Jap Player running turn multiple times

[bigjoe96912]

What prevents the japanese player from running the turn multiple times until he gets the best results possible. I have seen in one turn my carriers were in reaction range of his surface force on a bombardment mission and my carriers do nothing. then 2 turns later my carriers react closing twice in one turn towards the same spot, loose all my planes and he doesn't get a scratch. Since the jap player runs the turn and everything has a randomness to it how can you tell he is running it until he gets a more favorible result for him? This has seemed to occur alot, Caps not launching, bombers not attacking, I just can't see the allies being on the loosing end of every engagement, surely a random lucky change out of 300 carrier planes attacking surely 1 would survive once in a while and get a hit. I don't want to accuse but surly the game has to have a one time run check somhow

[Historiker]

Nothing prevents him.

Try it, you'll always get the same results!

[Mike Solli]

Almost always.  Once I was in the middle of running a turn and power went out in the house.  When the power came back on, I ran the turn again.  There was a naval engagement that came out different.  The reason I remember was because I trashed the Allies the first time and didn't the second time. [8|]

[bigjoe96912]

I have tested it and I have had certain results change, A lot has to do with the die roles that the game does

[floydg]

In my game, we just had an incident like that. My Japan-side opponent ran it on a work computer (off of a memory stick) and got one set of results. When I ran the replay, it looked quite different, so I suspected the sync bug. When he re-ran it off his home computer, he got the same results I saw. I didn't think that running the turn from the save file should ever end up with different results, but it did.

[Cuttlefish]

ORIGINAL: bigjoe96912

I don't want to accuse but surly the game has to have a one time run check somhow

The game does have such a check; the random numbers that generate the combat results are locked in place before the Japanese player begins the turn resolution. Run the turn as many times as you want, the results will not change.

If either player changes their moves the random numbers will change and so will the results, but since neither player can access the turn without their opponent's password once they save and exit this is not a problem.

[jwilkerson]

ORIGINAL: bigjoe96912

What prevents the japanese player from running the turn multiple times until he gets the best results possible. I have seen in one turn my carriers were in reaction range of his surface force on a bombardment mission and my carriers do nothing. then 2 turns later my carriers react closing twice in one turn towards the same spot, loose all my planes and he doesn't get a scratch. Since the jap player runs the turn and everything has a randomness to it how can you tell he is running it until he gets a more favorible result for him? This has seemed to occur alot, Caps not launching, bombers not attacking, I just can't see the allies being on the loosing end of every engagement, surely a random lucky change out of 300 carrier planes attacking surely 1 would survive once in a while and get a hit. I don't want to accuse but surly the game has to have a one time run check somhow

The design is supposed to be that the results will always be the same. However, the reality is that - that is not the case. Exiting the animations can (not always) cause one instance of the so called "synch bug". The workaround is for the Japanese player never to exit the animations.

If you have any doubts, engage the services of a neutral third party. You send your turn (the turn in question) to that neutral third party and have your opponent send the third party his password. The results of the third party's run (assuming he does not exit the animations) should be correct and should match your results and your opponents result.

99.9% of the time, if the Japanese player does not exit running animations then there will not be a problem and reruns will always produce the same results. The only further exception is when the files on the two players machines do not match closely enough. The solution to this is for both players to fully reinstall from scratch using the same procedure. This should clear up the remaining major cause of "synch bug".

[Richrd]

As someone who plays exclusively vs the AI, I know you can change any result you don't like. I have run a turn, and realised that I forgot something. After the turn, I exit and restart the game at the just concluded turn, make whatever changes to the japanese turn that I wanted, rerun the resolution and everything is different. In my own defense, I have never rerun a turn only to change a result that was unfavorable to me.

[bradfordkay]

Richrd, there is a difference in the way the game handles PBEMs and games against the AI. As Joe says, in PBEM the game is designed to make the turn come out the same every time - however there are a few bugs that can oversome this design. Most quality players will do everything possible to prevent those bugs from coming into play.

