Poll - How long should turns be:

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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Didz
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Re: You can't be serious...

Post by Didz »

Originally posted by Erik Rutins

Wargamers love detail and control.
Not sure I agree 100% with this comment.

I would agree that most wargamers are control freaks.

I regularly moderate historical roleplay's of Napoloenic campaigns and the agony most wargamers go through when they can't see anything and have to send messages by horse can be quite amusing.

However, I'm not sure that this obsession with being in control is satisfied by bombarding players with irrelevant detail and mind numbingly mundate book-keeping tasks. Contrary to the propaganda for example Napoleon did not know the names of every soldier in the 28e Ligne and I don't feel the need for that information either.

However, if the 28e Ligne were about to be pounced on by enemy cavalry I would at least expect to have the chance to shout 'Form Square' even though I fully accept that it may be a job for the Chef 'd'Battalion.

UV seems on the one hand to bombard us with irrelevant detail whilst deny us the chance to intervene in the important events.

Right! I'll shut up now and get back to counting how many capacity points I need to shove all these Aussie Soldiers onto AP's. Oh! **** Flght Lt Pebbles just got killed I really was relying on him to win the war.;)
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Post by elmo3 »

Didz

The biggest drawback I would see, were I programming UV, to 6 or 12 hour turns would be keeping track of all the planes that would now be in the air at the end of a turn. Right now all planes end the turn on the ground. With 75% of us happy with a minimum turn length of 24 hours it is unlikely 2by3 will make that kind of programming effort. I'll bet if they do then someone will want to be able to redirect strikes in the air!

Your play must differ from mine significantly. I can't ever recall a TF going 20+ hexes in one day but to be honest I don't play with the hex grid on. Nor have I ever had an Allied TF "ram" Rabaul. It is rare they even come within it's LBA range except when I forget to set the "Do not react" order.

There will always be a mix of tactical and operational decisions in any good operational game. Where to draw the line will continue to be a point of debate as long as there are games. I don't agree that the game "expects" you to check sub torpedo loads though. Subs are set to computer control by default. The game "allows" you to check torpedo loads if you want to mess with sub tactics. Since it is optional I view it as a good design choice.

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Post by elmo3 »

Didz

Good point about Lt Pebbles. IIRC BoB and BTR had several selectable levels of reporting. That would be a nice feature to have in UV and WitP.

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Post by Preacher »

I really don't understand the argument to lower turn execution to 6 hrs (more or less) in order to be more comfortable with the distances covered per turn. 22 hexes in 24 hours or 6 hexes in 6 hours. What's the difference? I realize that folks point to the fact that with 6-hour turn execution they will be able - hopefully :) - to "override" TF commander discretion (indiscretion?), but can that not be fixed by setting React priorities in the first place?

Specifically, the problem seems to be with carriers charging into LBA range. They won't do that when set to Do Not React... I'm not sure how 6-hour execution would solve this (maybe TF commander execution would, however :)). Let's say you are set to React with your carriers and 1 hr into the 6 hr execution the carriers see an enemy CV TF and react. That gives them 5 hrs to move at flank speed to greet them. PLENTY of time to enter the range of enemy LBA and get pummeled before we players get to intervene. Oops, same "problem." What, then, would be the solution to that? 1-hr execution? 30-min? Those time scales just don't work with the map scale (nor does 6- or 12-hour, imo). Again, it is a highly detailed OPERATIONAL game.

Anyhoo, this is a good - and CIVIL - discussion. Kudos all around.

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Post by Didz »

Originally posted by elmo3
Didz

The biggest drawback I would see, were I programming UV, to 6 or 12 hour turns would be keeping track of all the planes that would now be in the air at the end of a turn. Right now all planes end the turn on the ground.
Good point! I must admit I hadn't twigged that that was the constraint that prevented a shorter turn option being included. I had been assumming that as the day was divided into several phases anyway it would be relatively simple to break it down into smaller turn cycles.

