Newbie Q - Tutorial 4

[barniewhittle]

Hi All - I have dabbled with Harpoon over the years from H2 through H3 and now (as I can't get lok / kee codes for my new PC) H3ANW. I like the sharper presentation of ANW but am finding more puzzling behaviour than I expected as I refresh the tutorials. I am using the HUD tutorials under 3.9. So here's the first of what might become an occasional series of questions:

The manual states : We are going to engage the last air threat as a group. Although
it doesn’t seem so, the third incoming air threat is actually a
group of two aircraft. Make sure that the Puller is selected. When
the aircraft come within range, click the attack toolbar button
and then drag-select the incoming air group. Once again the
Weapon Allocation dialog window will be displayed, but you
will notice that this time there are two Bears listed in the enemy
unit section of the screen. You will see that the staff has already
allocated an SM-1 to each. Go ahead and click oK. The missiles
should now launch and each of the allocated missiles will track
its assigned target.

When I group select the 2 targets they appear bottom left in the menu but missiles are only allocated to one of the 2. I manually add some missiles against the other target so both have weapons allocated but when I click Ok the Puller only attacks one of the 2. Does group attack not work?

Secondly the Puller does not automatically attack the Beagle which just circles overhead like a harmless seagull. Why does the Puller not id it as hostile and attack? How are targets identified as hostile?

Grateful for you help... its a great game, but a little frustrating to learn when you don't see the advertised behaviour......

BW

[barniewhittle]

.... PS - multiple select seems to work fine for attacking the 2 ships that followed .. dealt with both simultaneously really well...  why not the aircraft??

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: b whittle

The manual states : We are going to engage the last air threat as a group. Although
it doesn’t seem so, the third incoming air threat is actually a
group of two aircraft. Make sure that the Puller is selected. When
the aircraft come within range, click the attack toolbar button
and then drag-select the incoming air group. Once again the
Weapon Allocation dialog window will be displayed, but you
will notice that this time there are two Bears listed in the enemy
unit section of the screen. You will see that the staff has already
allocated an SM-1 to each. Go ahead and click oK. The missiles
should now launch and each of the allocated missiles will track
its assigned target.

I'll have to ask for forgiveness here, as I've modified the original Tutorial and the manual instructions may not apply to the HUD3 scenarios. In Tutorial IV, I have swapped out the original Bear F ASW patrol aircraft for Il-28 Beagle medium bombers.

I undertook the change to allow for the Puller to engage the aircraft automatically, the Beagles are armed with iron bombs, whereas the Bear F's were carrying no ASuW weapons and would not be seen as a threat by the Puller and hence not engaged. Another issue arising from the aircraft change was idiot me adding two Beagles with differing loadouts. So engaging the "group" of aircraft is out of the question. It's not the game or not meeting the advertised performance, it's simply a matter of an error while I was rebuilding and modifying the original H2 scenario to H3ANW 3.9 standard.

ORIGINAL: b whittle
When I group select the 2 targets they appear bottom left in the menu but missiles are only allocated to one of the 2. I manually add some missiles against the other target so both have weapons allocated but when I click Ok the Puller only attacks one of the 2. Does group attack not work?

I've just modified the scen and reinstated the group of two aircraft. When the aircraft are grouped and I group select them for attack, the first target is assigned 2 missiles. I remove one and manually assign it to the second Bogey. Having reinstated the group of aircraft the Tutorial plays as expected and each target is assigned a missile a piece.

ORIGINAL: b whittle
Secondly the Puller does not automatically attack the Beagle which just circles overhead like a harmless seagull. Why does the Puller not id it as hostile and attack? How are targets identified as hostile?

Grateful for you help... its a great game, but a little frustrating to learn when you don't see the advertised behaviour......

BW

I didn't have the issue with Puller not engaging, both of the first two single attackers were visually ID'ed confirmed as hostile without my intervention and engaged successfully with a combination of 75mm gunfire and SM1 missiles.

Again apologies for the error in the scenario, I'll make a replacement version available shortly along with all of the HUD3 scenarios further modified and corrected from those that are available in the Patch. Also thanks for trying the HUD3 out and helping kill another bug/error and please don't blame the game itself. I've come to realise that many of the issues reported with the game are simple mistakes like this one rather than the engine itself being at fault.