[Tophat1815]

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

Almost always. Once I was in the middle of running a turn and power went out in the house. When the power came back on, I ran the turn again. There was a naval engagement that came out different. The reason I remember was because I trashed the Allies the first time and didn't the second time. [8|]

Had the same thing happen in my current pbm game with the US Sub I sunk getting a new life! [8|]

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: bigjoe96912

What prevents the japanese player from running the turn multiple times until he gets the best results possible. I have seen in one turn my carriers were in reaction range of his surface force on a bombardment mission and my carriers do nothing. then 2 turns later my carriers react closing twice in one turn towards the same spot, loose all my planes and he doesn't get a scratch. Since the jap player runs the turn and everything has a randomness to it how can you tell he is running it until he gets a more favorible result for him? This has seemed to occur alot, Caps not launching, bombers not attacking, I just can't see the allies being on the loosing end of every engagement, surely a random lucky change out of 300 carrier planes attacking surely 1 would survive once in a while and get a hit. I don't want to accuse but surly the game has to have a one time run check somhow

The design is supposed to be that the results will always be the same. However, the reality is that - that is not the case. Exiting the animations can (not always) cause one instance of the so called "synch bug". The workaround is for the Japanese player never to exit the animations.

If you have any doubts, engage the services of a neutral third party. You send your turn (the turn in question) to that neutral third party and have your opponent send the third party his password. The results of the third party's run (assuming he does not exit the animations) should be correct and should match your results and your opponents result.

99.9% of the time, if the Japanese player does not exit running animations then there will not be a problem and reruns will always produce the same results. The only further exception is when the files on the two players machines do not match closely enough. The solution to this is for both players to fully reinstall from scratch using the same procedure. This should clear up the remaining major cause of "synch bug".

the biggest problem with not exiting the animation is that the Japanese player doesn´t always have the time to watch 3 hours of combat animation from one turn...

[Coach Z]

As Floyd G said our last turn was very strange. I often run turns and the game off my flashdrive and have never had a problem. But the resulkts and combat text of the turn I ran were VERY different then what he saw when I sent him the 001 file. When I redownloaded the turn he sent and ran it a 2nd time, my results were the same as the text file he had. Appeared as 2 different results b/c several Allied ground unit had beeen forced to retreat in the 1st version and apearred to have done so after the combat results were over.

[rtrapasso]

You can change things as Japan by various maneuvers... however, it will result in the sync bug.

This can often be inadvertent (i.e. - not rebooting before running the results), but continual sync bugs are going to make the other players reluctant to continue to play - just from the point of game mechanics.

Of course, it might also be quite a chore to produce results favorable to the Japanese as some people have noted.

There are OTHER causes of SYNC bugs (i.e. - differing map files, differing EXE files, etc.), but at least some Allied players have PMed me about suspicions of cheating when this (i.e. sync bug) happens at a critical juncture.

EDIT: In a stable game, i am betting that one or the other players not rebooting before running the results is the most common cause of SYNC bugs. This is especially prone to occur if you've been running WITP before running a result (i.e. - you are playing another game, then load up the game, run a result turn.)

There are multiple causes of the SYNC bug, and if you want a more complete writeup check here:

fb.asp?m=1686565

[Jim D Burns]

If the game would simply execute the turn after the allied player hits save, there would never be any worry of cheating or being out of sync. Have the turn execute and save the results, but don't allow the allied player to watch it or have the engine generate any report files, until Japan sees it first. Simple solution and no more worries about the Japanese player re-downloading and playing the same turn over and over until he gets what he likes.

Jim

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

If the game would simply execute the turn after the allied player hits save, there would never be any worry of cheating or being out of sync. Have the turn execute and save the results, but don't allow the allied player to watch it or have the engine generate any report files, until Japan sees it first. Simple solution and no more worries about the Japanese player re-downloading and playing the same turn over and over until he gets what he likes.

Jim

No - because then the ALLIED player could manipulate things... and the sync problem would be worse because if it automatically executed the turn on finalization, there would be no possibility for a reboot before running the results.

