Controlling TFs with React/Retirement - A Feature Discussion

[dgaad]

We absolutely must have a TF behavior setting to allow Retirement ONLY from Land Based Air.

There are too many cases of people watching carriers "react to enemy" in ways that a real commander would not do, and losing the task force carriers as a result.

The current options in the Patrol/Do Not Retire, Retirement Allowed and React to Enemy, Do Not React to Enemy are insufficient to enable a player to do what was done historically : cruise around outside enemy LBA range and reacting to any spots but WITHOUT stupidly endangering his carriers to LBA.

I think the best Solution would be to have 4 settings in Reaction status :


Unrestricted React
React to Enemy outside of enemy LBA range
React to Enemy Within range of Friendly LBA only
Do not React to enemy.

[osros]

Interesting, nice ideas there. But cant have the computer do everything. Taking care of the CV's like it was your own mom adds flavor to the game.

Very Satisfying when it works out you way.

Pisses you off when things go to hell.

Gets the blood movin

[U2]

Originally posted by osros
Interesting, nice ideas there. But cant have the computer do everything. Taking care of the CV's like it was your own mom adds flavor to the game.

Very Satisfying when it works out you way.

Pisses you off when things go to hell.

Gets the blood movin

I really like the idea by DGAAD but OSROS speaks the truth. I LOVE my carriers if one can say that and must treat them that way. It really does ad flavor to the game as you said and it is possible to avoid land based air anyway. Its not like my TF will suddenly move 10 hexes towards Raboul because a reaction move occured. Choose your destinations carefully and count on a few hexes for an eventual reaction.

Dan

[osros]

I keep my Carriers just out of Land Base Air range and move around a bit, sometimes stay in one hex for a couple of days. If an enemy CV TF moves into my range, In most cases I got the drop on them and get first strike.

Im very cautious with my Carriers the IJN have 4 or 5 to my 2. In the game Im playing. No sense charging them in.

[dgaad]

Dont get me wrong guys. I'm not presenting this idea because I've lost a carrier group to LBA. I haven't. I'm very careful also. But I think counting hexes from nearby enemy bases and attempting guess at the radius circle is rather stupid.

[mogami]

Well i see a major problem, Allied LBA from Cooktown with B-17's reaches up past Rabaul. IJN TF would always be withdrawing.
You have to set them to human control, do not react, do not retire and drive them yourself. Of course you also then don't have your TF commander reacting, however if the TF is at a friendly base with aircover of it's own you can use the react command. Just don't go sailing into enemy waters with react on.
(I have yet to have a carrier attacked by LBA I did not expect to attack it) (IN over a dozen carrier battles with both sides I have only had 2 carriers damaged)

[osros]

Mogami,

Your exploits dont count, Your a wargamming freak!

Us normal lesser commanders have to work for our victories!

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Mogami
Well i see a major problem, Allied LBA from Cooktown with B-17's reaches up past Rabaul. IJN TF would always be withdrawing.
You have to set them to human control, do not react, do not retire and drive them yourself. Of course you also then don't have your TF commander reacting, however if the TF is at a friendly base with aircover of it's own you can use the react command. Just don't go sailing into enemy waters with react on.
(I have yet to have a carrier attacked by LBA I did not expect to attack it) (IN over a dozen carrier battles with both sides I have only had 2 carriers damaged)

Mogami, I'm not asking for anything to be taken away from the game as it stands now. I'm asking for additional behavior OPTIONS. An option is optional. How is that a problem?

[mogami]

Hi, I am only pointing out if you tell a TF to withdraw from LBA it will return to Truk since US LBA reaches up to Rabaul. No matter where you are south of Rabaul you are in US LBA range (it only needs allies to set groups to Naval attack. With this option IJN TF's would always be forced to retire. You would need a setting for range (I do this by driving the TF myself and staying a certain distance away.)

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, I am only pointing out if you tell a TF to withdraw from LBA it will return to Truk since US LBA reaches up to Rabaul. No matter where you are south of Rabaul you are in US LBA range (it only needs allies to set groups to Naval attack. With this option IJN TF's would always be forced to retire. You would need a setting for range (I do this by driving the TF myself and staying a certain distance away.)

Obviously, if you order your TF to do something you don't want it to do, thats a problem. With the additional options I'm suggesting here, you could set your TFs to Patrol/Do Not Retire (exactly as you are doing now, no changes) and rely on your carrier and LBA to protect the TF. Nothing I've suggested here will force you to do things you don't want to do.

Without these options, however, I have to manually count the distance from enemy bases and see if where I want to go is within theoretical range. I also have to use the aircraft database and manually calculate the range in hexes for threat aircraft. I don't want to spend my time in game doing that if I don't have to. An option to automatically retire if within range of LBA or to react only outside of range of enemy LBA would save me this time.

