Comparison with The Operational Art of War III

[fredericklai]

I'm interested in Advanced Tactics because players can design their own WWII scenarios. I own "The Operational Art of War III" which also allows players to design their own WWII scenarios. What are the main differences between these two games? Is it worthwhile to purchase "Advanced Tactics" for owners of "The Operational Art of War III"?

[Grell]

The Operational Art of War III is far better than this game. I haven't tried to make scenarios in Advanced Tactics but I do believe TOAW3 is a better game by far.

Regards,

Grell

[kender79]

TOAW III is the third version.
It is complex and very good.
BUT, it has some limitations (limited event script, 2 player max, ...), and the team has changed

AT is a new game, with somes good concept and a developer team ready to improve it (see the number of patch).
So it miss a good community (who is forming) and lots of little (big?) things.

SO I'm hoping for futur version of BOTH.

PS : AT is for me between TOAW and HOI (of Paradox).

[bwheatley]

I think while TOAW is one of my favorite franchises that AT will become one of my favorite franchises as well. With TOAW you can't manage production down to the indivual rifleman. I agree with kender that this game is between TOAW and HOI in scope. I'm really digging this game and i think it has a viable future next to TOAW (another matrix property). Just another example of Matrix finding war game developers to bring on board with their games that make it fun to keep being a wargamer .

[Widell]

ORIGINAL: Grell
The Operational Art of War III is far better than this game. I haven't tried to make scenarios in Advanced Tactics but I do believe TOAW3 is a better game by far.

Well, see that's where you are missing out on the area where AT is far beyond TOAW. That being said, TOAW has been on my computers since TOAW I and is one of my, if not the, all time favourites. It all depends on what you are after when you compare the two, but here's my conclusions so far:

• Editor is superior in AT.
• Amount of scenarios is huge for TOAW. Number of scenarios are growing and they are more innovative for AT. My bet is that unless TOAW gets a new editor out, AT will have more and/or "better" scenarios mid to long term.
• Flexible command structure for AT is something I have always missed with TOAW.
• Spontaneously, haven't really put it to the test, I'd say AT have a naval component that is much less abstracted versus TOAW.
• AT has explore and production modes which is not, and have never been, part of the TOAW scope.
• Personally I think the combat resolution in TOAW feels "better". I have no data or tests to back this up, so I may be completely out of whack on that statement, so it's mainly based on how results are presented at the time of resolution.

To sum things up, TOAW is much more mature since it has been around since Stonehenge was on the real estate market. AT is more flexible in terms of what scenarios can be created, but it is still missing the multitude of scenarios possible as well as the proper TOE's to go with it. However, have a look in the Mods and Scenarios forum and you'll find that this difference will even out over time.

So, which is the "best" game? For me they are different enough to justify owning both (which I, needless to say, do). TOAW has the more historic touch to it if you prefer that. AT has a huge potential and I think at least some of the TOAW scenario designers are working on AT as well simply because the editor is a charm compared to TOAW. I think the best comparison between the two can be done by those who have played FitE in TOAW and its counterpart in AT, but I have yet to see such comparison.

If you have the money, go for both, TOAW for its solid base of scenarios, and AT because of being a rising star with a huge potential.

EDIT: Agree with the two previous posters reg the scope of AT being between TOAW and HOI. Great observation!

[jjdenver]

ORIGINAL: Grell

The Operational Art of War III is far better than this game. I haven't tried to make scenarios in Advanced Tactics but I do believe TOAW3 is a better game by far.

Regards,

Grell

Well definitely everyone is entitled to an opinion and Grell has one. But I don't see any reasons to back it up honestly. I own both games and feel that AT is a far better game. Here are my reasons:
1) Better coordination of supply/air/ground/naval in a single game.
2) Great combined arms mechanics
3) Nice production model
4) Ability to organize detailed TO&E
5) Great supply model
6) I love the AT scenario pool and it has a great editor from what I've seen
7) I love the C&C and experience systems in AT

Anyway - I'm certainly not downing TOAW III. I've played it a lot and it's a great game too - but I certainly prefer AT.

[Moltke71]

Once again, apples and oranges.  TOAW is committed only to an operational level of warfare where eliminating the enemy within a defined time range is the primary goal.  AT is low on the tactical side but has a strategic side lacling in TOAW.  Victory is usuually a function of capturing cities. 
 
For hardcore historical accuracy on an operational level, TOAW is the game.  AT takes the prize for flexiblity and ease of play including strategic aspects.