If there were some sort of tournament/serious problem or suspicion of cheating, the obvious solution would be for a third party to run the turn. This has happened on occasion.

[Jim D Burns]

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
No - because then the ALLIED player could manipulate things... and the sync problem would be worse because if it automatically executed the turn on finalization, there would be no possibility for a reboot before running the results.

If there were some sort of tournament/serious problem or suspicion of cheating, the obvious solution would be for a third party to run the turn. This has happened on occasion.

Umm, how exactly can the allied player manipulate anything if he’s not allowed to see the results until he gets the turn back from Japan? I mean what’s the point, he can’t know the results until he gets his next turn, so why would he re-run turns?

I’ve never read or heard of anyone suspecting someone of cheating on the forums, but the topic of this thread is about the ability of Japan to re-run turns and *see* the results. If this is occurring, it’s a simple matter for Japan to re-download a turn and run it over and over until he gets a result he likes.

The solution I mentioned could work for either side, simply delay the reports and replay for the side that executes the turn, so they can’t see the results before their opponent does. That would end any re-running of turns if it is in fact occurring. But it makes sense to have it occur after the allied side, so Japan can watch the last turns results before plotting his move.

Why this would be a problem for anyone, leaves me a bit baffled.

Jim

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
No - because then the ALLIED player could manipulate things... and the sync problem would be worse because if it automatically executed the turn on finalization, there would be no possibility for a reboot before running the results.

If there were some sort of tournament/serious problem or suspicion of cheating, the obvious solution would be for a third party to run the turn. This has happened on occasion.

Umm, how exactly can the allied player manipulate anything if he’s not allowed to see the results until he gets the turn back from Japan? I mean what’s the point, he can’t know the results until he gets his next turn, so why would he re-run turns?

I’ve never read or heard of anyone suspecting someone of cheating on the forums, but the topic of this thread is about the ability of Japan to re-run turns and *see* the results. If this is occurring, it’s a simple matter for Japan to re-download a turn and run it over and over until he gets a result he likes.

The solution I mentioned could work for either side, simply delay the reports and replay for the side that executes the turn, so they can’t see the results before their opponent does. That would end any re-running of turns if it is in fact occurring. But it makes sense to have it occur after the allied side, so Japan can watch the last turns results before plotting his move.

Why this would be a problem for anyone, leaves me a bit baffled.

Jim

The way you suggested: i.e. - the game to automatically generate the results as soon as the Allied player finalizes the turn - would necessarily result in the Allied player seeing the results soon as the game ran them after he clicked "finalalize".

If the results were not to his liking, he could take a pre-finalized save, redo some stuff, and rerun the turn... if the "result" file was shipped off to Japan first, the method would be identical to what we have now (i.e. - once an Allied player finalizes a turn, he can no longer manipulate it... but the Japanese player can be manipulating how the EXE file generates the final result.)*

The Japanese player can NOT just redownload the turn, and run it again to get different results - it requires manipulation to get different results... sometimes the manipulation will not be a deliberate thing (i.e. - forgetting to reboot), but it is possible that it is in some instances. That's when sometimes a third party is called in to resolve a problem...

The best technical method to fix this is to (1) fix Windows memory problems (good luck); or (2) somehow (when a turn is run) to get WITP to clean out every bit of memory that could effect things in the replay as well as to "bulletproof" other things that can cause SYNC error (i.e. - to somehow stop instances where ESC can affect the results.) Efforts are ongoing, but slow...

EDIT: What i think you are suggesting is that a "result" be generated that the Allied player can not see... this is EXACTLY what the game does now, however, at some point an animation is generated (the "Replay") - it is at this point that system is open to manipulation.

It might be possible to input that actual results to the finalized Allied turn, but since no reboot is possible before this is done without adding several more steps to the process, it would cause more problems.