Cheers

Darren

[barniewhittle]

Hi - thanks for the feedback - really prompt and helpful. I tried the standard db tutorial and as you say the Puller does not engage the Bears. But going back to the HUD version the Puller does not imediately engage the Beagle, but lets it get real close and circle. The Beagle then drops a torpedo and the Puller engages and destroys the Beagle. Trouble is the torp then sinks the Puller!, which makes the rest of the tutorial a bit difficult to work through [;)]. I would have thought the Puller ought to engage the Beagle earlier - I guess the programme only sees it as hostile once it attacks, even though it is 'Bad Guys' and painted red. Is there any explanation of how the game identifies hostiles? The manual says to watch the automatic attack against the first target... which I did and got sunk [;)]

You suggest the drag and click group attack only works against groups, which means they have to have the same loadouts I guess, yet I can get the Puller to attack the Oska and skunk ships well with this method - and I assume they are not groups.... still a little confused.

PS - just replayed the standard db tut 4 with difficulty at default rather than average (as manual says) and you get different behaviour - targets are yellow then ided, turn red and both Bears are automatically attacked and killed - seems more in line with tutorial intent.

PPS - there's a lot to learn here - a little fascinating as well as frustrating.

[Bucks]

ORIGINAL: b whittle

You suggest the drag and click group attack only works against groups, which means they have to have the same loadouts I guess, yet I can get the Puller to attack the Oska and skunk ships well with this method - and I assume they are not groups.... still a little confused.

Aircraft require identical loadouts so they can be grouped. On the other hand, ships of all types can be grouped to create formations at any time. Different platforms with differing behaviour.

Cheers

Darren

[Blacklight]

After several tests of this scenario, I can confirm that I cannot get the Puller to automatically attack the first aircraft.  It just flies right over the Puller and circles as stated above.  The only way I was able to get this plane was to manually shoot it down. Weapons Free is turned on and I have made absolute sure that the Puller passes within range of the aircraft.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[barniewhittle]

Many thanks to Bucks and VCDH for their helpful answers[:)], but I still have problems with this tutorial which emphasise to me some fundamental problems with how ANW is taught to newcomers.  I really like H3 - this is the 3rd time I've paid for the game, having had the 360 and Spearsoft versions, but I have always had problems getting much beyond the tutorial and that issue remains with ANW.  If you want to retain customers the tutorials need to be improved to stop them being a 'barrier to entry', by which I mean I find myself spending too much time puzzling over why the game doesn't do 'what it says on the tin'.  There have been many times I have felt like throwing in the towel for issues which I suspect are easily resolved.
 
As another example, I worked through VCDH's advice with Tut 4, trying to declare the incoming Bears as hostile with the H key.  Nothing happened.  The Bears were already red icons and they flew harmlessly by with no automatic attack either way. This was with difficulty set to Average as defined in the tutorial preamble.  I've spent some hours trying different difficulty settings, which produce behaviour more like VCDH describes - on default the target is yellow, becomes red and declared hostile on pressing H and is eventually engaged, but only with close in weapons.  I don't understand why they are not engaged at greater range using missiles.  But either way the tutorial is broken as you don't get the described behaviour at Average difficulty.
 
Another example - the whole process of identification VCDH describes seems fundamental but isn't explained in the tutorial or anywhere else I can easily find - so you have to work it out by trial and error.
 
Another example (from Air Ops Tutorial) - the mysterious air ops button which has multiple uses (and sadly it won't empty my dishwasher, though maybe someone could add that functionality in 3.10 [;)]) that are not fully explained - the manual at 5.1 refers you on to 10.3.3.5 which says very little - there is more in the hard copy 360 manual, though not much more.  This really needs to be explained better.
 
Can I make some suggestions to improve the experience for newcomers?  This is a great game [:)][:)], I love it [8D], but am so frustrated [&:][:(][&:] at the problems with learning how to use it.  I suggest:
 
1.  That a tutorial database containing only the tutorials is put together and the tutorials deleted from all other Dbs. Each db seems to have its own versions of the tutorials (hence my confusion that started this thread by using the HUD db). The poor newcomer has first to decide which database / tutorial set to use.  Using the wrong one may give strange behaviour and there is no advice up front in the tutorial /manual as which to use. Take away the choice by only have one dedicated set of tutorials.
 
2.  Delete the tutorial info that is in the game pull down menu as I doubt with modern PCs and pdfs etc that it is still needed and it just adds further choice and confusion and a problem of aligning content with the manual.
 
3.  Improve the tutorials so they do exactly what the manual says (accepting that some complex engagements cannot be repeated exactly, but that can be explained - the fundamentals ought to work).
 