[Captain Cruft]

One thing to consider ...

How hard would it be to make AT into a game that is in fact better than TOAW? From where I'm sitting not too hard at all. It's mostly a matter of adding a few "unit-centric" features i.e. some ability to fix the OOB and ToEs. The only problem is Vic doesn't want to do it

On the other hand, adding the stuff that AT already does better (e.g. production, no slot limits) to TOAW III would be decidedly non-trivial and basically mean a complete re-write.

[JAMiAM]

Jim sums it up rather succinctly.

As a co-developer of TOAW III, I'll just say this...any gamer that does not have both in his collection is doing himself a great disservice.

[all5n]

I am having the time of my life playing AT via PBEM.
 
I am in 6 games and am exited to the point of nervous every time i get to play a turn.
 
Its been a while since I played a game that i liked so much.
 
The pre-made scenarios are great (European Diplomacy, 9 players!), but the "Empire" style PBEM games are also a BLAST i am finding.
 
It seems there is a faction of the gamer community that gauges a game by its "historical accuracy" and anything that doesnt fit their pre-conceived notion of unit makeup and command structure is automatically not a good game.  I disagree with this assessment.

[rickier65]

I saw the post and was expecting to write a long reply since both are favorites of mine.

But after reading Widell's response above, I dont think I can add much.

(I do have to disagree with one of poster who indicated that detailed TO&E's were a good feature - that's probably the one weakness I see - I tend to agree more with Captain Cruft here).

The editor in AT is so nice to use (and them map builder feature is ABSOLUTELY GREAT).

I think AT will become a classic.


Rick

[Joshuatree]

"TO&E" ??
 
Forgive-me-for-asking-a-stupid-question, but what is TO&E?
 
 

[Grell]

Just my opinion fella's.

Regards,

Grell

[Moltke71]

ORIGINAL: Joshuatree

"TO&E" ??

Forgive-me-for-asking-a-stupid-question, but what is TO&E?

Table of Organization and Equipment.

[IRONCROM]

Well I've owned 3 of the TOAW's and have logged in plenty of play time.
 
 For me I would say that AT rates higher on fun factor. Toaw is a real in the trenches war game.
AT has a better strategic game. I feel like I'm fighting a war where I have god like control over every aspect of the war. In TOAW I'm fighting a battle where I have to do the best I can within the very strict limits the scenario designer has given me.
 
IMHO

[Widell]

Well fredericklai, I hope you got answers to your questions? [;)] Life is simple if you have an endless supply of time time and expendable money!

ORIGINAL:  Rick
(I do have to disagree with one of poster who indicated that detailed TO&E's were a good feature - that's probably the one weakness I see - I tend to agree more with Captain Cruft here).

Ah, but looking at what the Captain himself is working on in his grog scenario. If he gets that working, he goes into my book of greater beings for sure! Never the less, I can agree that TOAW is more developed and has a huge amount of equipment in the database, and now that you can have unique db's for each scenario without having to maintain copies etc, that's a big step forward. I guess that AT will see one or more "standard" databases being developed by the community over the next couple of months, and then it is good enough for me. Right now, I am a little allergic to the generic units for the WWII scenarios although they are fine for the exploration maps I guess.

ORIGINAL:  Rick
The editor in AT is so nice to use (and them map builder feature is ABSOLUTELY GREAT).

Could not agree more! This is the major, major area where AT is better compared to TOAW, regardless of what type of game you prefer (strategic, tactical, operational, historical, fictional).

ORIGINAL:  Rick
I think AT will become a classic.

Agree here as well, and looking at the quality of some of the scenarios that has been published since the release of the game, the future looks bright!

ORIGINAL:  Grell
Just my opinion fella's.

 Regards,

 Grell

Not a problem Grell, I only wanted to point out that regardless of game play and whether you prefer the one game above the other, the editor in AT is simply so much better compared to TOAW (and then we haven't even touched on BioEd yet.....). [:)]

[fredericklai]

Thank you for all the reponses.  I've got a clearer picture of the game.
 
There is another question I would like to raise.  I don't own AT and thus have little idea of what this game looks like.  However, after seeing one screenshot on which I can see the whole Chinese Eastern coast and Japan, I wonder players can design scenarios at strategic level.  In TOAW3, a scenario of this scale would require hundreds or even thousands of counters which is impossible to play.  So, am I right to say that one difference between these 2 games is that TA is a strategic wargame and TOAW is an operational wargame?  If so, what is the maximum distance a hex can represent in TA? (If I remember correctly, in TOAW, a hex can only represent a distance between 5 km to 20 km)

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: fredericklai

Thank you for all the reponses.  I've got a clearer picture of the game.

