Historical versus game

[kevsharr]

Regarding Rudel he may have been a commited nazi but as far as being a product of nazi propaganda I beg to difer.The man flew over 2500 combat mission's in a little over three year's that's close to two and a half a day every day.Late in the war he flew mission's with his leg in a cast.On several occasion's he was ordered by Hitler and Goering to cease flying,he refused.On the occasion of the award of the golden oakleaves which was designed specifically for him he refused to accept it if it meant he had to stop flying.Later after he was absolutly ordered to stop flying he flew anyway and put his tank kill's in the shared kill's list for the entire unit,naturelly some higher up noticed the manifold increase in shared kill's and deduced that Rudel was still active but he flew all the way to the last day's of the war.Granted he was a unrepentant nazi singing praises for Hitler till the day he died but for bravery,skill{he flew a Ju-87 long after it was considered obsolete}and devotion to duty he is without peer's in the annal's of aviation history.....To you a hero is somekind of weird sandwich...Oddball

[Charles2222]

AmmoSgt: We're having to hypothesize with some loose data here. First off the 40% figure was based on 500 kills off the 2530 figure. Understand that it was actually 2130 and that the other report showed the kills to be 519, and that's not even including the over 1,000 other vehicles, which I take were more than likely even more difficult to hit than tanks. That's getting fairly close to a vehicle of some sort per mission. Needless to say the data points out that there were missions where he either didn't have vehicles or tanks to target and that he concentrated on flak etc. Even so, he came close to tallying a "vehicle" kill per sortie. And, no, not all these sorties were in the tank-buster model either.

Of course Rudel doesn't fly every Stuka, but then I have no data to suggest tanks were all so difficult to destroy via the tank-buster, or the thinner tanks before the tank-buster, only that you think so based on ship attacks from what may be the somewhat isolated incident based on a broadcast Channel skirmish (BTW, in that engagement, a "Messershmidt" as it was called (a 109?) was shot down by a British fighter, so perhaps while the Stukas may had sounded unmolested, it's evident that there were at least aerial opposition possible, and as I say, tanks probably don't see it coming, while ships do.

That sounds like about what most folks who are complaining say they are getting with average pilots in non AT versions of Stukas .. So maybe we ought to further cut back on Stuka accuracy and effectiveness , so that in the game not every early version , non AT Stuka flown by Very Good but not quite Rudel pilots are matching Rudels Record.. say they do half as good .. that would mean half of all Stukas bought would do no damage and only 1 in 5 Stukas bought would actually be expected to knock out a Tank ?

You haven't tried using these Stukas have you????? Let's use my revised Rudel figures, let's say 519 out of 2130. Understand that I'm guessing at least half those missions weren't gearing for tanks, or that there just weren't any present. So now we have 519 out of 1065, close to a 50% ratio. IF we can assume that Rudel had TWICE the skill of the average Stuka pilot, then Stuka pilots should achieve at least a 25% tank kill ratio, yes? I haven't tried any tank-busters in 7.1, but in earlier versions you were lucky if you achieved a 10% ratio with the ordinary Stuka. Yes, the tank-buster should be more effective, but the ordinary model was going up against generally thinner-skinned tanks. Anybody that would expect a kill on a T34 or KV1 with the all but a top hit on those tanks is daydreaming, but even so I think the top hits weren't either being registered or they just didn't kill them with that 500lb. bomb. And whether the program considers bomb drop angle to slope I don't know, for a T34s RH slope would be practically meaningless from above.

