Malaya Map

[marcuswatney]

This is a magnificent effort all round.  The vast majority of my comments that follow are just nit-picking of no significance to the play of the game, with one exception and that is Burma.  So I'll hold back the rest to another post and just focus on that sad country.All comments refer to Post 51.
 
Oil:  We've agreed the oil is at Yenangyaung.  On my maps, Yenangyaung is one third of the way from Mandalay to Rangoon (so, one third of seven hexes).  Where it is placed at the moment is the point that Slim debouched onto the plain in Extended Capital, surprising the Japanese by capturing Meiktila rather than Mandalay (and where the INA had their moment of 'glory', surrendering promptly without a fight).
 
I recommend that the oil be positioned in the hex with the letters 'awaddy', that the rail-line loops around to it from the hex with the characters 'W)', that the river go around the other side of the hex so that the oil is on the east bank, and that that oil hex be designated jungle.  The hex west of Mandalay becomes clear.
 
Imphal-Kohima: I haven't played WiF for some years, so all my next comments come with the caveat that of course we must be mindful of play-balance when it comes to a Japanese invasion of India.  The problem is that the topography at the moment doesn't present players with the problems faced historically.
 
There were only two routes into India: along the coast or via Imphal-Kohima (for the Allies, the third, the Ledo Road, wasn't finished in time to greatly influence the war).  Imphal is a plain where you don't expect a plain to be.  It was reached only by a single all-weather road from the rail line via Kohima.  The all-weather road continued south a bit, then petered out, becoming merely a 'fair-weather road' (= muddy track).
 
The Japanese 'invasion' of India was actually only a spoiling attack at corps strength ('Army' in Japanese inflated nomenclature) to mess up British preparations for their own attack on Burma.  While the main force attacked Imphal from the southeast and east, one Japanese division struggled through the jungle to cut Imphal off from its railhead by seizing Kohima.
 
Slim's brilliance was not to run away as the Japanese expected but to let himself be surrounded and besieged at Imphal, supplying the entire Corps by air!  Thus the Imphal hex needs to be a clear hex capable of basing aircraft (there were at least four airfields dotted around the plain).  The Japanese ran out of supplies faster than the besieged British and so were defeated.
 
So the impassable hexsides need to be repositioned to create a corridor from the word Chindwin, to one hex west, then one hex northwest (to Imphal), then one hex northeast (to Kohima) and finally one hex northwest to the rail-line.  Thus Imphal should be made attractive to both players as a plain, counterbalanced by the circuitous route ground troops have to take if they are to take advantage of it as an airbase.
 
Chittagong:  At the coast, the Indian-Burmese border curves southeast, so I recommend that the hex with the letters 'Arak' be Indian.  This is where Cox's Bazar (sic) was, the place British troops assembled for the thrust into Arakan.  The next hex along the coast (Akyab) is especially interesting.  It was full of swamps and small islands, where the British and Japanese fought each other in small boats at very close range, very much like the Mekong Delta in the Vietnam War.  So I recommend it be reclassed as swamp.
 
Indian oil: Just off the map, north of Naga Hills, near Ledo, was an oilfield, one of the reasons to start the Ledo road there (they laid a pipeline alongside the road).

[marcuswatney]

Post 53:
 
Singora rather than Sawng Kla.
 
Move one Malayan resource (rubber) northeast one hex.
 
Anambas Islands belong to Mal rather than Mas.
 
'Axis' sea-boxes???  Japan was not part of the Axis, but of the Tripartite Alliance.  (The name Axis comes from the metaphor of the world rotating around the Rome-Berlin axis).  Suggest the boxes be just called Jap or Jpn.
 
Post 54:
 
Brunei really only deserves one hex.  The port is on the southwest coast of the bay, so perhaps move the bay down the coast.  The North Borneo - Brunei border was half way along the bay.
 
Banggi = Banguey
 
Post 56
 
Very impressed you are aware that the railway went no further than Nanning!
 