[mogami]

Greetings, I am not trying to debate your point. I understand it.
What I am saying is not a retire from LBA (that would cause all TF's every where with this option on to retire (since the Japanese have LBA that reaches Cooktown and the Allies have LBA that reaches past Rabaul, as soon as you toggled it the TF would retire. What you really want is a toggle for range from an enemy base. (Example I don't mind if B-17s fly 20 hexes to bomb me but I don't want to get 4 hexes from allied base and trigger groups that will have shortrange escorts and torpedo planes so I set my TF to remain 5- 6 hexes from enemy bases)
A generic LBA retire trigger will not work since the LBA of both sides reaches so far. (the normal retire/do not react function keeps TF's away from enemy CV groups.)

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Mogami
Greetings, I am not trying to debate your point. I understand it.
What I am saying is not a retire from LBA (that would cause all TF's every where with this option on to retire (since the Japanese have LBA that reaches Cooktown and the Allies have LBA that reaches past Rabaul, as soon as you toggled it the TF would retire. What you really want is a toggle for range from an enemy base. (Example I don't mind if B-17s fly 20 hexes to bomb me but I don't want to get 4 hexes from allied base and trigger groups that will have shortrange escorts and torpedo planes so I set my TF to remain 5- 6 hexes from enemy bases)
A generic LBA retire trigger will not work since the LBA of both sides reaches so far. (the normal retire/do not react function keeps TF's away from enemy CV groups.)

I think this is a good idea . . . a user-enterable number for range to avoid from enemy airbases.

[mogami]

Hi, Currently I drive my TF's I do lose the react to enemy funtion. I get around this draw back by using lots of Naval search and predicting enemy movement. As allies I keep watch on enemy CV groups and 'creep up' when I get to where my max movement will place me within my 4hex torpedo plane range I go full steam (also like to stay back intill the weather will help approach. As Japan I do the reverse. I keep 7-8 hexes from USN CV groups (to remove torpedo planes and 1000lb bombs. ) When I decide to go into LBA to attack a port I use the weather and a slower approach to stay out of range till fast run in. and then run in to 8 hexes. I would most likely do this this even if their was a toggle since I don't like my forces doing things I did not tell them to do. I reserve the react mission for forces I want to stay away from a place unless enemy TF's show up (I keep reaction TF at Shortland to watch Lunga) These groups are already in areas I am not concerned with non CV air attack (I never use reaction if enemy CV forces are around (It could be an ambush) I don't give the TF commander permission to gamble with my money.)

[Ron Saueracker]

During the 1942 period, USN carrier air only risked torpedo laden LBA with surprise in hand and when conducting offensive actions, ie. the early 42 raids. After that, no way. USN carriers should not go rampaging into the stuff that sank Prince of Wales and Repulse with impunity. It was SOP. That's why Fletcher left the Guadalcanal landings early...to avoid exposing his CVs for too long with diminishing CAP resources.

Anyway, I was under the impression that "React to Enemy" carriers meant that carriers would close into strike range to extend the relative range of their aircraft **during** an engagement to somewhat nullify the longer range of IJN aircraft, not, I repeat, not to force an engagement which defies the concept of calculated risk. The fact that all 1942 engagements had USN CVs out of IJN LBA range should speak volumes, despite the fact that USN was on the defensive. When IJN was on defensive later in war, the situation was reversed. Maybe only offensive operations should allow the forces involved to risk LBA, as their numbers or strategic surprise deemed it necessary and a reasonable risk.

[mogami]

Hi, Ron sorry I was assuming everyone understood in all cases I was trying for suprise. I would not choose to just slug it out with the enemy (it sometimes happens dispite what I try) If my TF is spotted I always reverse course to extend range. My USN CV never go north of Woodlark Island. (I have caught several US TF north of there as Japan. I have refused more carrier actions then I have fought. But also I have yet (knock on wood) to lose a carrier while I have sank 6 CV 1 CVL 1 CVE and damaged 6 CV

The main point is you are not required to let your carrier commanders run loose. Do not go into an area without recon forces (all my CV TF have at least one other TF assigned to proceed it with search planes.)

[dgaad]

Originally posted by Ron Saueracker
During the 1942 period, USN carrier air only risked torpedo laden LBA with surprise in hand and when conducting offensive actions, ie. the early 42 raids. After that, no way. USN carriers should not go rampaging into the stuff that sank Prince of Wales and Repulse with impunity. It was SOP. That's why Fletcher left the Guadalcanal landings early...to avoid exposing his CVs for too long with diminishing CAP resources.

Anyway, I was under the impression that "React to Enemy" carriers meant that carriers would close into strike range to extend the relative range of their aircraft **during** an engagement to somewhat nullify the longer range of IJN aircraft, not, I repeat, not to force an engagement which defies the concept of calculated risk. The fact that all 1942 engagements had USN CVs out of IJN LBA range should speak volumes, despite the fact that USN was on the defensive. When IJN was on defensive later in war, the situation was reversed. Maybe only offensive operations should allow the forces involved to risk LBA, as their numbers or strategic surprise deemed it necessary and a reasonable risk.