Something else to keep in mind when you think along the lines, even if you accept these adjusted figures of getting close to Rudel taking out a vehicle per sortie, and that is that this says nothing about accuracy of the bomb or the cannons. While you need accuracy to get the kill, the point I was making earlier with the isolated Rudel incident was that he had only 12 rounds but got 4 kills. He could've fired 4 rounds and got 4 kills, or he could've fired all 12 and got 4 kills. In any case it shows the 'kill ratio' not the 'accuracy ratio'. It just shows to me that the tanks weren't that difficult to hit with a Stuka, or at least I don't consider between 33% and 100% (as those figures are between that somewhere) as really that difficult. If we take the median position, he was hitting with 66% of his 37mm, that surely isn't a difficult shot to make. So maybe the average tank-buster pilot only hit 33% of the time, but these cannons weren't like rockets, they were direct-fire and didn't go scooting off on with something of a life of their own. Even if the accuracy figure was as low as 20%, that in game terms, should the pilot expend 10 or more of the 12 rounds, call for 2 hits, and in the game they were "maybe" hitting once and then of course they weren't causing damage either. Have you ever played anybody who used a Stuka, and you in game terms feared it? If I see anything heading for my tanks, I expect about 50% of the time, or better, if the tank is hit I've lost it, and yet "maybe" 10% of the time, if that, the Stukas achieved success.

Basically, be the Stuka bomb-laden or not, the people can't believe that something that enjoyed such a fame for tank-busting could do so awfully. I understand that the bomb-laden version would be more effective against the Poles and Brits, than against T34s, and hopefully people consider that, but anytime I used them against the most ordinary thin-skinned tank, top hit or not, they were just useless. The ME110 was more effective.

[Kanon Fodder]

I threw together a quickie scenario to test the Stuka's performance.

One advantage right away with the 37mm is you get repeat attacks.

I found it was quite capable against BT-7 and T-34, and reasonable against the KV and SU-122 and SU152 but not much use against the JS series except the early versions.

Armed with bombs the results were not as good, althought there was a better chance of crew kills; if an earlier hit cause the crew to bail a subsequent bomb hit would almost certainly finish them off.

For my testing I used 8 Stukas armed with the 37mm and 4 with bombs.

The Soviet force comprised (5) BT-7, (2) KV-1S, (2) KV-85, (3) T-34E, (3) T-34/85, (2) IS-1, (2) IS-2, (2) SU-122, (2) SU-152 and (2) ISU-152

After 12 turns the Soviet force is usually, for all intents and purposes, wiped out.

Repeated attacks on the heavier tanks usually result in their routing from the field.

I saw one lucky hit from the SO HQ squad take down a Stuka.

When I tried a similar experiment using US tanks the Stukas performed admirably, ususally obliterating the US force in short order.

The AA MG on the US tanks usually managed to take out one plane per test.

I realize that the number of aircraft far exceeds the normal allotment for a given scenario, but this test was strictly to see if the Ju87G could take out tanks with any kind of regularity.

One thing I did notice was that the 37mm BK 3.7 comes supplied with 10 HE and only 2 AP rounds. When I tried changing to 0 HE and 12 AP the plane only fired MG.

Shouldn't these be armed with AP ammunition if they were meant to be "Tank Busters" ?

[Charles2222]

Kanon Fodder: Interesting. You mentioned that they were able to make multiple sorties. If that's so, I would wonder how much and what type of ammunition was expended each sortie. I mean did the 37mm fire one AP round and that was it? You must be partially wrong there or maybe it's just the extraordinariness of your test but I know the bomb-laden ones never come back, as mine always had one point of damage irrespective of whether any fire hit them or not. They succor one damage point to keep them from returning, as I understand it.

I was very unsure of 37mm Stuka performance in V.7.1, but in the earlier versions it was truly horrific. I did suspect they were better because I did actually have some cannon air that had done some pretty decent work, such as the ME110. I think a lot of people are getting mixed up on which version was doing pathetic with tank-busters and which were not, as the opening post states it was the earlier versions which were better. I suppose if he is playing an MC, that would explain it, as anyone can do anything with those. Hoping you can kill T34s and KVs with the 500lb. bomb isn't very promising. I guess you have to save the Stukas like that for the lighter stuff.

In my Rudel book at home, they have a picture of his having knocked out a JSII.