However, here is a piece of esoteria for you to work in.  The reason the Japanese occupied north French-IndoChina was to cut off supplies to the KMT coming in via Haiphong.  Once this line of supply was denied them, the Chinese actually disassembled the rail-line from the border to Kunming because they needed the iron!  In game terms, this can be quite important, because it looks like the best way to cut the Burma Road is a Japanese offensive from northwest French-IndoChina to Kunming along the rail-line.  In reality, this was not a meaninful option.
 
Fic = FIC (as with NEI)

[brian brian]

I've been reading some Samuel Eliot Morrison lately, first the condensed volume and now the first Pacific volume. He reports that during the Japanese advance south, the Allies eventually began using a small port on the south side of Java, Tjilatjap as a base. The Langley was bound there with a load of P-40s when it was sunk, and one cargo freighter with more P-40s had already reached it. It also had a small dry-dock that was used in an attempt to repair some of the smaller ships in the former US Asiatic Squadron.

The 'Malay Barrier' is hard enough for the Japanese to defend already, and the change of scale makes this moreso as a few more of the hexes bordering the South China Sea are junlge hexes that can base planes automatically, so playing Japan I would hate to see this port on the map. But realistically it would seem to be a WiF-style minor port.

I only bring this up to get it on here electronically before I forget about it, so there is a record for future work on the map.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Oil:  We've agreed the oil is at Yenangyaung.  On my maps, Yenangyaung is one third of the way from Mandalay to Rangoon (so, one third of seven hexes).  Where it is placed at the moment is the point that Slim debouched onto the plain in Extended Capital, surprising the Japanese by capturing Meiktila rather than Mandalay (and where the INA had their moment of 'glory', surrendering promptly without a fight).

I recommend that the oil be positioned in the hex with the letters 'awaddy', that the rail-line loops around to it from the hex with the characters 'W)', that the river go around the other side of the hex so that the oil is on the east bank, and that that oil hex be designated jungle.  The hex west of Mandalay becomes clear.

Well, my decision to put Yenangyaung here was driven by 2 motives :
- First, if you look at the map uploaded here, you see that the Burmese oil fields were in Yenangyaung and Chauk areas. Yenangyaung being the southernmost of both. I chose to put that name on the map because it was more "famous" for its oil, but I could also have put Chauk. OK the map is from 1972, but the Chauk entry on Wikipedia says that the oil was discovered in 1902 here.
- The WiF FE maps has the oil north of Mandalay, far away from Rangoon, so I wanted to put the oil as far as possible from Rangoon. Let's say that the Japanese need to go that far north to have enough Burmese oil to warrant 1 oil resource (the oil resource is 9 MP from Rangoon on the WiF FE maps, here it is 7 MP from Rangoon -- 10 MP WiF FE / 12 MP MWiF for non Japanese units).

Also, unfortunately, it is close to impossible now to change the rivers and shores on the maps. It would require too much work, and only if there was really something really wrong somewhere would we dive into that work again.

Railways and terrain in non coastal hexes are possible to change, as are names and their positions, and the position of resources and cities, but not the rivers & shores.

[Froonp]

Chittagong: At the coast, the Indian-Burmese border curves southeast, so I recommend that the hex with the letters 'Arak' be Indian. This is where Cox's Bazar (sic) was, the place British troops assembled for the thrust into Arakan. The next hex along the coast (Akyab) is especially interesting. It was full of swamps and small islands, where the British and Japanese fought each other in small boats at very close range, very much like the Mekong Delta in the Vietnam War. So I recommend it be reclassed as swamp.

About the border, it has a general northeast - southwest direction, all the way down to the ocean, so I think that giving 1 hex to India here is too much. I agree that the border is curing eastward, but not enough for an entire hex.

For Akyab, I also agree that the coastal terrain was swamps & small islands, but most of the hex is mountain, so mountain is the best terrain for the hex IMO. However, I've added the Akyab name, because I like it and it has historical relevance.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

Also, unfortunately, it is close to impossible now to change the rivers and shores on the maps. It would require too much work, and only if there was really something really wrong somewhere would we dive into that work again.
--
Amen.[:)]

Though I would say 'fortunately'.[:D]

[Froonp]

Imphal-Kohima: I haven't played WiF for some years, so all my next comments come with the caveat that of course we must be mindful of play-balance when it comes to a Japanese invasion of India. The problem is that the topography at the moment doesn't present players with the problems faced historically.