4.  Maybe to do 3 you need a sticky allowing folk to post their difficulties with the tutorials.
 
5.  Improve the manual to explain better some of the fundamentals - uses of Air Ops button (maybe a table in an annex that lists and explains its functions) and how targets are IDd etc...
 
 
Sorry to sound negative [:(], but my frustrations with the tutorial have almost turned me off the game and a bit of effort improving the upfront infomation would help avoid that.  It is really important to give newcomers a smooth and enjoyable early experience, not the frustrations I have found.
 
Kind regards
 
BW

[Shemar]

ORIGINAL: b whittle

5.  Improve the manual to explain better some of the fundamentals - uses of Air Ops button (maybe a table in an annex that lists and explains its functions) and how targets are IDd etc...

I have to second this. I love the game and I want to see it succeed, but the game manual is anything but. I read it cover to cover and inside my head I was screaming "Stop teaching me about modern warfare and just tell me how the game works". Let's face it, most people that will pick up the game already know the fundamentals of modern warfare. There is way too much time wasted on generic warfare doctrine and too little time in actually explaining the game. Furthermore, the two are so intermingled that it is almost impossible to find any useful information without reading the whole thing.

I think as far as documentation goes, a 10-20 page manual is needed that is free of doctrine and generic warfare knowledge and just concentartes of the controls and keys of the game.

As an example, take formations and formation air patrols. I wish the manual would just tell me what everything on my screen means and does, instead of telling me how I should run my fleet or how real world navies run their fleets. Clear instructions on how to set up patrols and what each patrol does in the context of the game and not why a real fleet would use this patrol.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[Shemar]

That sounds like a good idea VCDH. Especially the part where a name is a good description of what the weapon/platform actually does. That should minimize the need to be searching through the database all the time for new players.

I assume a series of tutorials to take advantage of that DB will also be included?

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[Shemar]

ORIGINAL: VCDH

Too much to do and not enough people to do it

Pretty much a universal constant that, but not everybody understands it.

I had no problem learning the game from the existing tutorials it looks like a good sequence to me. If I were to change anything it would be to make sure I focus more on manual control of the units and less on expecting the AI to help me or on missions, maybe provide a full reference of relevant controls at the end of each lesson, even if the tutorial steps did not get to use everything.

And as I said above, I would skip any effort to teach tactics to a new player and focus on teaching them how to use the game to control their units.

[Bucks]

I'd like to make a few comments about the tutorials and changes the game has undergone since these Tutes were originally designed. 14 years ago the tutorial set you see before you first came into being. In the case of the HUD3 I have attempted to update and "repair" the Tutorials so they function using the HUD3. Now I am in some ways restrained by the text that accompanies each tutorial, explaining what the player is meant to be learning about.

I had attempted to edit the text once before with undesirable results and so the HUD3 Tutorial IV contains Beagle bombers, and not Bear F's, the text still refers to the Bears. Now I can see where this will cause a complete newcomer an issue and maybe cause confusion when they don't engage, waiting for the Bears to appear.

There's also a need to possibly explain the "nuts and bolts" a little more rather than a slavish tying of everything to USN doctrine. Also with changes in the way the game engine handles situations after years of development means the Tutorial descriptions require a degree of editing to reflect the way the described situations are now handled in Harpoon 3 ANW and not Harpoon 2 the version of the game they were written for.

I'm taking a look at making some edits to the tutorial description for Tute IV. If I can make it through the painful process of editing the RES file format that ANW uses, I'll get the file posted and you guys can try out the Tutorial again following the new instructions.

I don't believe this is a major issue. I believe it's simply a case of development oustripping the team of AGSI staff and community voluteers' ability to update all aspects of the game. From where I stand, it doesn't seem like the game itself doesn't work, just that if the new player follows the instructions to the letter it may have worked with Harpoon 2, but it ain't going to wash with H3ANW.

Do users, especially our new members feel that if the description reflected the observed behaviour in the game that the current Tutorials are capable of fulfilling the task of educating you in the basics of modern tactical naval warfare? This is the first question we should be asking ourselves. As I stated I'll give the editing job a try now and once I'm happy it looks right we can all try out Tutorial IV again following some instructions that make more sense.

