Is it fair to ask what you think is the best Matrix game?

[Cap Mandrake]

War in the Pacific.

The battle for the Dutch east Indies and Malaysia/Singapore and the PI in 1941 and ealry 1942 is sublime.

The number of Strategic options is almost limitless.

[Grell]

Conquest of the Aegean and Panzer Command Kharkov.


Regards,

Greg

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Heretic!!! [:'(]

[:D]

I tried to like it, I really did. Odd really, given I like WitP and Hearts of Iron 2 in equal measure, I think that implies I got a pretty broad spectrum of like for wargames...

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

War in the Pacific.

The battle for the Dutch east Indies and Malaysia/Singapore and the PI in 1941 and ealry 1942 is sublime.

The number of Strategic options is almost limitless.

Yeah, 1941-42 in WITP is an amazing gaming experience.

Sure it'll take you a good six months RL probably to work your way through it, but it'll be one hell of a ride.

And the time it takes gives it a certain poetry. I remember in my old game with Simon Prior years back, there is something magical about how you decide on an overall strategy at the grand scale, and then, slowly, over months of game time, your forces slowly come into the configuration you planned... while his are doing likewise of course. [:D]

I could see a long telegraphed attack on India brewing and it was glorious to see it slowly building up, and my defences slowly getting into position at the same time.

Even more glorious on that one turn when Warspite sunk a Jap CVL and did heavy damage to another one with a 15" shell in a monsoon off Sri Lanka. [:D][:D][:D][:D]

[thegreatwent]

WitP hands down has been the most immersive Matrix game for me. I think that I've spent just pennies a day to play it at this point.

[panzers]

Hmmm, let's get back on this one a year from now when WiF will have most likely have been out for a few months by then.

[ilovestrategy]

Gary Grigby's World at War for me! [:)]

[General Quarters]

My favorite is Forge of Freedom, which I played non-stop (at least it seemed non-stop to my wife) for about 8 months, which is a record for me with one game.  I also enjoyed HOI I & II a lot with good mods, but the AI was not strong enough to hold interest for a whole war.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: sterckxe


And the majority (me included) picks Conquest of the Aegean - case closed - you can all go home now [:D]

God only knows why.

Tried to phone him about it, but he's unlisted [;)]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Awful!

In what sense ? Seriously.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Awful!

In what sense ? Seriously.

I just didn't feel that what you did made any difference at all. Stuff like encirclement, holding hills or bridges, all seemed totally irrelevant. It was like an RTS, like Warcraft 3, except one shorn of all strategy.

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
Awful!

In what sense ? Seriously.

I just didn't feel that what you did made any difference at all. Stuff like encirclement, holding hills or bridges, all seemed totally irrelevant. It was like an RTS, like Warcraft 3, except one shorn of all strategy.

You've obviously never played it.

[tucson3217]

I have played COTA and HWY to the Reich, and it just does not work for me.  I want to like it so much.  Its a scale I love, I like the slow RT moving.  I loved close combat games, so I thought I would this as well.  The order system is very easy to use and I really like it.  I like the combined arms nature, the way you call in air strikes...all the 'stats' and numbers and the maps are very, very cool.

But I just never felt it mattered what I did, and I am not sure why, but I could just not get immersed with it.  I like cardboard cut out pieces like in SSG decisive battle games, and I like real time tactical (As opposed to sped up arcade fighting, which most RTS games are).  But the exchange of fire, the way the pieces stacked up and looked like a jumbled mess, I could not get over the feeling that nothing important was happening.

And I am not trying to be rude, I bought COTA and HWY to the Reich twice (lost first copy, before I started digital download everything) and did the tutorials and tried to get in the right frame of mind and sort of imagine myself giving orders and trying to appreciate the way the rules implemented fog of war with delayed actions, reaction and execution based on fatigue, morale, skill etc...but it just did not work.  I read the manuals, and played many of the scenarios.  And I prefer campaign games, but that was not the problem either.  If I had like the interface the lack of a long campaign with a core group of units would have just been on my wish list for a game I enjoy.

No, the game just failed for me, or I for it.  And I was winning my battles and not struggling with the concept or rules either.  The final kicker came when I kept feeling like my choices were sort of meaningless and so I decided to implement a big test that I thought might proof my gut feeling or disprove my theory.  If my theory would have been disproved, I may have been able to have worked into a frame of mind to enjoy it.

So, here is the test I did, and I hope the designers or Matrix do not take offense and assume I am lying.  I have a lot of respect for their work, even if I did not click with the game. 

What I did was start one of the bigger scenarios in the HWY to the Reich game.  I played the Germans.  I can not rememebr any of the other settings, so I am sorry, but I think they were all fairly standard w/ no bonuses to the AI or anything that drastic one way or another.  I forget the actual objectives, but I think there may have been 3-5 objectives across a fairly large map.  The Germans had perhaps 30-50 units, many of them tracked or motorized.  They had some good armor as well.  I do not rememebr the computers forces, but they had quite a few units as well.