There were only two routes into India: along the coast or via Imphal-Kohima (for the Allies, the third, the Ledo Road, wasn't finished in time to greatly influence the war). Imphal is a plain where you don't expect a plain to be. It was reached only by a single all-weather road from the rail line via Kohima. The all-weather road continued south a bit, then petered out, becoming merely a 'fair-weather road' (= muddy track).

The Japanese 'invasion' of India was actually only a spoiling attack at corps strength ('Army' in Japanese inflated nomenclature) to mess up British preparations for their own attack on Burma. While the main force attacked Imphal from the southeast and east, one Japanese division struggled through the jungle to cut Imphal off from its railhead by seizing Kohima.

Slim's brilliance was not to run away as the Japanese expected but to let himself be surrounded and besieged at Imphal, supplying the entire Corps by air! Thus the Imphal hex needs to be a clear hex capable of basing aircraft (there were at least four airfields dotted around the plain). The Japanese ran out of supplies faster than the besieged British and so were defeated.

So the impassable hexsides need to be repositioned to create a corridor from the word Chindwin, to one hex west, then one hex northwest (to Imphal), then one hex northeast (to Kohima) and finally one hex northwest to the rail-line. Thus Imphal should be made attractive to both players as a plain, counterbalanced by the circuitous route ground troops have to take if they are to take advantage of it as an airbase.

About Imphal & Kohima, could you draw a rough draft of how you envision it ? Especially the alpine hexes disposition.

About Imphal being a plain, I don't think that this is a plain that warrants 1 full hex of plain terrain, in the middle of those mountains. 1 hex is about 80 km. I see (on google earth) that it seems quite flat indeed, and I also see airports, but 1 full hex of clear terrain is way to much IMO.

Again, thanks for the comments, you seems very well informed about this place.

[Froonp]

Indian oil: Just off the map, north of Naga Hills, near Ledo, was an oilfield, one of the reasons to start the Ledo road there (they laid a pipeline alongside the road).

Sorry to look like a naysayer, but this one is not possible too. Oil is so critical in the game, that we must keep their number and placement the same as the original game. Maybe that oil field was not large enough at the WiF scale ?

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Singora rather than Sawng Kla.

You're right. I was not able to find that Sawng Kla place when I worked on the maps, so I left them as on ADG's maps.

Move one Malayan resource (rubber) northeast one hex.

I would do it gladly, but it would allow 1 of these resources to be shipped directly from the South China Sea which is a big departure from the original game. Another possible place in Burma, but not in the city or another Sout China Sea coastal hex ?

Anambas Islands belong to Mal rather than Mas.

Well, the IOC code for Malaya is MAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IOC_country_codes). I agree that MAL for Malaya seems better, but we agreed to take the IOC 3 letter codes for the game. But the wikipedia page quoted here also says that Malaya had MAL as a code, and then MAS. MAL is not used by another country. Should we change MAS to MAL for Malaya country code Steve ?

'Axis' sea-boxes???  Japan was not part of the Axis, but of the Tripartite Alliance.  (The name Axis comes from the metaphor of the world rotating around the Rome-Berlin axis).  Suggest the boxes be just called Jap or Jpn.

In WiF FE, the Allied are opposed to the Axis. The Russians for example are part of the Allied Camp. Japan is part of the Axis camp.

Post 54:
 
Brunei really only deserves one hex.  The port is on the southwest coast of the bay, so perhaps move the bay down the coast.  The North Borneo - Brunei border was half way along the bay.

Brunei is small, and could be only 1 hex, but it is hard with this scale to show reality. I thought that it was not too bad that way. Not one of my best places on the map.

Banggi = Banguey

Well, my map show Banggi, and Banguey show no response on Wikipedia. Where did you find Banguey ?

Post 56
 
Very impressed you are aware that the railway went no further than Nanning!