Your play must differ from mine significantly. I can't ever recall a TF going 20+ hexes in one day but to be honest I don't play with the hex grid on. Nor have I ever had an Allied TF "ram" Rabaul. It is rare they even come within it's LBA range except when I forget to set the "Do not react" order.
Thats the problem really. In order to stop them charging Rabaul you have to switch them to 'Do Not React'. Trouble is that then they don't react even when you want them to.

Worse case example I've witnessed so far was a plan to move my CV's to a location 5 hexes south of Gilli Gilli in order to cover a troop convoy.

FOW was off so I could see that there was nothing within 25 hexs of my CV's they had the ocean to themselves. Pressed the GO button and next thing I knew not only had my CV's taken a detour to a location North of the Louisaide Archipelgo and into LBA range of Rabaul but the IJN CV force which had begun the turn en-route between Truk and Rabaul at least 50 hexes away from my CV's had charged straight through and was now 5 hexes away. I'd had plenty of sighting reports during the turn but not a hope in hell of changing anything.

The result three enemy CV's damaged both mine sunk.

End of Game.

I don't agree that the game "expects" you to check sub torpedo loads though. Subs are set to computer control by default. The game "allows" you to check torpedo loads if you want to mess with sub tactics.
Not sure if it 'expects' you to check but it doesn't leave you much choice either. If you switch your subs to 'Human Control' which is the only way to get them to do what you want then the AI washes its hands of them and unless you check every turn to make sure they have fuel and torpedo's they will remain on station with empty fuel tanks and try and sink enemy shipping on the surface with their deck gun (not recommended in daylight).

So I carefully note everytime one of my subs fires a torpedo and then check it at the end of the turn and tell it to head for home if its out.
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Post by AlvinS »

Thats the problem really. In order to stop them charging Rabaul you have to switch them to 'Do Not React'.Trouble is that then they don't react even when you want them to.


Didz

By not react do you mean that your aircraft on the TF do not react as well as the TF itself?

The reason I am asking is that I set my Air Combat TF to "do not react", but my aircraft still fly missions against the opposing Air Combat TF.

When I had my Air Combat TF set to react they would charge off to satisfy a life long urge to see an enemy Air Combat TF up close, usually followed by a tour of the ocean floor.:rolleyes:

I have an Air Combat TF a few hexes off of Gili Gili to provide CAP for my AP's that are delivering forces there, until I can get an airfield in. The aircraft are also performing strikes against the opposing Air Combat TF. I keep changing positions off of Gili Gili to keep them guessing.
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Post by Didz »

Originally posted by AlvinS


By not react do you mean that your aircraft on the TF do not react as well as the TF itself?

The reason I am asking is that I set my Air Combat TF to "do not react", but my aircraft still fly missions against the opposing Air Combat TF.
I think its more complicated than that and I can't claim to have done the same in depth analysis as other people have on exactly how it works.

Certainly leaving 'React to Enemy' switched on tends to lead to a rapid movement into LBA range and an equally rapid trip to Davy Jones Locker for most CV's.

But switching it off doesn't seem to completely put the TF into dumb mode either. It will certainly launch planes at targets that come within strike range and I think I'm right in saying that it will make a limited move to close with a nearby enemy TF. My CV's sailing to Gilli Gilli certainly made an unauthorized detour round the north of the Louisades in order to close with the approaching Jap CV's even though they had 'React to Enemy' switched off. So I think its more of a limited reaction rather than none at all.


When I said that 'they don't react even when you want them too' I was particularly thinking of situations where the AI throws a completely unexpected event at you but your CV TF just ignores it.

Example: You have just ordered you TF to return to port when the major Jap invasion force you have been waiting to ambush steams into view. The TF spots it but just sails off into the sunset.