MY strategy was a s follows, I drew a giant box around almost everyone of my units and clicked on a sort of 'rendezvous' point where we could all meet and be fairly near each other.  I pretty much just rushed to the spot I chose, ignoring opportunity fire or anything but just going full throttle to the meet-up area.  Once all my forces were massed on what I rememebr as being about the very left hand side of the map, in the center I waited for a few minutes and let all my people re-group and reorganize as best they could in 5-10 minutes.  At this point I think the objectives were all to the 'east' of me, some in the center of the map, some further east on the top or bottom and one or two at the very far end.

I drew a huge box around all my units and clicked on the nearest objective and pointed my horde of units to it.  They easily defeated whoever was there, and I left behind a few units to 'hold' the spot incase the computer counter attacked.  The rest of my units I drew another box around and clicked on the next closest objective, same results, not much resistance even.  I did this across the board, leaving a few behind at each place..by the last few objectives it was clear no serious counter attack was going to ever be mounted, so I left only one or two units on these objectives and added the rest to my 'black horde' of german units for the final two or three objectives.  

I can't rememebr by how much or little I won, but I did win the scenario.  After that, I could not really play it with any sort of excitement.  Maybe it was just luck, and I never tried it again, so perhaps it was.  Or maybe its not fair to do that, because no game would be designed to ever defend against such a tactic, so if I am flamed for taking a very 'gamey' method and drawing all sorts of conclusions I can see that point of view I suppose. 

But no matter, for me I really needed to see that strategy fail badly to absolve my feeling my command choices were of any significance.  And since that did not happen, I was never able to enjoy the game.  Its too bad, because I do like so many things about it, and think it is an elegant and attractive GUI.

Another game I had trouble ever getting into, has been WITP.  Now, I did have a blast running my first turn on the grand campaign as the Japanese.  Also I had a lot of fun upgrading all the art and just reading the encyclopedic nit descriptions and land just messing around with the game and interface.  My problem with WITP is perhaps that I am just too dumb or something.  I love LONG monster games and details (or I think I do!), but for the life of me I could never figure out what I was to be doing with 'industry', and how to use and get a supply chain running.  Sometimes I would send supply ships and it seems they did not load the cargo I thought they would...or they would get to their destination and not unload...and also I could not figure out where I needed to be taking this supply.  I KNOW there is an AWESOME game in there that I would just LOVE, if I could gt my head around the supply and how to run it and the industry and how to use and run it as well and where to put supply so my factories and industry runs properly and how to build up supply dumps for offensives.

With regards to WITP, I DO think there is hope I can someday enjoy this game like I should, and I really want to.  If somebody knows of a DETAILED example of play that I might follow along with, or some other way to try and understand what I should be doing I would really love it.  I have been on the forum and to fan sites and read through some of the advice for Japanese players or US players and what to do on their first turns....but it still was not detailed enough or seemed not to answer my questions I was confused over.  I get how to make TF, and send planes out on patrol..its just the whole supply chain thing, and the details I need to understand so my ships become loaded, and sent out when loaded and then unload on the other side...As it is, I have fun with the combat portion of the game, but I know that the key to the game is supply....and I love games that emphasize supply (like the board game DAK II fir instance)...and I want to play the game understanding what I am doing and being able to have a plan.  I have heard some say they don;t really understand the supply or industry parts too well, but that they have fun playing anyway.  I can have fun on the first turn doing that (and the first turn in WITP is longer than most full games !), but unless I get my mind around the whole enchilada, I don't think I will ever go much deeper into the game.because I think I would end up having ports run out of fuel, not able to repair them, or build or upgrade plans and ships and I would not enjoy that....

ok..sorry for the long windbag post!

[EUBanana]

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
You've obviously never played it.

How odd, given that I have. Repeatedly, to see what it is that people like about it.

I just don't see it. Most boring RTS ever made, after the 'oo-ahh' of the cool maps wear off.

ORIGINAL: tucson3217
But I just never felt it mattered what I did, and I am not sure why, but I could just not get immersed with it.

Yup. I felt exactly the same.

(Incidentally thats basically how I played COTA. Just grab all the units you got and send them in pell-mell, without any consideration for terrain, what units they were, anything. That always gave me as good results, or even better results, then trying to actually use any tactics. Most of those "German advance" scenarios can be won basically by doing that. Get your entire army into a big mass and just throw them in, Somme style.)

[HansBolter]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana


(Incidentally thats basically how I played COTA. Just grab all the units you got and send them in pell-mell, without any consideration for terrain, what units they were, anything. That always gave me as good results, or even better results, then trying to actually use any tactics. Most of those "German advance" scenarios can be won basically by doing that. Get your entire army into a big mass and just throw them in, Somme style.)

Which tells me the lack of hexes and compartmentalized time increments threw you off.

You can take any wargame and do what you did and get the same results.

You didn't play it you "played around with it".