However, here is a piece of esoteria for you to work in.  The reason the Japanese occupied north French-IndoChina was to cut off supplies to the KMT coming in via Haiphong.  Once this line of supply was denied them, the Chinese actually disassembled the rail-line from the border to Kunming because they needed the iron!  In game terms, this can be quite important, because it looks like the best way to cut the Burma Road is a Japanese offensive from northwest French-IndoChina to Kunming along the rail-line.  In reality, this was not a meaninful option.

Thanks for the story, but difficult to translate in game terms. In WiF, railways are permanent and indestructible.

Fic = FIC (as with NEI)

Yes, corrected.

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I've been reading some Samuel Eliot Morrison lately, first the condensed volume and now the first Pacific volume. He reports that during the Japanese advance south, the Allies eventually began using a small port on the south side of Java, Tjilatjap as a base. The Langley was bound there with a load of P-40s when it was sunk, and one cargo freighter with more P-40s had already reached it. It also had a small dry-dock that was used in an attempt to repair some of the smaller ships in the former US Asiatic Squadron.

The 'Malay Barrier' is hard enough for the Japanese to defend already, and the change of scale makes this moreso as a few more of the hexes bordering the South China Sea are junlge hexes that can base planes automatically, so playing Japan I would hate to see this port on the map. But realistically it would seem to be a WiF-style minor port.

I only bring this up to get it on here electronically before I forget about it, so there is a record for future work on the map.

Adding a port, even minor here, would add a change that we do not want to add, as you said.
But I add the name, as it is one of those WWII famous names, as Akyab, and it deserve to be on the map.

As a note, adding a minor port here is trivial for those interested to have it in their games in the future.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Singora rather than Sawng Kla.

You're right. I was not able to find that Sawng Kla place when I worked on the maps, so I left them as on ADG's maps.

Move one Malayan resource (rubber) northeast one hex.

I would do it gladly, but it would allow 1 of these resources to be shipped directly from the South China Sea which is a big departure from the original game. Another possible place in Burma, but not in the city or another Sout China Sea coastal hex ?

Anambas Islands belong to Mal rather than Mas.

Well, the IOC code for Malaya is MAS (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_IOC_country_codes). I agree that MAL for Malaya seems better, but we agreed to take the IOC 3 letter codes for the game. But the wikipedia page quoted here also says that Malaya had MAL as a code, and then MAS. MAL is not used by another country. Should we change MAS to MAL for Malaya country code Steve ?

'Axis' sea-boxes???  Japan was not part of the Axis, but of the Tripartite Alliance.  (The name Axis comes from the metaphor of the world rotating around the Rome-Berlin axis).  Suggest the boxes be just called Jap or Jpn.

In WiF FE, the Allied are opposed to the Axis. The Russians for example are part of the Allied Camp. Japan is part of the Axis camp.

Post 54:
 
Brunei really only deserves one hex.  The port is on the southwest coast of the bay, so perhaps move the bay down the coast.  The North Borneo - Brunei border was half way along the bay.

Brunei is small, and could be only 1 hex, but it is hard with this scale to show reality. I thought that it was not too bad that way. Not one of my best places on the map.

Banggi = Banguey

Well, my map show Banggi, and Banguey show no response on Wikipedia. Where did you find Banguey ?

Post 56
 
Very impressed you are aware that the railway went no further than Nanning!

However, here is a piece of esoteria for you to work in.  The reason the Japanese occupied north French-IndoChina was to cut off supplies to the KMT coming in via Haiphong.  Once this line of supply was denied them, the Chinese actually disassembled the rail-line from the border to Kunming because they needed the iron!  In game terms, this can be quite important, because it looks like the best way to cut the Burma Road is a Japanese offensive from northwest French-IndoChina to Kunming along the rail-line.  In reality, this was not a meaninful option.

Thanks for the story, but difficult to translate in game terms. In WiF, railways are permanent and indestructible.

Fic = FIC (as with NEI)

Yes, corrected.

Stay with MAS.

I do not know why, but the IOC preferred MAS and who am I to say different? I do not want to argue each of these with all the players who might want to change one or more. We'll just say "go argue with the IOC."[;)]

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: brian brian

I've been reading some Samuel Eliot Morrison lately, first the condensed volume and now the first Pacific volume. He reports that during the Japanese advance south, the Allies eventually began using a small port on the south side of Java, Tjilatjap as a base. The Langley was bound there with a load of P-40s when it was sunk, and one cargo freighter with more P-40s had already reached it. It also had a small dry-dock that was used in an attempt to repair some of the smaller ships in the former US Asiatic Squadron.