There is another question I would like to raise.  I don't own AT and thus have little idea of what this game looks like.  However, after seeing one screenshot on which I can see the whole Chinese Eastern coast and Japan, I wonder players can design scenarios at strategic level.  In TOAW3, a scenario of this scale would require hundreds or even thousands of counters which is impossible to play.  So, am I right to say that one difference between these 2 games is that TA is a strategic wargame and TOAW is an operational wargame?  If so, what is the maximum distance a hex can represent in TA? (If I remember correctly, in TOAW, a hex can only represent a distance between 5 km to 20 km)

Well, actually I'm not sure there is an upper limit. In fact the way AT is designed, you dont explicitly give hexes a distance scale, rather the scale of the hexes is implied though the use of movement costs and time. In AT editor, you set how much it costs subFormation to move across a hex. You also set how long each turn is, from 1 day to 1 month (I actually set it up once for 1 turn equal 1 yr, just for fun.). So knowing So map scale is a function of those items.

You can have maps scaled from the operational level, to the grand strategic scale. There is a N. Africa scenario and and Ardennes scenario that come with the game, and user made scenarios that cover Crete, Tunisia and Salerno (at the low end of the range scale). Their are nmumerous others (I suppose at the upper end there is a Star Trek mod by Bulldog that scales in terms of light years for each hex I suppose.


Rick

[Joshuatree]

@ Bismarck,

Thank you.

ORIGINAL: Bismarck

ORIGINAL: Joshuatree

"TO&E" ??

Forgive-me-for-asking-a-stupid-question, but what is TO&E?

Table of Organization and Equipment.

[DeadInThrench]

Ug.... what the heck. I do not have AT yet (have played a lot of PT though) but have had TOAW3 for like 6 months and am quite familiar with it so... yeah... what the heck... may as well make my 'not necessarily blatantly positive comments'. <g>

As far as TOAW3 is concerned... great overall concept... and an incredible wealth of released and user developed scenarios... and a great player community both here and on GameSquad but..... otherwise... IMO.... a game that does not live up to it's promise.

Maybe I am spoiled with Gary Grigsby games but... in TOAW.... the more I get into the game... invariably I run into game systems that are seriously flawed, absent, or (in the case of the 'ants blocking retreats' problem) just plain silly.

For instance... in Grigsby's War In Russia.... unit effectiveness is more or less PROFICIENCY TIMES READINESS.... while in TOAW.... it is PROFICIENCY PLUS READINESS.

What???? Now, it may not be obvious why the TOAW formula is off the mark but... at least IMO... it most certainly is.

Now..... this by itself does not make a huge impact on how the scenarios play out but..... there are LOTS of other things along these lines and when I play a scenario I start wondering exactly how far from historicity I am deviating.

Then, there is the 'ants blocking retreats' problem..... TOAW allows retreats into enemy controlled hexes.. but allows for many smaller units, as well as breaking down larger units into smaller ones and.... you end up using these smaller units (ants) to completely surround enemy units (so they can't retreat) and.... IMO.... this just gets to be silly.

Now... let me say here that I would still recommend purchasing TOAW3 for anyone having an interest in this period.... if nothing else just bringing up the over 200 scenarios and... looking at them. It is worth it just for that!

But, as far as how it plays out.... well, right now I am trying a number of smaller scenarios from different eras to see if I can still enjoy playing the game... or not.

As far as AT is concerned... I haven't purchased it yet but will because I feel at the very least I owe Vic for the enjoyment I have gotten out of PT. But, right now... I got some RL things to deal with... expect to move in a couple of months and.... right now cannot get sucked into AT <g>.

Otherwise.... I see AT/PT more as an 'ahistorical war/strategy' game. In other words, where you may get some historical 'flavor', it is more like Tactics II or Empire... in other words, more a war/strategy game and less of a historical simulation.

So, you get less historicity in AT/PT but..... you are probably gonna enjoy playing the game more than with TOAW (any 5 or more player AT games going on out there??).

Still.... if I had to recommend one vs the other... I would probably recommend AT, with the reason being, Vic, the AT author, is supporting AT while TOAW is long removed from anything along those lines. From my recent experience... in practice.... this makes all the difference in the world as to games that are available.

Whatever..... again.... just thought I'd get my 'not necessarily blatantly positive' comments in <g>.

DiT