Or perhaps you have been monitoring the build up of a major invasion force around Rabaul and have your CV's massed 200 miles west of the New Hebrides ready to intercept. The coastwatcher confirms they have sailed and you head north predicting a landing on Guadacanal but next morning they are spotted heading for Gilli. Then you just get to sit and watch your CV's continue sailing in the wrong direction for the rest of the day.
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Post by Preacher »

The 'limited reaction' to which you refer is - I think - a direct result of commander ratings. I've not performed extensive tests, but I have experimented a bit - out of necessity - with TF commanders to try and get different (better) results. For instance, I had the opposite problem that you are having when playing the Coral Sea scenario as the Allies. My CV TF was posted near the slot in order to intercept any surface forces or CV forces that came near. After a day or two, the whole Jap carrier fleet appeared! However, my CVs did NOTHING. No attacks for 3 days! So, in my anger :) I set them to 'React to Enemy.' Still nothing. Steamed, I sailed to Lunga (dangerous I know), held a summary court martial, shot the CV TF commander, and brought Spruance on-board. Next turn, set back to "Do Not React...," he began hammering the Japs. Go figure.

I've experienced similar results in other situations.

The upshot: try fiddling with your TF commanders. Maybe that will make the difference.

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TF reaction times

Post by Didz »

In terms of optimum game turn length I was looking at the plot of Takagi's Carrier Strike force from the 3rd to 4th May 1942 and was interested in the extend to which that TF changed its course and the distance it was covering.

2400 4th It was north of Malaita heading SE.

by 0930 6th it had circumnavigated San Cristobal done a 180 and was heading NW south of Guadacanal

At 0930 6th it did a sudden 90 and began sailing south

12 hours later at 10:30 it did another 180 and began heading North

6 Hours later another 180 and it started heading south again.

At 7:36 7th it launch its first strike damaging the Neosho and sinking the Sims followed over the next few hours by a whole series of complicated course changes involving at least two 360 course changes.

12 hours later it was heading WNW.

At 10:57 7th it did a complete 180 again followed a few hours later by another change to sail North.

24:00 7th Another course change to WNW.

A few hours later a change to sail North again followed by a complete 180.

At 0810 8th it was sailing south when it launched its second strike sinking the Lexington. Only to be hit by the US strike 2 hours 47 minutes later whereupon it immediately changed course northwards and headed out of contact.



Two things strike me from this rough analysis.

1. Takagi's TF is reacting to enemy movements and sightings well within the 24 hour turn cycle allowed by UV.

2. Takagi's TF was not covering anywhere near the amount of ground/water that UV TF's seem to cover in a day.

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Post by Paul Vebber »

The minute you start worrying about giving helm orders to your task groups you have crossed teh line from operational to tactical.

A game at this level of war is simply not going to deal with being a Task force commander manuevering ships on a hour by hour basis.

But don;t feel bad, real navy Captains fall into this same trap and EVERY "real" oerational level wargame devolves into bickering about why the O-4 and O-5s did what they did "When I made PERFECTLY CLEAR I wanted to do xyz" or "let me see how you modeled the AN/QXY-3402W you obviously don't know anything about how it REALLY works...it would NEVER have allowed (insert bad die roll result here) to have happened..."


What some players want is a "tactical battle resolver add-on" that is just beyond the scope of what teh current game intended - a game for playing MANY MONTHS of teh campaign, not fighting out teh individual battles that result in gory detail.

ITs been the same on the ground war side where operational game players always gripe about results and want to fight the battels out using Steel Panthers or the like.

SOmeday we may see such a "composite" game, but UV isn't it and was never intended to be or portrayed as such!

That said we ARE looking to tweak and enhance the play at the operatioanl level and many excellent suggestions have been made to better focus at that level.

So keep up the comments, but just realize that if you want to fight out tactical carrier task force battels this just is not the game to do it.
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Post by Reiryc »

When I said that 'they don't react even when you want them too' I was particularly thinking of situations where the AI throws a completely unexpected event at you but your CV TF just ignores it.

Example: You have just ordered you TF to return to port when the major Jap invasion force you have been waiting to ambush steams into view. The TF spots it but just sails off into the sunset.
The problem that I see here is that youre expecting the computer to know what purpose it should have when returning to port. Ie: How does the computer know if you want the TF sent to port to stop and kill enemy task forces?

Add more to this potential problem, what if you wanted your TF to only hit that transport TF, but also a surface combat TF showed up? Now you want the air combat TF of yours to hit that transport TF, but not the surface combat TF.

So how does the computer know exactly what you want to do without being a complete system of micromanagement? Answer as I see it: it can't.