[06 Maestro]

When you 'grab" a box of units, the command defaults to the highest HQ. This can mean that any actions may take 2 to 3 times longer, due to a greater orders delay. This is not a very efficient way to run a battle.

It may be possible to steamroll the AI in a few scenarios using that method, but you would not fair so well playing against a human.

[BAL]

I can understand some of the frustration with HttR/CotA. I have played, and still play a lot of turn/hex-based games - almost entirely for PBEM. Since I was used to that type of system, I had a hard time getting into HttR. I also figured, "What's the point?" I then went back & played the scenarios with no orders delay & basically gave (almost) every unit their commands. After a while, I gradually increased the orders delay & starting letting the AI handle some of the stuff. That seemed to help.


I don't have a whole lot of Matrix games but I think their best are JTCS, SPWAW & the HttR/CotA series - in no particular order.

[JudgeDredd]

Well...the world is made up of different people, I think we all know that.

I love COTA and I think the system is fantastic. Best orders simulating game out there.

I would agree that the maps, though beautiful, do have a diverse affect on how you see the tactical value of your moves

[Motomouse]

The question is not, whats is the best Matrix game? The question is: Are there any other games than Matrix games worth playing [;)]. Recently I refrained from most other pc game playing. Perhaps it is due to my old age (~40 ) [8D].

No seriously, I am not any longer interested in mainstream titles, been there done that. Besides my matrix collection (Is there anything I dont have [:D]), I like to fire up from time to time a simulator (flight, car, ship ...), or any of my other strategy gems out of my small collection [:'(].

Best non Matrix Game is Dominions 3. Educated me on prefering gameplay over graphics [;)].

Best Matrix Games (These are frequently revisited on my scarce spare times [:)]): WitP, SP WaW, ACW, FoF, JC, COTA, CC, TOAW, not to forget all the other Tillers
On the way to the best matrix game: PCK, while compared to a SP feeling by others (random campaigns, scale), I think its a step to my ideal: CC in 3d done right, with a good shot of CM inspired greatness)

Regards
Motomouse

P.S. forgot to mention the strategic studies group games (inexcusably), favourites are Battles in Normandy and Battlefront

[Tagwyn]

Hello! I am also retired and use computer gaming to keep my mind sharp! I prefer ACWl from AGEOD; FOF'; Advanced Tactics WWII. AT is better than TOWII and I don't care for John Tiller games or for any Gary Grigsby game. Of course, IMHO. T[:)]

[Big B]

I can tell you exactly how to figure out WitP,

Just please go to the WitP Forum, start reading any thread that catches your eye, and for goodness sake - simply start a new thread called "newbie needs help" or something like that...and you will be overwhelmed with responses from that community.

It is the only game forum you will ever find that is more like a "chat room" than a forum...the number of posts and hits should tell you that.

So for goodness sake do it - you owe it to yourself to get hooked like everyone else down there. [;)]

B

EDIT: And wait until AE comes out - a new experience that makes the old WitP seem just a little blahh.

ORIGINAL: tucson3217
....

Another game I had trouble ever getting into, has been WITP. Now, I did have a blast running my first turn on the grand campaign as the Japanese. Also I had a lot of fun upgrading all the art and just reading the encyclopedic nit descriptions and land just messing around with the game and interface. My problem with WITP is perhaps that I am just too dumb or something. I love LONG monster games and details (or I think I do!), but for the life of me I could never figure out what I was to be doing with 'industry', and how to use and get a supply chain running. Sometimes I would send supply ships and it seems they did not load the cargo I thought they would...or they would get to their destination and not unload...and also I could not figure out where I needed to be taking this supply. I KNOW there is an AWESOME game in there that I would just LOVE, if I could gt my head around the supply and how to run it and the industry and how to use and run it as well and where to put supply so my factories and industry runs properly and how to build up supply dumps for offensives.

With regards to WITP, I DO think there is hope I can someday enjoy this game like I should, and I really want to. If somebody knows of a DETAILED example of play that I might follow along with, or some other way to try and understand what I should be doing I would really love it. I have been on the forum and to fan sites and read through some of the advice for Japanese players or US players and what to do on their first turns....but it still was not detailed enough or seemed not to answer my questions I was confused over. I get how to make TF, and send planes out on patrol..its just the whole supply chain thing, and the details I need to understand so my ships become loaded, and sent out when loaded and then unload on the other side...As it is, I have fun with the combat portion of the game, but I know that the key to the game is supply....and I love games that emphasize supply (like the board game DAK II fir instance)...and I want to play the game understanding what I am doing and being able to have a plan. I have heard some say they don;t really understand the supply or industry parts too well, but that they have fun playing anyway. I can have fun on the first turn doing that (and the first turn in WITP is longer than most full games !), but unless I get my mind around the whole enchilada, I don't think I will ever go much deeper into the game.because I think I would end up having ports run out of fuel, not able to repair them, or build or upgrade plans and ships and I would not enjoy that....

ok..sorry for the long windbag post!