Help! The IJN have developed cloaking technology

[Didz]

Its true, I swear it, the IJN have done a secret deal with the Romulan's and installed cloaking technology on their cruisers.

I even know the names of the ships involved and there's no other logical explanation.

For the past four nights these same four CA's Chokai; Nachi; Nikuma and Mikuma have been shelling Gilli Gilli. MacArthur has stood on the beach and counted the salvo's coming in and flashes of their guns are fully visible from the shore.

Then in the morning they are gone, disappeared nothing visible.

My first assumption was that they were sneaking back out to sea before daylight but there is only one way in and out of Gilli Gilli and thats through hexside 17:42 to 18:42 and I stationed two submarines one in 17:42 and one in 18:42 to check for the passage of these ships. Nothing moved in or out that was visible to them.

But next night they were back again and when I tried to slip a convoy into the port during daylight they were suddenly pounced on by these invisible raiders and the whole convoy was sunk.

How can four full size cruisers remain undetected within the harbour entrance of an enemy held port under the binoculars of the entire 7th Division, two submarines, and the naval search umbrella of of at least three airbases in broad daylight for four days?

[Sultanofsham]

I've seen the same thing night after night after night at Port Morsby. Im starting to wonder if there is some sort of bug here.

[Hartmann]

Don't think so. There's only a *chance* that your subs will detect the ships going through that hex, it's no necessity.

I had the situation where the Americans shell Lunga at night and then disappear several times. I think, though, that their location should be revealed when they hit a mine. In this case, we also get a report, so it would be reasonable if their DL would rise above 0, too.

Hartmann

[mogami]

Hi, They are standing off during the day and then coming in at night to shell, then they run out again. You can also do this. Mission type bombardment
Target the base on movement orders. Set retirment allowed (this means avoid during daylight) Also set no reaction.

Since they are moving at high speed during this period they are very hard for subs to catch.

[Rob Roberson]

...to remember that 30 miles of ocean (as represented by the hex) is huge. I fought these same so-called stealth ships in my AAR. I finally caught them one night through the concentration of surface forces.

[Didz]

I understand what you are saying but these guys seem to have charmed lives.

I mean five nights running now and not a hint of a sighting. And don't forget we are talking 10 ships passing through a single hexside access and exgress point here with subs posted either side. Even if the gap was 30 miles wide thats one ship per three miles five nights on the trot. What are the odds?

By comparison my subs patroling off Bougainville and Guadalcanal are regularly sighting convoys and making kills both night and day. Whilst yesterday an IJN Cruiser force landing troops at Salamoua got spotted strafed and then bombed into oblivion. So I reckon there's something special about bombardment missions.

BTW: Four of my B17 pilots even managed to drag themselves from the bar to join in the attack at Sal. The rest couldn't make it cos they had a sewing circle to attend.

p.s. Is there anypoint in strafing ships, it seems to generate a lot of satisfying hits and smoke but I doubt any serious damage is being done. I am assuming its better to gain a bit of altitude and drop bombs on them instead.

[Didz]

Originally posted by Rob Roberson
...to remember that 30 miles of ocean (as represented by the hex) is huge. I fought these same so-called stealth ships in my AAR. I finally caught them one night through the concentration of surface forces.

The last thing I want to do is concentrate my surface forces within strike range of Rabaul. I'd rather let them keep shelling.

[von Murrin]

Didz,

That's been happening to me, too. In my case, it's a 2BB 3CA 1CL etc. TF that's coming from Shortland.

Do you have any PBY's at Moresby? That helps, because I can now spot them 50% of the time on the way in and 50% on the way out. At least it gives you some warning.

Also, Rob is right. I put a big cruiser force in Gili and caught a CA TF that was also playing the bombardment game. The great thing about doing this is that even if you lose, you can catch the damaged ships with your LBA. An interception should buy you the time to build up the base a bit better.

Oh, and if you can get a CD LCU into Gili the Japs will leave it alone after a while.

[mogami]

Hi, In my scenario 17 as Allies. IJN have shelled PM twice and escaped. Once I had Lex and Yorktown 3 hexes away all set to annihilate them but the weather canceled my flight ops and the buggers were up past Gilli by the next day. Now I have a cruiser TF patrolling PM and the birdfarms near by. Patrol planes have spotted a IJN TF heading down (5 hexes north of Gilli channel)
I'm going to merder da bums this time.