I empathize with where youre coming from, its frustrating to have dumb commanders (read AI), but given that this game is an operational level game, I think it unfair to criticize the game for doing what it 'should' do, namely provide operational control.

Does being an operational game mean that it can't have some form of tactical control mixed in? No. But just because it does have some, doesn't mean that it should have it in all areas. It only means that for gameplay or fun reasons, some tactical level controls were implemented. I dont however, feel that this means all areas must now have tactical control or that one should expect it in area B because we have it in area A.

I am of the opinion that being wishful for something is just fine. I think where I get bothered is when people are disappointed not due to game misrepresentation, but due to their own desires that were not created because of being misrepresented by the game. In other words, why come down on a game system that's doing what it advertised? Wish for something different sure, but not blame the system for doing what it should do according to its advertisements.

Anywho, matrix, I think I see another game potential with good sales! A tactical level carrier game similar to carriers at war. Im sure gary could do a great job with it.

Side note to Paul Vebber....

Could you get Marshal Ellis to poke his head into the Napoleonic Wars forum and toss us a bone? I'm dying for some info on that. =)

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Post by Sonny »

Originally posted by 1089
...... but the details of CAP management, transferring portions of HQs to various places to keep support levels up, organizing supply convoys, getting aviation support to where the planes are, and such other minutiae should be selectable to be handled by staff (computer). The AI knows how to handle this now, so it should not be hard to implement a toggle for computer control of those things...

kp
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No matter what, unless the AI thinks exactly like you do, you will not be satisfied with it handling almost any of these things. It is real easy now to say you want this but you will toggle this off the first time you end up short of supplies somewhere because the AI didn't know what you intended - those P39s you just transfered to GiliGili won't have support because last turn they were in Port Moresby when the AI has just unloaded the support troops.:)
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Post by 1089 »

Originally posted by Sonny


No matter what, unless the AI thinks exactly like you do, you will not be satisfied with it handling almost any of these things. It is real easy now to say you want this but you will toggle this off the first time you end up short of supplies somewhere because the AI didn't know what you intended - those P39s you just transfered to GiliGili won't have support because last turn they were in Port Moresby when the AI has just unloaded the support troops.:)
I don't expect the AI to be perfect, but I want the option of using it for most of the tedious tasks, but with the option of turning it off, so that I can tweak what it is doing should I need to.

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Post by Didz »

Originally posted by Paul Vebber


A game at this level of war is simply not going to deal with being a Task force commander manuevering ships on a hour by hour basis.

We keep coming back to the fact that UV is advertised and designed as an Operational level game.

As far as I am concerned that fact is not in dispute.

The only issue I have with UV is that for an operational game with strike ranges measured in 100 miles a ground scale of 30 miles per hex is too detailed to produce the degree of detachment I feel is necessary on the part of the player.

For instance I don't hear anybody complaining about the abstract land combat resolution in UV because the stike distance for LCU's is short enough that a 30 mile hex incorporates the entire battle area and so the player has no motivation to interfere.

Unfortunately, as demonstrated by Takagi's tactical manouvres in my previous post, tactical combat between two carrier forces can cover an area 300 to 400 miles across and at a ground scale of 30 miles per hex it does not encourage a player to have a feeling of detachment or the impression that the combat is abstract.

Which comes back to my original submission that regardless of the stated intentions of the designers the ultimate determining factor as to whether a game is Tactical rather than Strategic is the relationship between ground scale, turn duration and weapon strike range.

In PACWAR where the ground scale was 100 miles per hex carrier combat was by implication abstract and I never had a problem with it. But at 30 miles per hex I feel far to close to the action and its just too frustrating not to be actively involved.
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Post by Nikademus »

I have to agree with the moderator/developers here. A game of the scale of UV or the upcoming WitP cant really be any shorter than one day (which i think is fine in terms of the 'poll')

Though i'm as much of a detail freak as the next grognard i quickly came to realize that not being in total control of the carrier TF's (which is where i think this problem originates from) is realistic from the angle that the game presents. One already has incredible control over the tactical units in the game, including the carriers (by being able to assign missions to each squadron on the carrier, transfering them etc etc)