[laatokka]

Ju 87G-1 were actually just modified Ju87D-5 airframes.
It used 2 BK 3,7cm guns (Flak 18) firing wolfram cored (tungsten/APCR) special ammunition at 850m/s. It was enough to get clean penetration in T-34/85 side turret and lower side hull. Thin engine deck was also favored target to easily put tank out of action.

[Kanon Fodder]

Forget the above post of mine ...

The results are tainted. I found I had given the Stukas 12 ea of AP and HE for the 37mm. This must be what allowed them to return several times, as well as improve their results.

I just did another quick test using (5) BT-7 with two Stukas armed with the 37mm with standard load of 10 HE and 2 AP

I ran the scenario 4 times. The best result I got was (2) kills.

Only once did both planes get (2) sorties. As Charles pointed out, one plane per turn took "damage" and was unavailable for the next strike.

Back to the drawing board ...

[Fallschirmjager]

Some more tips Ive found work good for armor are:

Light tanks are excellent for getting around the enimies flanks.

If you can get 2 of your units on the front and rear of the enemy tank shoot anything at its back and itll turn its turret at you and fire. Then simply fire at its front and there is a good chance you will hit it in the back or the turret(unsually the weakest part of a tank) for an easy kill. If it doesnt work the first time, simply repeat.

Also another good tactic ive found is, whenever possible avoid angled shots as this multiplys the armored value through the roof.

Good hunting.

[Charles2222]

Kannon Fodder:

I just did another quick test using (5) BT-7 with two Stukas armed with the 37mm with standard load of 10 HE and 2 AP

I ran the scenario 4 times. The best result I got was (2) kills.

If we work off the worst case accuracy (but it was actually 'kills' not just 'hits') for the reported strike for Rudel, of 4 kills with 12 rounds, then if these planes fired the 12 rounds ONLY once per sortie, then 2 kills being the maximum for 4 average pilots might not be so bad, but then if they had fired off between 6-12 rounds per sortie the results were truly pathetic. If they won't fire off at least half the load per sortie, and can't return, then you'd have to ask why not more ammo expended. You'd think any Stuka pilot would fire off a minimum of a couple of rounds when he was sure jhe was going to hit.

This still doesn't explain why the AI has had to this point in my V.7.1 WWII campaigns, three times the rate of air support (or more for all I know, since he could've refused some chances) I've been able to pick. This can be pretty critical for GE, because I think their offboard artillery outranges few of their opponents. What was the need if they had flying artillery? Boy, I hope something will be done about this in CL. I can't wait to attack what was offboard artillery for a prior battle, and Stukas should do nicely to remedy that.

[Charles2222]

laatokka: In reading about Rudel, he had said that they would often attack T34s from the rear in order to hit the relatively unprotected engines. He said a good thing about that, was if they were hit by flack they would already be heading back towards their base too.

[RockinHarry]

I did some test scenario yesterday and found the early StugIIIb modertely successful when engaing T-34 at ranges below 300 yards (6 hexes) and when shooting at the side armor. Managed to get some vulnerable location hits at front though. I think the difference between the Lost Victories Wittmann scenario and the current V7.1 test is that the new armor system (armored skirts values=Face hardened, cast ect.) is not implemented in the Lost Victories scenarios. Probably would have taken another 3 months to convert 250 scenarios!
I think the skirt=50 value givs the T-34 armor some 0.84 penetration penalty.

From the scenario text that describes the actions of Wittmanns tank at hill 64.5, it´s not clear at what ranges the T-34 were engaged, but I think they were pretty close and the gunner aimed for side hits. From the reading it seems it was some cat and mouse gamble, with the Stug picking off the soviet mediums one after another from covered position and probably out of sight of more than 1-2 soviet tanks at the same time.

Engagements like this are hard to reproduce with the borg hive mind SPWAW sytem, but anyway the Wittmann scenario is some kind of bonus to Kampfgruppe Vebbers battles and reminds us that Wittmann started his career not in a Tiger! Still very impressing this success with one short barrelled Stug against 6 T-34 tanks!