[mogami]

Hi, those invisable Japs ran into Chin Lee, Willis was outnumbered but still kicked some serious butt, then Spruance sprang the trap I don't think these particular rats will be coming back to PM any time soon. Yee haw


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 06/01/42

Night Time Surface Combat, near Port Moresby at 10,40

Japanese Ships
CA Haguro
CA Aoba, Shell hits 1
CA Kinugasa, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 9, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CA Kako, Shell hits 5, on fire
CL Tenryu, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Shigure
DD Yugure
DD Ariake
DD Akebono
DD Ushio
DD Mutsuki
DD Yayoi
DD Mochizuki
DD Kikuzuki

Allied Ships
CA Portland, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Australia, Shell hits 3, on fire
CL Hobart
DD Farragut
DD Dewey
DD Monaghan, Shell hits 8, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Alwin, Shell hits 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 15,44


Allied aircraft
SBD Dauntless x 32


Allied aircraft losses
SBD Dauntless x 3 damaged

Japanese Ships
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 5, on fire, heavy damage
CA Kako, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CL Tenryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 15,44


Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 13
SBD Dauntless x 36
P-39D Airacobra x 7
B-26B Marauder x 6


no losses

Japanese Ships
CA Kako, Bomb hits 1, on fire
CA Kinugasa, Bomb hits 8, on fire, heavy damage
CL Tenryu, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

Attacking Level Bombers:
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder at 6000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air attack on TF at 9,43

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11
B5N Kate x 8

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero x 1 destroyed
B5N Kate x 2 damaged


Allied Ships
CV Yorktown

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Sultanofsham]

That seems to be the only way to deal with them. I have no idea why search aircraft from the the mainland almost never spot them. Even worse is if the unthinkable happens and they do spot something the LBA from the mainland will not attack. As soon as I put any ship with search aircraft in the area I spot them and the LBA get off their butts and bomb.

[sbond]

The manual states this is intentional, and follows real world history of the Japanese warfare. You will not get them with Landbased bombers because they know the exact range of your planes, they come in at night and run back out before sunrise. I have found two ways to deal with them.

One is to use a Carrier Task Force and the other is a large surface force set just outside of gili gili and set to react to enemy, when they are spotted they rush into the base and attack.

The Carriers are much better, I move them just south and east of the big reef east of Gili Gili, this is out of range for the bombers from Rabual (there were some subs there once). From there I send them north about 5 hexs above the reef and from there they will spot the bombardment force and attack it. Everytime I have done this the bombers from rabual were to slow to react, and never got more then 10 or 15 bombers attacking the CV group, most of their bombers were busy bombing Gili Gili. I have had no problems yet from the Rabual bombers, but then they could always get lucky. I then take the CV group south to Australia and replensh. If I do not then the Japanese will react with carriers into the area, and I have had no luck defeating those yet. But if you want to draw the Japanese into a big fight this is a sure way to do it.

[johnmac]

I think...but am not sure... that LBA only performs naval attacks when the detection level is sufficiently good.

This is the only way I can explain the tendency (as Rob says) of my pilots to spend all day sitting on their arses sipping pina coladas.

Anyone else have any data to corroborate/refute this?

[Didz]

Originally posted by sbond
The manual states this is intentional, and follows real world history of the Japanese warfare. You will not get them with Landbased bombers because they know the exact range of your planes, they come in at night and run back out before sunrise. I have found two ways to deal with them.

Sorry! I dont buy that for two reasons.

1. To do that all ten ships would have to run my double sub screen on hexside 17:42 to 18:42 twice a day. Once at dusk to enter Gilli Gilli harbour and once at dawn to exit again. The odds of 10 ships doing that twenty times without creating a ripple in a subs periscope don't figure. Not when I'm clocking up one or two sightings a day with single sub patrols elsewhere.

2. If they were out at sea beyond LBA range during the day then my convoys heading into Gilli Gilli would be able to make the dash into port during daylight hours. Now I've only tried this once but when I did they ran into the full IJN TF in daylight, in 17:42 and I lost every ship in the convoy.

So! I don't think they move at all. I think they sit in 17:42 day and night but that the program engages a cloak on them during the day to stop them being spotted by LBA. Perhaps to simulate a run out to sea without having to plot it.

I hope that I'm wrong but at the minute thats what it looks like.

I have come across this sort of thing before. Its quite common in the Talonsoft games and comes under the all encompassing umbrella of 'play balancing'. Perhaps without a cloak its just too difficult for the AI to set up bombardment missions that work. I can remeber trying to do it in Carriers at War and it was a pig to organise and time.