I'm quoting Ron, but talking to Mogami. Mogami : read this again. You talk about what you do with the game. You do what most good tacticians would do : not risk carriers against LBA except in overwhelming force. But, the game does not make this easy. You have to micromanage placement, manually count range from bases, etc. We are all in agreement what the right tactics are, indeed what the STANDARD tactics were for the real commanders.

We need Matrix to make it alot easier to implement standard tactics, with some behavior controls that automate the process to some extent, like a user-enterable number for not going near enemy airbases. Right now, the react and retirement modes make it really easy to do something that is actually completely unrealistic.

[Andrew Offen]

Can someone help clarify exactly what the current reaction rules mean in terms of actual distance covered? How far will a CV TF actually move in order to get into strike range of an enemy CV. In my experience it seemed a huge distance and kind of implied the distance was a full 12 hour impulse at max speed. That could be as far as 8 hexes or so. Is this wrong?

[mogami]

Greetings, The AI would have to be Deep Blue to know what you wanted to do. When you brief that carrier commander he will want to know exactly where 7 hexes off Noumea you want him Not "Admiral go bomb Noumea but stay 7 hexes away"
Even with a toggle for that range there are too many hexes for the AI. The reason I take control (operational not tactical) is to insure coordination between the TF's (the CV's also have oilers and recon and surface TF's operating and just saying 'follow' doesn't place them exactly where they need to go. UV is an operational level game. We the players only decide who takes what where for what mission. There is no way to input this to the AI except actually taking 15 minutes per turn to go around and make sure every one is on the same page.(Radio traffic) (during intense periods it sometimes even takes 20 minutes to enter all the orders for a single turn, and I do every air group and every Tf every turn.) I am sure I still do not understand what it si exactly you want. You want to leave operational decisions to the AI? (where a TF ends it's movement phase is a primary operational concern, it has to be
Coordinated with every other friendly force involved (a task force could meet the LBA requirement but because it chose hex a 8 hexes out rather then hex B 8 hexes out it is now also out of aircover of friendly bases. We don't have tactical control of our forces. The leaders in charge of the units do. I don't want the AI also excising my operational control, if you do I understand but I would point out how difficult it would be to create an AI that understood your plan. Only the human brain with the larger picture knows exactly what is going on and where units need to be.
I guess the real difference of views expressed in this thread is not staying out of dangerous hexes. But what micro managing on an operational scale is. It is not micro managing for a Theater Commander (the player) to tell a TF where exactly to go (in fact that is exactly the Higher commanders job. He decides what goes where. The TF commander handles the actual fighting. but not what he fights with or who he fights against) Micro managing would be going into the airgroup and saying Ens Smith flies today and Ens Williams takes the day off. Setting airgroup operational limits for a task (30percent cap) Thats my job. Telling a TF how far to go (is also saying how fast-or how much fuel to burn) These are operational since I am the one that has to get the replenishment TF to the unrep site.
I do not concur with the standard tactic notion. Tactics are the means by which operations meet strategic goals. There is no standard tactic. (are there standard battles where standard tactics are applied?)
There is a option for a TF to be computer controlled (I wouldn't touch it for routine supply convoys)

[dgaad]

Mogami :

Your knowledge of the ability of programmers is lacking, and you are making incorrect assumptions.

There is no question that the routines to enable the prevention of entering within a defined range of any enemy airbase can be programmed. The code is mostly already there, since part of the current "retirement allowed" code checks to see whether it is currently within range of LBA.

The options we are requesting would make that check from the standpoint of which hex the reacting TF would go to. AI checks for reaction, determines end point of reaction move, checks for LBA or user-entered range from any LBA threat. If the end point for reaction move is within enemy LBA range, go through the routine again but subtract 1 from the allowable distance of the react move. Check end point again, if still within LBA, subtract 1 again and etc. Its not hard at all, and it aint "Deep Blue".

I don't understand, and I apologize if I am misunderstanding, why you are arguing against this.

I frequently encounter people who think that additional options are a bad idea, and I've never pretended to understand that kind of logic.

About "Standard Tactics" : Ron was talking about the SOP for US Carrier Group commanders during the war. Name a single instance during the Pacific War where a US carrier commander entered enemy LBA range without one of the following two assets : overwhelming force, or surprise (the 1942 Marshall raids). I have no doubt that this SOP was so SOP that it was documented in Naval Staff manuals.

What you choose to make your own personal standard tactics is your business, but don't try to debate what the US Navy's SOP was. There isn't a dispute about that.

[osros]

Originally posted by dgaad
Mogami :

Your knowledge of the ability of programmers is lacking, and you are making incorrect assumptions.

Thems fighting words! I see a dgaad vs Mogami PBEM game..

Get in there & fight!