___________
Harry

[Charles2222]

RockinHarry:

I think the difference between the Lost Victories Wittmann scenario and the current V7.1 test is that the new armor system (armored skirts values=Face hardened, cast ect.) is not implemented in the Lost Victories scenarios. Probably would have taken another 3 months to convert 250 scenarios!

That certainly sounds reasonable.

[laatokka]

Air to ground rockets should be much less effective against tanks that they are in game.

British got 1/6 hit change at best when they test fired their rockets against
mock up tank in open field. Soviet rockets were even more inaccurate.

US study of their jabo efficienty in normandy brought disappointing results. Pilots overclaimed vehicle kills almost 10fold. When battlefields were studied, it was found out that only tiny fraction of german panzers were actually destroyed by rockets or bombs. Airattacks had more of supressing effect which halted german advances and made green tankers even abandon their panzers. When german tanks couldn't maneuver they were more easily defeated on ground. It was also noticed that it needed direct hit from rocket to destroy a panzer. There was quite a few Panzers found intact... undamaged, but abandoned with many rocket craters nearby.

Bombs weren't much more effective. You would need almost direct hit with 500kg bomb to kill mid/late war medium tank. It wasn't unusual tho that crew abandoned their tank in panic after bomb near miss or even hit with no serious damage.

High velocity cannon were found most efficient tank killers.
23mm Vya in Il-2
37mm BK 3,7 in Ju-87
37mm BK 3,7 in Hs-129
37mm NS37 in p39
40mm ? in Hurricane II
and so on.

Ju87 was definetely most succesful of LW tank killers in WW2s.
Il-2 was same for soviets.

[Grenadier]

Red Baron and I combined to make this scenario as a bonus for those that did well so if you are playing it you are at least on the path to a marginal victory in Lost Victories. In order to make sure the player had a decent chance of killing the T-34's Red baron made some modifications to the gun and ammo. This was tested several times to get the balance and timing for reaching the VO's down. It is a cat and mouse battle and Wittmann used many of the tactics he later used at VB, like a reconnaissance on foot and firing from ambush. There is a 10 page scction in the book Tiger Ace that describes this battle. There are other accounts that imply the tanks were not all T-34's but as this is supposed to be Wittmann we stayed with the T-34's. Wittmann was not a fervent Nazi but a caring human being who put the welfare of a wounded Russian before his own after this battle, asking Dietrich to make sure the Russian was taken care of.

[Kevin E. Duguay]

The problem with the Stuka G is that the 37mm guns should only carry AP or APCR ammo. After all this aircraft was a tank buster in this configuration. The Stuka G could also carry a bomb load if the 37mm guns were removed.
As far as aircraft not attacking infantry targets, could this be a problem of the ammo mix? Even aircraft with just mg armmament have AP rounds to expend. And this is just a thought, could it be that as long as the aircraft has AP rounds it will only attack targets with some type of armor factor? Don't have time to test this idea out right now but I sure would like to see the results!;)

[V-man]

Originally posted by tiggwigg

the important thing is to knock-out the light tanks first (BT's and t-26)...as others have observed, this can be very hard, taking up to 5 hits in some cases...

This is easy. Any defense should have as much depth as possible.

Using your own lights forward (lose the armored cars) to shoot up *his* lights, using artillery to break up his formations by cratering the landscape, you eliminate his recon screen and then start dictating the engagement,

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
The problem with the Stuka G is that the 37mm guns should only carry AP or APCR ammo. After all this aircraft was a tank buster in this configuration. The Stuka G could also carry a bomb load if the 37mm guns were removed.
As far as aircraft not attacking infantry targets, could this be a problem of the ammo mix? Even aircraft with just mg armmament have AP rounds to expend. And this is just a thought, could it be that as long as the aircraft has AP rounds it will only attack targets with some type of armor factor? Don't have time to test this idea out right now but I sure would like to see the results!;)

To avoid confusion on ammo loads for planes:

The HE ammo shown is the complete ammo for a type of guns, bombs or rockets. This can be single bombs or salvos for auto cannons.
The AP ammo is actually the NUMBER of GUNS of a single type.
.50 cal with HE 20 and AP 6 has to be read as 6 .50 cal aircraft cannons with 20 salvos each.
There is only one ammo type for aircraft cannons in the game and that's HE (and that stands for all other types, too).

hope that helps...