A possible solution would be:
a) Allied player finalizes turn.
b) This generates an "interim" file. (this is what the Allied player currently ships to Japan for processing). Let's call it
WITPX000.pws
NEW: c) Allied player reboots.* (EDIT: *Note - if this step is left out, you again have potential for SYNC bug - i.e. - animations would not match the results.)
NEW: d) Allied player reloads the interim file which generates the starting setup for the Japanese player, but is unable to see the results. Let's call this file WITP000.
e. Allied player ships turn (WITP000) to Japan.
f. Japanese player uses this to generate an Animation file, (shipped back to Allied player) - file WITP001.PWS
g. Japan uses the WITP000 file to make his moves...

Of course, this would require a rewrite of the code... and i don't think this is going to happen.

REEDIT: The problem arises because of the SYNC bug, which (a) shouldn't happen, b) wasn't anticipated, and has the potential to be abused.

Adding 2 more steps to the solution would probably also generate new unanticipated problems, and could make things worse.

[bigjoe96912]

And the actual problem is a case of sour grapes. If I hadn't had my carriers set having a reaction range they wouldn't have closed within range of his land bases much less his carrier. And after talking to him he had stripped his 8 cv's of all his dive bombers and loaded them with another group of fighters. which is why I only lost 1 carrier instead of 5 He wasn't expecting my carriers to be in the area and was expecting a massive attack from my land base that his BB's already closed out the air field, his next turn he high tailed it north cause I practically decimated his carrier based fighters and torpedoe bombers. So I didn't get a hit but I did almost as much damage. However it did look like everyone got lively about the premise of the question.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: bigjoe96912

And the actual problem is a case of sour grapes. If I hadn't had my carriers set having a reaction range they wouldn't have closed within range of his land bases much less his carrier. And after talking to him he had stripped his 8 cv's of all his dive bombers and loaded them with another group of fighters. which is why I only lost 1 carrier instead of 5 He wasn't expecting my carriers to be in the area and was expecting a massive attack from my land base that his BB's already closed out the air field, his next turn he high tailed it north cause I practically decimated his carrier based fighters and torpedoe bombers. So I didn't get a hit but I did almost as much damage. However it did look like everyone got lively about the premise of the question.

i am not sure what you are referring to, but the problem is a recurring one, and not limited to one game.

[Mike Solli]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

ORIGINAL: bigjoe96912

What prevents the japanese player from running the turn multiple times until he gets the best results possible. I have seen in one turn my carriers were in reaction range of his surface force on a bombardment mission and my carriers do nothing. then 2 turns later my carriers react closing twice in one turn towards the same spot, loose all my planes and he doesn't get a scratch. Since the jap player runs the turn and everything has a randomness to it how can you tell he is running it until he gets a more favorible result for him? This has seemed to occur alot, Caps not launching, bombers not attacking, I just can't see the allies being on the loosing end of every engagement, surely a random lucky change out of 300 carrier planes attacking surely 1 would survive once in a while and get a hit. I don't want to accuse but surly the game has to have a one time run check somhow

The design is supposed to be that the results will always be the same. However, the reality is that - that is not the case. Exiting the animations can (not always) cause one instance of the so called "synch bug". The workaround is for the Japanese player never to exit the animations.

If you have any doubts, engage the services of a neutral third party. You send your turn (the turn in question) to that neutral third party and have your opponent send the third party his password. The results of the third party's run (assuming he does not exit the animations) should be correct and should match your results and your opponents result.

99.9% of the time, if the Japanese player does not exit running animations then there will not be a problem and reruns will always produce the same results. The only further exception is when the files on the two players machines do not match closely enough. The solution to this is for both players to fully reinstall from scratch using the same procedure. This should clear up the remaining major cause of "synch bug".

the biggest problem with not exiting the animation is that the Japanese player doesn´t always have the time to watch 3 hours of combat animation from one turn...

I had heard that the synch bug occurs if the Japanese player hits the esc key during combat. If you click the button to end the combat (on screen) it doesn't happen. I click the button and don't have problems with the synch bug.