Regarding Naval Bombardment

[Sheytan]

Hi All,

Question for you, I have been bombing and shelling the big IJ base in the Marshalls. My bombing missions seem to generate expected results, however I also have a bombardment TF made up of six battleships and escorts, ive been seeing casuality results ranging from 100-200 to over 5000! However when I note the troop strength on the atoll, its flucuates widely. For example, I see a total enemy strength of 44000, then after the bombardment, which says ive caused 5000 losses, I look and it says 33000 enemy strength, however! the next turn its 43000.

Are my naval bombardment missions really having a big impact? or is what im seeing misinformation? Also the target is a atoll, which has 11 enemy units, according to my intel, and its been cut off from supply for over a month, I have total air and naval control of the area, no enemy reinforcements are getting in, or supply, I have 3 divisions, 2 marine, one army, and a slew of assorted support units, its 7/42, would it be possible to take the atoll with this force? In addition its been bombed pretty much nonstop for a month as well, port and airfield are trashed.

[Feinder]

Yes, your bombardments are having a large effect.
 
The higher the detection level of the enemy base, the more effective your bombardment.  To maximize the detection level, use real recon type aircraft (like F4 or F5).
 
Those 5000 casualties that you see, are largely disablements, not kills.  However, you -are- doing a lot of damage (about 30% of the casualties can be kills).
 
Generally, your recon estimate of an enemy troop strength, will be off by about 50 - 80%.  It's the troop estimate that is more off, than the estimate of casuaties.  IF you get anything from SigInt, it's usually fairly close.
 
-F-

[rockmedic109]

Being cut off from supplies is not the same as being out of supply.  Pound them some more {a month or so}. 
 
Naval bombardment and bombing the port will reduce the CD guns.  This is crucial.  You do not want to succeed but loose too many APs.
 
Three Divisions should be more than enough but I believe in peace through superior firepower and you cannot be much more superior than when the enemy is totally out of supply and has to throw rocks at your invasion force. 
 
Most of the casulties will be disablements.  Those will be back in a few days. 
 
You have Eniwetok.  Put a Recon squadron there and start daily recon flights over the target.  You will get far better intel. 
 

[Sheytan]

Thanks for the info, I am running intense recon but ive only cats to do it with, dont wish to use my bombers for that mission, as it will reduce the tempo of ops against the target. Currently, ive 4 cat squadrons doing nothing but recon on the atoll, range reduced, and its not the target, so im getting the random unit spotted in the process.

How long would one normally prep to attack a target like this with a invasion? And would 3 divisons be enough to take it against the 11 unit/40k ish garrison?

[Sheytan]

Only dedicated recon unit I have is in India, and ive yet to amass enough of the new frames to convert the dutch squadrons. I need the unit in India to recon targets in Burma as im about to pocket the IJ invasion force in Malaya. At any rate heres to hoping the cat squadrons can get the job done! I think 3 divisions is about all I can mass currently.

[Feinder]

Currently, ive 4 cat squadrons doing nothing but recon on the atoll, range reduced, and its not the target, so im getting the random unit spotted in the process.

1.  Using LB/TB/Pat as recon = +1 DL per plane.  Using RC as recon = +4 DL per plane.  If you're lacking in l reconds, use multiple Pat/LB squadrons from multiple bases.  I won't go into all the math, but generally the efforts of 1 recon squadron is eqivilent to about 6 patrol squadrons.  Recons and good pilots not withstanding, you're still going to get very wildly varied results.  Best to write it down, and see where the consistency is.  Again, SigInt is your friend.

2.  I'd say it depends on whether your game is PBEM or AI whether 3x Divs is enough.  If it's the AI = yes probably.  If it's PBEM = not nearly.

If it's AI, Kwaj is the main command base for Japan's CentPac, so you're going to see a fair number of units there, but they'll be SNLFs and NavGds.  Given that you've completely isolated the base, 3x Divs is probably enough.

If it's PBEM, your opponent probably has a complete defense.  A CD unit to wreck your invasion.  Flak unit(s) for air defense.  The existing BF + probably an AV regiment.   Certainly an HQ.  IF it's Kwaj, at least a reinforced Bde, more likely a division. Probably more.

Better to illustrate doing the math backwards...

If it's PBEM, consider that he probably has 9x forts. That's 3x denfense. He's been there for a while, thats another 2x defense.

So with one division at 450 AV, that 450 x 3 x 2 = 2700.

Your 3x Divs are about 400 each. Fully prepped (x2), that's 2400.

If he's low on supplies, you can get his AV down to 1/4. But that's IF he's completely unsupplied (not likely if it's PBEM).

Paras with your invasion will help you to reduce his AV by "a percentage" (I've read 50%, that's hooey. MOre like 20%).

Whatever, could spend more time on the numbers, but if it's PBEM, think 9 - 12 divisions (yes, that many), or just bypass it.

-F-

[dennishe]

Why not bypass it? You don't need Kwajalein. Just bomb the place for a few more months to keep the airport closed and train your pilots at the same time. I would move on to the next targets...