The 'Malay Barrier' is hard enough for the Japanese to defend already, and the change of scale makes this moreso as a few more of the hexes bordering the South China Sea are junlge hexes that can base planes automatically, so playing Japan I would hate to see this port on the map. But realistically it would seem to be a WiF-style minor port.

I only bring this up to get it on here electronically before I forget about it, so there is a record for future work on the map.

Adding a port, even minor here, would add a change that we do not want to add, as you said.
But I add the name, as it is one of those WWII famous names, as Akyab, and it deserve to be on the map.

As a note, adding a minor port here is trivial for those interested to have it in their games in the future.

What Patrice means is port locations are driven by data. The players have the ability to edit many data files.

[marcuswatney]

Burma Oil: I agree that the important thing is to force the Japanese to make the same sort of effort to reach the oil as in the earlier version.
 
Akyab and Imphal: Different people have different design philosophies.  I subscribe to the school that is known as 'Design for Effect'.  DFE's doctrine is that it is not important what actually is: what is important is that the game recreates the effect of reality.  Thus, you argue that in real life there is not enough plain for Imphal (and not enough swamp for Akyab) because in both places mountains predominate.  I say that what counts is where the fighting actually took place.  Since 90% of the military activity was on the plain and in the swamps, that's what should determine the terrain type.  Thus using DFE at Imphal mandates a plain-terrain hex in order to attract both sides to it as happened to the historical generals.  The size of the plain is immaterial.  After all, look at Midway's hex: 99% of that hex is empty sea in reality, but you wouldn't suggest leaving Midway off the map because of it!
 
So far as designing the Imphal corridor is concerned, I'd rather leave that to you, as it is years since I played the game and I cannot remember just how severe mountains are on movement and supply.  All that is important is to make the corridor attractive enough to both sides to draw them to use it.
 
Similarly with Cox's Bazar.  In that hex the only troop movements were in India, therefore the hex should be Indian (because it feels right).
 
Malayan rubber:  I take your point about not shipping straight out to sea, so suggest the second resource should be one hex NE of Kuala Lumpur: there was tin in Malaya too.
 
IOC codes:  These are anachronistic.  'Mas' stands for Malaysia which did not exist in the forties.  Malaysia was the name adopted at independence when Malaya, Sarawak and North Borneo united.  That's why the code changed from 'Mal' to 'Mas'.
 
Banguey: from my English atlases of 1936 and 1942.

[brian brian]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

I cannot remember just how severe mountains are on movement and supply. 

WiF is designed with playability in mind and thus the supply rules are rather generous, imo. From reading "Stilwell & the American Experience in China" and another book about the history of Jade, north Burma sounds like a hellatiously difficult place to run a military campaign. I've long though a simple change to help reflect this would be to make jungle hexes similar to desert hexes for supply effects. But this, of course, is only a possiblity later on in the game's development.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Burma Oil: I agree that the important thing is to force the Japanese to make the same sort of effort to reach the oil as in the earlier version.

Akyab and Imphal: Different people have different design philosophies.  I subscribe to the school that is known as 'Design for Effect'.  DFE's doctrine is that it is not important what actually is: what is important is that the game recreates the effect of reality.  Thus, you argue that in real life there is not enough plain for Imphal (and not enough swamp for Akyab) because in both places mountains predominate.  I say that what counts is where the fighting actually took place.  Since 90% of the military activity was on the plain and in the swamps, that's what should determine the terrain type.  Thus using DFE at Imphal mandates a plain-terrain hex in order to attract both sides to it as happened to the historical generals.  The size of the plain is immaterial.  After all, look at Midway's hex: 99% of that hex is empty sea in reality, but you wouldn't suggest leaving Midway off the map because of it!

So far as designing the Imphal corridor is concerned, I'd rather leave that to you, as it is years since I played the game and I cannot remember just how severe mountains are on movement and supply.  All that is important is to make the corridor attractive enough to both sides to draw them to use it.