One has to admit, it is a hell of a lot better than Pacific War's one week block of turns where one had far less control over events, especially LBA. LBA ops really got hurt there....carriers were'nt so bad though not being able to control TF placement hurt even more badly than overenthusiastic reaction rules

Ironically, the smooth and detailed TF creation and movement routines contribute to this "illusion" that UV is a tactical based game of carrier warfare, thats actually a testiment to the game's solid design that it does so. But as many have already pointed out, this is 'not' a tactical carrier warfare game ala "CAW" or "Carrier Strike"

Trying to make UV any more detail orinented in terms of game turns would be like trying to make 12:o clock high, "bombing the Reich" into a game where the *allied* side can continually interupt along with the German player to continually adjust and change his "game plan" long after the bombers and fighters have been assigned their missions in response to the Axis movement and launch schedule of his responses to the day's raid, and those familiar with that game know how big and long 'that' worthy is.

Instead of fussing over the turn lengths, i would suggest that CV interaction routines may need a few minor tweaks here or there to prevent the typical, carriers react, close to close range and exchange strikes.

Mind you, just a 'minor' tweak. It may seem a bit monotonous at times and even frustrating for would be strategists, but one has to remember how history has often gone in terms of carrier warfare.

With the single (and partial) exception of Midway, that was how all the major carrier battles resolved.....Coral Sea, Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz, Philippine Sea. Each side spotted the other usually within hours of each other, exchanged strikes and in most cases withdrew to lick wounds.

Midway was a partial exception given some of the extraordinary sequence of events which transpired (though Hiryu was able to strike back) as well as having advanced Intell beforehand

P. Sea's results could also be a partial exeption due to the strength disperity, known such that the IJN commander purposely tried to exploit his range advantage to get in a first strike with a minimized fear of immediate retaliation.

Thats probably the best spot where a minor "tweak" could be added, esp for the IJN side. A more cautious reaction option to minimize risk by utilizing range as a weapon

To prevent abuse, this option should probably come tied with a penalty in the form of an increased chance to miss a target completely or paritally, and/or increased disruption-fatique if it does, the level and scale of which could be tied into the unit experience and leadership ratings.

Finally, as has already been suggested, one should experiment with TF placement to try to set up favorable opportunities. I've been doing this by turning off "react to enemy" to prevent the close range carrier strikes and have been able at times to set up long range strikes.

Course i dont have to bother now, my IJN carriers outnumber the battered AI 4 to 1. :)

just my 02 cents
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Post by Didz »

Originally posted by Nikademus


I have to agree with the moderator/developers here. A game of the scale of UV or the upcoming WitP cant really be any shorter than one day (which i think is fine in terms of the 'poll')

A strange conclusion considering that this battle has been done at least twice by successful games with turns shorter than one day.

One has to admit, it is a hell of a lot better than Pacific War's one week block of turns where one had far less control over events, especially LBA. LBA ops really got hurt there....carriers were'nt so bad though not being able to control TF placement hurt even more badly than overenthusiastic reaction rules
Personally, I still prefer PACWAR as an Operational level game simply because it has the scale to carry it off. I'm only hoping WiTP faithfully reproduces this without getting bogged down in trivial detail like pilots names.

Ironically, the smooth and detailed TF creation and movement routines contribute to this "illusion" that UV is a tactical based game of carrier warfare, thats actually a testiment to the game's solid design that it does so. But as many have already pointed out, this is 'not' a tactical carrier warfare game ala "CAW" or "Carrier Strike"
The illusion of UV being a tactical game is further reinforced by the fact that the map area covered barely extends beyond the tactical manouvring zone of the TF's involved in the battle itself.