[wild_Willie2]

Park a sub in the harbour, it will ALSO recon the atoll.........
 
Subs help in reducing the detection value of enemy forces......

[Sheytan]

Thanks for the info, I see what a big difference a dedicated recon unit makes, but sadly I just dont have one available yet in that AO. The game is against AI my first effort to play through a grand campaign. Im guessing ive a good shot since it is AI. But in retrospect I am beginning to think its not worth the effort. There are softer targets that will enable me to get closer to the HI to begin a bombing campaign. I took Marcus Island as well to use as a foreward staging base for this purpose. Guess I just dont like the idea of leaving a enemy base in my "rear" so to speak since my next advance should take me to Iwo Jima or siapan/tinian area.

[Sheytan]

I have a sub parked there [:)]

[Ambassador]

Hehe, I'm in my first (well, second, but I ended the first because of a too long hyatus - and too many things I didn't know at the beginning ; so, it's my first serious) attempt at a grand campaign, against the AI too.[:)]
 
How far did you pull back in the various ToO ?  Did you manage to stop the Jap onslaught earlier (further) than historical ?

[Sheytan]

I did stop them and held them, this isnt my first game as well, its my first attempt at a GC. But I have played the south pacific scenarios to death. Time really never permitted me to even consider the GC unit now. I will include some pics of the situation. But as someone said the "artificial idiot" and a human player are not one of the same. At any rate I see this as a training tool until im confident enough to play a PBEM.

This is Malaya/Burma/Indochina. The circled areas are forces concentrated to effect offensive operations in the directions indicated. My goal here is to pocket the IJ Malaya invasion force and bag whatever else I can there. The swing back towards Siagon, goal here is to clear Indochina.

I actually fought a delaying action in Malaya for the purpose of allowing units to retreat and consolidate in the hex just north of Singapore. I pulled every base unit I could there right off the bat to build up the forts. Further I concentrated all the british bombers I could into Singapore, and began bombing the main IJ advance which has the Imperial guard unit in it. These ground attacks distupted the IJ formations and slowed thier advance, buying me time to build forts up, by the time IJ hit Johore Baru the defenses were too strong, and its been trench warefare there from that point. The IJ did bag a number of my units irrespective of my effort to save everything, I lost 2 brigades and a base force unit.

China has been fairly static, I moved a number of Chinese divisons into Burma, and it was thier arrival that allowed me to begin the counterattacks im executing currently. The one bright side was a Chinese offensive into Indochina, which also bagged about 80 ships at port in Siagon when I overran the city, Japanese troop losses have been high here as well, ive destroyed 4 base force, and roughly 5 divisons, and the British just finished eliminating a pocket of 1 division 1 brigade near Rangoon, that pocket took forever to reduce.

I will add more pics and comments on the other area of operations as time goes on[;)]

[Ambassador]

I see the AI with the same eyes.  I've also made several times the SoPac & Guadalcanal scenarios, but the scale of the GC is really something.  I probably won't continue this game 'til the end, as I plan to buy AE as soon as possible (might not be able to play it immediately if there are bugs to fix first...).  I realize that if I tried a PBEM without a large-scale rehearsal first, I'd be toasted.[:-]
 
When you speak of Saigon, don't you mean Hanoi ?  I see Hanoi is held by SEA, while Saigon is still at the hands of the IJA... or did you pull back ?
Nice operations, anyway.
Don't you suffer too much from ASW with all those subs in shallow water ?
 
Myself, I've gone differently.  Rather than pull back to Singapore, I've pushed forward*.  Current date is 12/18/41, and the bunch of my Malaya Army's brigades, reinforced by three brigades from Burma area, are fighting NW of Bangkok, while my british bombers are shooting ducks in the port of Bangkok (where the AI has left 14 DD if I haven't missed any, without CAP).  Strangely, the AI has put the 18th, the 5th and the Imperial Guards Division in Khota Bharu, from where they don't seem to move, even if all is clear up to Singapore (where I've only left the static fortress).[>:]  The whole Malaya Army should have cleared Bandou in a few days, and I'll probably have to retreat to Moulmein & Rahaeng, if not Mandalay if the IJA brings its elite division from their holydays resort at Khota Bharu...
 
I got some luck against the KB too, sinking Hiryu and damaging Akagi & Soryu (they're still somewhere between Wake & Marcus, I got a couple of subs tailing them for a while, they're greatly slowed by their wounded CVs).  This leaves me free to bring my CVs south near Rabaul, where I'm making a stand, while my evac from the DEI to norther Australia, from where SWPac will advance, is going smoothly (I save whole dutch units, but only cadres from USAFFE - I try to delay the loss of the Philippines as much as possible).  My plan there is to move from Darwin to Timor/Sulawesi/Mindanao for SWPac (with some side attacks on ressource/oil-rich bases in Borneo & Java, when possible later in the war) and from Rabaul (or Noumea if Rabaul falls) to New Guinea/Truk/Palau/Luzon for SoPac, before a joint jump on Formosa.
 
How did you deal with KB ?  You're already in August, did you have your Midway, or are they still roaming free ?
And did you defend Rabaul ?  Do you follow a historical battle plan of advancing with SWPac & SoPac on the north of New Guinea ?
 