Similarly with Cox's Bazar.  In that hex the only troop movements were in India, therefore the hex should be Indian (because it feels right).

Malayan rubber:  I take your point about not shipping straight out to sea, so suggest the second resource should be one hex NE of Kuala Lumpur: there was tin in Malaya too.

IOC codes:  These are anachronistic.  'Mas' stands for Malaysia which did not exist in the forties.  Malaysia was the name adopted at independence when Malaya, Sarawak and North Borneo united.  That's why the code changed from 'Mal' to 'Mas'.

Banguey: from my English atlases of 1936 and 1942.

Yes, the IOC codes are modern day. But I wanted a set of codes for the 252 named countries/territories in the game and the IOC list fulfilled that need. Finding historically accurate 3 letter abbreviations for all 252 seemed (and still seems) like a waste of my time. "Gilding the lily" comes to mind.

[marcuswatney]

Bet the IOC code doesn't have an entry for French Indo-China or Netherlands East Indies!  Don't be a slave to convention (in this case, literally!)  'Mas' refers to a nation yet to be created.  If you leave 'Mas' players will just assume its a typo and that the game hasn't been properly proof-read.

[Froonp]

IOC codes: These are anachronistic. 'Mas' stands for Malaysia which did not exist in the forties. Malaysia was the name adopted at independence when Malaya, Sarawak and North Borneo united. That's why the code changed from 'Mal' to 'Mas'.

I agree we should use MAL instead of MAS, for the same reason as you say. MAS is for MAlaSia, which was called MALaya during WWII.

[Froonp]

Malayan rubber: I take your point about not shipping straight out to sea, so suggest the second resource should be one hex NE of Kuala Lumpur: there was tin in Malaya too.

Would you have a map for Malayan resources that you could show me ? I have nothing about that.
Saw the entry about Malaya in the Oxford Companion to WW2, and they say that Malaya was a big Tin producer as well as Rubber, as you said. But I have no map showing the layout of those raw material.

[marcuswatney]

My motherlode source is Oxford Economic Atlas of the World.  Although my edition is dated 1959, in many cases it has pre-war statistics for comparison.  The bulk of the book is divided by resource, but at the back there are 'biographies' of each country.  How I love this book!
 
Tin: Malaya is both the largest ore-producer and largest ore-smelter.  Pre-war it smelted 38% of the world's tin.  "This trade is dominated by Malaya which exports over one third of the world's output, and the USA which imports almost half."  The small scale world map identifies the major producing district as Kinta/Larut, with lesser production at Kuala Lumpur and Seremban.  Google says that Kinta is a tributary of the Sungai Perak river, the valley lying between the Keledang and Main ranges, and refers to it being in the west.  Wiki says that Kinta is in Perak province, so a better site for the tin resource would be the mountain hex NW of Kuala Lumpur, rather than NE as I previously suggested.
 

[Froonp]

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
My motherlode source is Oxford Economic Atlas of the World.  Although my edition is dated 1959, in many cases it has pre-war statistics for comparison.  The bulk of the book is divided by resource, but at the back there are 'biographies' of each country.  How I love this book!

I wish I have it !
One of my prefered things with the MWiF map is trying to put names on resources (when possible), like for Ploesti oil wells, or the Krivoy Rog iron mining region in Ukraine.
If you find ideas of names for unnamed MWiF resources, please chime in with the suggestion !

Tin: Malaya is both the largest ore-producer and largest ore-smelter.  Pre-war it smelted 38% of the world's tin.  "This trade is dominated by Malaya which exports over one third of the world's output, and the USA which imports almost half."  The small scale world map identifies the major producing district as Kinta/Larut, with lesser production at Kuala Lumpur and Seremban.  Google says that Kinta is a tributary of the Sungai Perak river, the valley lying between the Keledang and Main ranges, and refers to it being in the west.  Wiki says that Kinta is in Perak province, so a better site for the tin resource would be the mountain hex NW of Kuala Lumpur, rather than NE as I previously suggested.

I like that.
You like that ? (map below)