[Kevin E. Duguay]

Planes suck VS infantry. Tried a little test and even when attacking from the rear one aircraft still went about 15 hexes out of its way and beyond enemy lines into the frendly zone to attack the halftrack that spotted for the attack. Aircraft are to reluctant when it comes to attacking infantry. Can any body fix this? Talk about a reality crunch, Stuka out of bombs(that hit my halftrack) but still goes out of its way to attack armor with its puny 7.92mm MGs instead of the pile of infantry 12 hexes away that was its assigned target. Just a glitch? I can hear the conversation now " Ive got infantry about to over run my right flank. We need an air strike to help neutralize the threat." " Sure thing, as soon as we blast your OP into oblivion and maybe get a tank or two we'll get back to ya. Have a nice day." BUY ARTILLERY it listens better!!:mad:

[laatokka]

Originally posted by Kevin E. Duguay
The problem with the Stuka G is that the 37mm guns should only carry AP or APCR ammo. After all this aircraft was a tank buster in this configuration. The Stuka G could also carry a bomb load if the 37mm guns were removed.
As far as aircraft not attacking infantry targets, could this be a problem of the ammo mix? Even aircraft with just mg armmament have AP rounds to expend. And this is just a thought, could it be that as long as the aircraft has AP rounds it will only attack targets with some type of armor factor? Don't have time to test this idea out right now but I sure would like to see the results!;)

Ju-87g-1 and g-2 BK 3.7s didn't use plain AP ammo at all. They use only APCR (wolfram cored "hartkern" special ammunition) BK 3.7 was derieved from german 37mm Flak 36.

Ju 87g-1 without BK 3.7s was actually Ju 87D-5(all 7.9mm guns except for rear gunner were removed from all G-1s). D-5 was able to carry BC1400 (1400kg) armor-piercing bomb or 1xSC500(500kg) and 2xSC250(250kg) bombs.

In SPWAW 37mm Flak 38 has AP value of 48 and BK 3.7 has AP value of 40.
IRL I would assume performance to be similar with same ammunition, since same weapons are in question. BK 3.7(Flak 36) APCR penetrated over 70mm of armor at point blank ranges. (75mm T-34/85 side turrets were regularly penetrated).

So Ju 87G-1 just doesn't have guns to be tank killer which it was IRL.

In short.
BK 3.7
SPWAW armor penetration at 50m 40mm.
REAL armor penetration at 50m 75mm. (APCR)

[Panzer Leo]

Originally posted by laatokka


Ju-87g-1 and g-2 BK 3.7s didn't use plain AP ammo at all. They use only APCR (wolfram cored "hartkern" special ammunition) BK 3.7 was derieved from german 37mm Flak 36.

Ju 87g-1 without BK 3.7s was actually Ju 87D-5(all 7.9mm guns except for rear gunner were removed from all G-1s). D-5 was able to carry BC1400 (1400kg) armor-piercing bomb or 1xSC500(500kg) and 2xSC250(250kg) bombs.

In SPWAW 37mm Flak 38 has AP value of 48 and BK 3.7 has AP value of 40.
IRL I would assume performance to be similar with same ammunition, since same weapons are in question. BK 3.7(Flak 36) APCR penetrated over 70mm of armor at point blank ranges. (75mm T-34/85 side turrets were regularly penetrated).

So Ju 87G-1 just doesn't have guns to be tank killer which it was IRL.

In short.
BK 3.7
SPWAW armor penetration at 50m 40mm.
REAL armor penetration at 50m 75mm. (APCR)

Do you have some good links or so...I can't find any sources for 37mm FlaK APCR ammo...?

[laatokka]

Other little errors I found.