Trying to make UV any more detail orinented in terms of game turns would be like trying to make 12:o clock high, "bombing the Reich" into a game where the *allied* side can continually interupt along with the German player to continually adjust and change his "game plan" long after the bombers and fighters have been assigned their missions in response to the Axis movement and launch schedule of his responses to the day's raid, and those familiar with that game know how big and long 'that' worthy is.
Interesting, my analogy for UV would be producing a game that barely covers the area of the Gettysburg national park and then calling it a ACW Operational level game by setting a 3 hour game turn and not allowing players to direct any of the Corps involved in battle whilst inisting that that they micro-manage the movement of the ammunition supply wagons
;)
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Operation Level

Post by mogami »

Hi, Operations are boring to some people, Just as in chess King and Pawn endings are boring to some people, In baseball no hitters are boring to some people, It's a matter of taste. The actual battles only represent/reveal how well the Operations planners have done. In UV you are the God of operations. Not a combatant.
Massing an Armada to invade Port Moresby with 3 divisions and then finding there are no stockpiles of supply or fuel to support it. The airgroups are all wore out and demoralized, and the ground combat units ready to fall apart from neglect, are operational matters. Which ships a airstrike attack within a TF are the concerns of the squadron leaders.
Making ASW TF of DD's that are not armed with depth charges and then wondering why enemy subs are so effective. Not understanding CAP and Mission commitment levels are the essence of Operations and wanting the computer to make these decisions for you. (The Level of CAP/SEARCH represents the TEMPO of Operations desired. Besides resting pilots it also has an impact on supply use. Aircraft wear and tear (non combat losses)


"Interesting, my analogy for UV would be producing a game that barely covers the area of the Gettysburg national park and then calling it a ACW Operational level game by setting a 3 hour game turn and not allowing players to direct any of the Corps involved in battle whilst insisting that that they micromanage the movement of the ammunition supply wagons "

Actually that is a rather good comparision. The Corps placement/arrival would be Operational their combat would belong to the Corps/division commanders (which you would select) and general posture (you told them at midnight to defend Little Round Top. ) The supply wagons would represent an operational concern (dividing the arty ammo type and amounts would after all have a major impact on the battle
"Gen Longstreet, sir you must go now or I will be unable to support your advance, I am running out of long range ammo"
(meanwhile the reserve ammo train is 3 miles away) You could have been the battery commander or the army commander in this case who would have made a difference, One is boring, but also the soul of war. It does not take a genius to win a battle with 3 CV versus 4. The genius is knowing who to place in command of the 3. Where to send them and when. (and having the 3 ready and able where needed when needed.)
Has anyone lost a VAdm or RAdm when the SC/PG they were on was sank by a sub? Using a VAdm to do a Lt/LtCmd job is operational (but poor) The pilots names are not really needed but they do add a nice touch without adding any extra work for the players. (They do contribute to people thinking tactically rather then Operationally) However if you actually pay attention to that level of detail things like "This group is composed of really low ranking low experience pilots flying bad aircraft perhaps I should move them to a safe base, rest them and then begin serious training while waiting for their aircraft type to upgrade" Now that is definitely an Operational decision and one that could have an impact on the future course of events. (months later desperate for aircraft you reach into your theater reserve. This group is now rested, trained, and equipped with first line planes. Their transfer to the critical area turns the tide.
Operations are the means by which tactics achieve strategic goals.
Saying at the outset "My long range strategic goal is the capture of Port Moresby and then fighting repeated nighttime surface battles at Lunga. More invaisons/battles will be lost in UV because supply/fuel ran out then will be lost because commanders make poor reactions but many people wish the computer decided how much and where their logistics went. While they drive aircraft carriers around the Coral Sea at max speed. With 100 percent fighter CAP and 100 percent fighter escort. The scale of the game is exactly what it is meant to be. It has a few frills that seem to confuse people to it's true nature.
It is a bean counter game. (the Pacific was a bean counter war)
You really don't want the computer counting your beans. (puts you out of your real job) Operations are boring to some people, but they are the most important level in war. The settings reflect what the operatinal commander can direct tactics to his commanders (set aircraft to port attack during operations directed against ports but change to airfields for operations against enemy air assets) This is not micro managing. Your TF leaders have no idea what your operations are meant to achive.
Do you want them picking targets?
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Post by Dunedain »

Having 24 hour length turns is about as short as you can have it
and still be realistic at this scale.

Now, if the game were more on a tactical or grand tactical scale,
then you could realistically have shorter length turns. Something
like Action Stations, for example.
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