Thanks in advance

Darren Buckley

[barniewhittle]

Hi all - I'm not suggesting a root and branch rewrite of the tutorials, just some amendments of the descriptions in the manual to align them accurately with what happens in the game and some amplification in areas where the explanation is sparse (eg Air Ops button).  I think the tutorial would teach the basic game well with these tweaks.
 
But I also very much like the idea of a new players DB - much the same as I was suggesting for a tutorial DB.  I suggest the following approach - revise the tutorial text so they 'match' the game behaviour, place in new players DB, delete all other tutorials, then - as time permits - slowly add further 'advanced tutorial' scenarios that can bring out the deeper aspects.
 
I agree the comments that the USN doctrine should be separated out more clearly.
 
I also feel there should be some more detail in the manual on the game mechanics 'under the bonnet' - the sort of stuff that gets revealed occasionally in forum posts.
 
I suspect the expert old hands find it hard to understand what the newcomer can't see - which is why I feel you need some process for newbies to explain the bits they find difficult and then (the important bit) improve the tutorials / manual to ease the way for others.
 
I'll give another example - Tutorial 6 Air Ops - all worked great, enjoying the game and the way it reflects real life, until I try to change the F16 loadouts.  Nothing happened.  Repeated process several times - still nothing changed.  It was only because I vaguely remembered a forum discussion somewhere that said something about logistics that I thought to unclick 'air logistics' restarted the tutorial and all was fine.  The tutorial text should say to ensure 'air logistics' is unchecked - simple small change makes all the difference....
 
This is a really great game.  Investment in making the newcomers experience easier would I suggest be a very wise investment in the future of H3.
 
Thanks for listening
 
BW

[barniewhittle]

.. and here we go again.  Feeling pleased I had diagnosed the air ops problem, and having spent too much time on the forum, I fire up the game continue with Tutorial 6, launch the Hornet at the ship to watch it launch its stand off weapon, only to find it fly to within visual range and get shot down!!
 
What is this trying to teach me other than how to handle my emotions??  Have I done something wrong, is the tutorial text wrong, is the game wrong.... am I going mad?
 
More seriously, now the frustration is subsiding, what's going on or not here??
 
 

[Bucks]

Try this out.

Once you've launched the relevant aircraft and used the F6 key to order it to intercept the LST, make sure the Hornet is selected and the hit the (~) key - weapons free and the Tutorial should function as described. Repeat this process for each of the aircraft types.

Cheers

Darren

[barniewhittle]

Daren
         Thanks for the prompt reply.  Tried that as suggested but it makes no difference for me.  Not sure how the ~ key works as the prefs were already set wpns free and using the ~ seems to make no difference to them.  Does ~ change the global prefs or just for the selected aircraft and how do you know for a specific ac if it is free or tight?
 
I did get the right behaviour (as advertised by the tutorial) if I use the attack button, F1.  Hornet approaches a few miles and fires Harpoon from long distance.  I note in the unit status box the task is 'intercept target' for the attack button, but 'prosecute target' when the air ops button is used.  Intercept seems to generate an attack, while prosecute doesn't.  Seems wrong way round.
 
Either way the tutorial text does not match the game behaviour and leaves me confused and frustrated.
 
I have come within a whisker today of just packing it all in.  My life is too short to spend hours with trial and error to work out how this game is supposed to work.

[Shemar]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

Do users, especially our new members feel that if the description reflected the observed behaviour in the game that the current Tutorials are capable of fulfilling the task of educating you in the basics of modern tactical naval warfare? This is the first question we should be asking ourselves. As I stated I'll give the editing job a try now and once I'm happy it looks right we can all try out Tutorial IV again following some instructions that make more sense.

I had no problem with the tutorials (in the ODB) when I was learning the game, but... I was aware that they were outdated and I was able to easily shrug off any inconsistencies between the tutorial text and what was going on on my screen.

[TonyE]

ORIGINAL: Bucks

I had attempted to edit the text once before with undesirable results and so the HUD3 Tutorial IV contains Beagle bombers, and not Bear F's, the text still refers to the Bears. Now I can see where this will cause a complete newcomer an issue and maybe cause confusion when they don't engage, waiting for the Bears to appear.

I'm taking a look at making some edits to the tutorial description for Tute IV. If I can make it through the painful process of editing the RES file format that ANW uses, I'll get the file posted and you guys can try out the Tutorial again following the new instructions.

Hey Darren, you do know I have a basic but very functional res file editor right? Just let me know what kind of improvements you need to make editing the orders easier.

http://harpgamer.com/harpforum/index.ph ... howfile=20