FW 190G-2 has wrong cannons.
should have 2xMG151/20 no MG/FFs.

Ju-87B rarity is at 2. It was one of most common LW ground attackers in early war.

Hs129B-3 rarity is at 1. It was very very rare. AFAIK used by only 1 test squadron. Also Hs129B-3 with 75mm PaK 40 had 7.9mm mgs removed and designation changed to Hs 129B-3/Wa (Waffentrager)

Also 190s all were very usual ground attackers. Even A models from fighter squadrons. 190F-8 was mostly used with 500kg and 4x50kg bombs, AFAIK rockets we have in SPWAW were only in test units in 44-45.

Here my scetch for usual attack planes/loadouts for LW, if someone wants to edit his OOBs more realistic:

Bf 109E-1/B (Feb 1939-1940)
4xMG 17, 1x250kg bomb. rarity 1.

Bf 109E-4/B (Dec 1939-1943)
2xMG 17, 2xMG/FF, 1x250kg bomb. rarity 0.

Bf 109F-4/B (July 1941-1943)
2xMG 17, 1xMG151/20, 1x500kg bomb. rarity 1.

Bf 109G-2/R1 (Oct 1942-1944)
2xMG 17, 1xMG151/20, 1x500KG bomb. rarity 1.

Bf 110C-4/B (Aug 1940-1943)
4xMG 17, 2xMG/FF, 2x250kg bomb, 4x50kg bomb. rarity 1.

Bf 110D-2 (Jan 1941-1943)
4xMG 17, 2xMG/FF, 2x500kg bomb. rarity 1.

Ju 87B-1 (1937-1940)
2xMG 17, 1x500kg bomb, 4x50kg bomb. rarity 1.

Ju 87B-2 (Jun 1940-1943)
2xMG 17, 1x500kg bomb, 4x50kg bomb. rarity 0.

Ju 87D-5 (Jun 1942-1949)
2xMG 17, 1x500kg bomb, 2x250kg bombs. rarity 2.

Ju 87G-1 (Apr 1943-1949)
2xBK 3,7. rarity 3.

FW 189A-1 (June 1940-1949)
2xMG 17, 4x50kg bombs. rarity 2.

FW 190A-4 (Jul 1942-1943)
2xMG 17, 2xMG151/20, 2xMG/FF, 1x500kg bomb. rarity 1.

FW 190A-6 (Jun 1943-1944)
2xMG 17, 4xMG151/20, 1x500kg bomb. rarity 1.

FW 190F-2 (Jan 1943-1944)
2xMG17, 2xMG151/20, 1x500kg bomb, rarity 1.

FW 190F-3 (Jan 1944-1949)
2xMG17, 2xMG151/20, 1x500kg bomb, rarity 1.

FW 190G-2 (Dec 1942-1943)
2xMG17, 2xMG151/20, 500kg bomb, rarity 1.

FW 190G-8 (Jan 1944-1949)
2xMG151/20, 1000kg bomb, rarity 2.

FW 190F-8 (Jan 1944-1949)
2xMG 131, 2xMG151/20, 6x280mm rockets. rarity 3.

FW 190D-9 (Oct 1944-1949)
2xMG131, 2x151/20, 1x500kg bomb. rarity 2.

Hs 129B-2/R1 (Jun 1942-1943)
2xMG 17, 2xMG151/20, 2xstreuwaffen. rarity 2.

Hs 129B-2/R3 (Jun 1942-1943)
2xMG17, 2xMG151/20, 1xMK101. rarity 1.

Hs 129B-3/Wa (Jan 1944-1949)
1x75mm PaK 40. rarity 3.

Me 410A-1 (Jan 1943-1949)
2xmg17, 4xmg151/20, 4x250kg bombs. rarity 2.

Me 262A-2 (Jul 1944-1949)
4x30mm MK108, 2x500kg bombs. rarity 3.

Hs 123 (June 1936-1944)
2xMG 15, 4x50kg bombs. rarity 3.