MS James Powell
HMCS Protecteur
Mid Pac Tanker 2008