 
PS: about the casualties you talked above, it really is misrepresenting.  I got two PA Div and one PS RCT defend Legaspi against an SNLF, and they inflicted largely over a thousand casualties to the SNLF... whose OOB should not even hold a third of this total.  I'm beginning to suspect the IJA of raising zombies - according to the VP-per-squad rate of the IJA, it seems they only lose one-tenth, max, of the casualties as true casualties, all others being disablements.
 
 
 
* partly because I want to lose Singapore and Manilla, to be able to liberate them later.  And partly because I'm a careful general who hates to see parts of his armies isolated and at risk of annihilation.  "Bomb, bombard, bomb, burn and brush" is my motto, the B5.[:D]

[Sheytan]

No I mean Siagon [:)] after I clear Malaya, I will piviot and move to clear the remaining IJ forces in southern Indochina. Once completed it will remove the enemy all the way to the gulf of tonkin.

There is no dobut the AI is deaf dumb and blind, frankly no one for example would have left all those ships in Bangkok once they saw the enemy approach, much less the Yamato.

Here is a SS of the KB bieng introduced to the Liberator[;)] this sealed the game for me, ive got two invasion fleets parked at bonin and iwo jima now. with the 270 af units and a number of seebee units at each invasion to build up the base. Wont be long before im bombing Tokyo. Btw ive got a automatic victory pending 1943, assuming thats applicable to the human vs AI games.

[Sheytan]

Regarding the asw, no, initally it was pretty dangerous in that costal path because of all the escorts, however the AI also sends alot of unescorted ships, frankly I found basing PT boats in Singapore to be much more productive against small TFs whatever thier nature.

I havnt lost that many subs however. Fact I just checked the intel screen and ive lost a total of two subs! [:)]

[Ambassador]

Those planes Liberated the poor souls of the IJN sailors.[:D]
I've decided not to use 4e LBA against enemy ships (at least not at low- or mid-altitude, nor in great numbers), except when they're in a port (like it appears they were in your screenie)... and even so, 4e are high-altitude bombers, they belong to the highest skies.  I'd probably do otherwise against a live opponent who would hunt my Lexington and Enterprise on day 2 of the campaign...

[Sheytan]

This is PI and part of DEI. The IJ made a number of efforts into the DEI and it was a combination of PT boat, Torpedo Bomber, and very small surface combat task forces that held them off. Frankly I got lucky often.

Regarding PI, My supplies were just about out, and I decided if I had a choice between dying from attrition or combat id prefer my units perish engaging in the latter, much to my amazement, the deliberate attack at Clark field in June 1942 drove the IJ forces back, and I was able to maintain my attack to roll up every base force unit, and pocket the invasion force in the north, after over a month they were destroyed.

Another funny fact of all this was, I overran a IJ held base in the north while I counterattacked, that had 30K of supplies in it and I was able to hang on in PI until I snuck a few supply convoys in.

[Ambassador]

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Regarding the asw, no, initally it was pretty dangerous in that costal path because of all the escorts, however the AI also sends alot of unescorted ships, frankly I found basing PT boats in Singapore to be much more productive against small TFs whatever thier nature.

I havnt lost that many subs however. Fact I just checked the intel screen and ive lost a total of two subs! [:)]

That's not much. I lost one dutch sub the first day, around Khota Bharu before I could get them out of there, but since then I've only used them between Camhran bay & Hue, as well as other deep-sea areas along chinese & HI coasts. The highway Camhran-Hue-Hong Kong is my favourite hunting ground.

[Sheytan]

[:)] actually I was amazed when I saw the damage report come in, id assumed the cap would appear even if in port. Irrespective any weapon you can wield against a opponent is a useful one. historically LBA were employed in every role. Personally, I have found the British torpedo bomber, the Beaufort V-IX to be the most lethal weapon system I can employ, at least up until the point ive played[:D] 9/42.

Four squadrons of these sank a mini KB in the Java straits. One fleet carrier and two of the light carriers.

On a personal note I was looking through my Dad's old photos, he has been in virtually ever conflict in the modern period, WW2(Army Air Corp), Korean(USAF), Vietnam(USAID)
Operation Desert Storm(Chief of Supply LSE NATO Izmir, Turkey) Operation Provide Comfort(Chief of Suppy LSE NATO Izmir, Turkey), he retired finally for the third time! At any rate my intention was to scan some of the pictures he had from his adventures as a army air corp mechanic in WW2 in Burma and India. One notable picture is of him defusing IJ antipersonnel bomblets and stacking them in a basket, according to my Dad, the IJ fuses were defective, so they would collective the IJ bomblets, refuse them, and drop them on a IJ base!

He also has a few nice pics of him working on P-38s etc. They are all however sadly GLUED! to a album, I am debating the best method to scan them, but hopefully I can do so without too much drama.

[Saso]

Paras with your invasion will help you to reduce his AV by "a percentage" (I've read 50%, that's hooey. MOre like 20%).

Hi Feinder, can you explain me this please?