On a practical note however, if the IJN can run such cloaked missions and sit outside Port Moresby without being detected then what hope is there for stopping them sitting in 17:42 for the rest of the war.

[Didz]

Originally posted by von Murrin
Didz,

Do you have any PBY's at Moresby? That helps, because I can now spot them 50% of the time on the way in and 50% on the way out. At least it gives you some warning.

No I don't but my PBY's and B17's from Cairns and Cooktown are clocking Jap ships as far out Rabaul and lets face it Gilli Gilli is a known 'hot spot' in view of recent events and ought to be given focus.

Also, Rob is right. I put a big cruiser force in Gili and caught a CA TF that was also playing the bombardment game. The great thing about doing this is that even if you lose, you can catch the damaged ships with your LBA. An interception should buy you the time to build up the base a bit better.

I haven't tried this and don't really want to. Gilli Gilli are getting daily visits from the Jap airforce based a Rabaul and I just know anything I stick in 17:42 isn't coming out again. Unlike my LBA they seem able to spot a single MSW is 30 miles of ocean so they are not going to miss a large combat TF. The only way it would work is if I timed it to coincide with bad weather over Rabaul and I don't know how to do that effectively.

Its not my in keeping with my strategy for the current game anyway. At present I am avoiding direct naval combat and conducting a war of attrition on IJN logistical support.

I realise this isn't the way most people are playing this game and I have read all the reports of epic battles between carrier battle groups etc. But I cut my teeth on the original Carrier at War game for the C64 and that was all about preserving your ships and stalking the enemies and that's been a big influence on my playing style. My kids also point out that I'm the only person they know who can take 2 hours to complete a 30 minute scenario on Red Alert 2 so what can I say. I'm playing 'cat and mouse' with carriers at the minute and loving every minute/hour of it.

Oh, and if you can get a CD LCU into Gili the Japs will leave it alone after a while.

What's a CD LCU??

[Didz]

Originally posted by Mogami
Hi, those invisable Japs ran into Chin Lee, Willis was outnumbered but still kicked some serious butt, then Spruance sprang the trap I don't think these particular rats will be coming back to PM any time soon. Yee haw

Now what interested me about your post was that according to your battle reports there was no counter-attack or support for the IJN bombardment group from carrier borne aircraft.

This is weird and suggests that the AI is sending in unsupported bombardment missions.

Experience from my Carriers at War days led me to beleive that bombardment missions are usually so perilous for the ships involved that unless the target was a completely isolated island you only used Bombardment missions as a prelude to invasion and even then you backed them up heavily with Carrier borne air cover and a second heavier battlegroup.

So by rights your interception should have resulted in mutually assured destruction for both TF's with yours being hit by a carrier strike just after there's was hit by your LBA possibly followed by the arrival of an even heavier BG to clean up the leftovers.

I would also expect an invasion force to hanging about just outside your air umbrella waiting to pounce.

I'm not an expert on WWII but was it normal for the IJN to bombard allied bases just because they are there with no support and no follow through.

[Sultanofsham]

Originally posted by johnmac
I think...but am not sure... that LBA only performs naval attacks when the detection level is sufficiently good.

This is the only way I can explain the tendency (as Rob says) of my pilots to spend all day sitting on their arses sipping pina coladas.

Anyone else have any data to corroborate/refute this?

I think your right but I wish one of the Matrix guys would chime in on it so we could be sure.

[Didz]

Originally posted by Sultanofsham



I think your right but I wish one of the Matrix guys would chime in on it so we could be sure.

I also think that if it is true there should be a way of influencing the effectiveness of the search pattern.

In CAW it was possible to focus search planes on specific quadrants so that if you were aware of enemy ships operating in a given area you could increase your chances of spotting them by focussing your search in that direction.

[Sultanofsham]

Originally posted by sbond
The manual states this is intentional, and follows real world history of the Japanese warfare. You will not get them with Landbased bombers because they know the exact range of your planes, they come in at night and run back out before sunrise.

That doesnt account for Port Morsby. To make their run to PM the Japs sit a few hexs south of Gilli which is well within LBA range of Cooktown. It also doesnt account why you can spot transports coming from Rabal to Gilli with ease but these Bombardment TFs seem to have a cloaking device.

[Sultanofsham]

Originally posted by Didz


I also think that if it is true there should be a way of influencing the effectiveness of the search pattern.

In CAW it was possible to focus search planes on specific quadrants so that if you were aware of enemy ships operating in a given area you could increase your chances of spotting them by focussing your search in that direction.

Yeah that would be a good thing for a patch or at least something that needs to be in WITP.