Campaign mode

[SeaMonkey]

Got to add my two cents in here with GE, two grogs are we, barking up the same tree.

But I'll add a bit more fuel to the fire, again.....those damn unit counter bases sure do hide a lot of those beautiful maps....got to be a fix, a compromise, something.....I want to see the terrain and the units at the same time.

Yep...I want cake...and after all, what are you suppose to do with cake?[:'(]

[Uedel]

Well Arjuna not getting feedback from Customers for wanting a Campaign is not a failproof sign that this feature is NOT requested heavily.
I for my self have lost almost intresst in  BftB after i heard it has no Campaign.
I buyed AA-RDoA and HttR also CotA (wich was a failure for my self) i enjoyed the 2 first games very very much it was fresh and realy goood playing and i whanted more.
CotA disapointed me somehow cant tell exactly what but it didnt give me the fun.
Now BftB with no campaign will be like AA for me, beside new features. But what i was realy realy looking for all the Time was the Campaign, i whant the feeling that i reached something by playing clever.
And when i play Scenarios i never play the short ones, i allways play the longest one, because they come near to what is a campaign anything else doesnt realy strike me.

Also for the Scenario Editor, realy this Editor is TBH very very restricting and doesnt fill my needs, look over to Battlefronts Combat Mission series (i know u know them as they puplished your first Title) what kept CM so long alive was the very very easy and good made Scenario Designer letting you to allmost all kinda scenarios u ever dreamed of. but to be gentle and i realy dont whant to anger you but compared to CM Scenario Designer the AA Engine Scenario Designer up to the CotA Version is a Nightmare.

I dont hope that i have been to hard, but it is my real and open sight about AA, this game is realy great but you are to restricting in terms of Scen Design (special Estab wise) and modability. These Scen Designers dont steel anything from you, they give you and your game very much for FREE and all this stuff leads to other people buying the game because of all this FREE aditional Stuff and they will Buy the nixt title for Features it brings and not for the Campaig it is set.
Also Campaigns at least is the only thing real worth to play in a Wargame.

just my 0.02€

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Uedel

Well Arjuna not getting feedback from Customers for wanting a Campaign is not a failproof sign that this feature is NOT requested heavily.

I appreciate your feedback and I agree with the above point from a purely logical point of view. However, if I accept this for the campaign feature, then I must also accept it for all the other features on our wish list. So then what sets one of these features apart if not the actual feedback we have received. In the absence of any other data being available this is about all we have to go on.

I accept that there are those like yourself who passionately prefer a campaign style of game. It's just that I do not think you are in the majority. Further, I also accept that there are people like yourself who love to design scenarios. But there are very few of you indeed. I know we all like to think we are part of the majority but the wise man sees and accepts that in some if not many ways we are not part of the majority. All wargamers should realise this. By defintion we are in a minority game-wise. And in many ways it's good to be part of a niche. The bonds that bind are stronger. However, it can mean, as in this case, that sometimes our desires are not going to be met.

In the final analysis for our company to survive we need to cater to the needs of the majority of wargamers. By creating a revolutionary design - ie not your traditional turn based hex based wargame - we have already turned into the wind and taken a great risk. We have gradually won over more and more wargamers and we have done this by listening to their demands and responding where we can within our very limited resources. We need to make each post a winner from here on.

According to my best assessment, the demand for a campaign feature does not yet warrant giving it priority nor does spending a lot of effort to enhance the scenario editors. I may well be wrong but IMO we would not garner a large increase in sales sufficent to justify the effort and expenditure.

Over time both these features will gravitate to the top of the wish list and will then get addressed. But it won't be for BFTB.

[GlobalExplorer]

Is it possible that you are ignoring my question about the scenario files? Though I dont own any of the games yet I have downloaded the Airborne Assault Demo as well as some campaign mods. And I found that all resources (.AAS etc) are made unreadable and unsuited for external campaign generation. I also see the Excel file is password encrypted in order to hide the vba code that writes into the scenario files, so this is not just an oversight.

A simple "No, we decided it is not in our interest to have open files" would settle the issue for me.

My final recommendation is to make a list of the truly classic and successful wargames and how many of those didnt even have a basic campaign.

[Howard7x]

Arjuna,
 
I understand that there wont be a campaign. Thats fine by me.
 
One thing i would like to see is a sort of timeline to the battles in the front end of the game.
What really baffled me about Cota was that when you go to start a new battle, i had no idea what battle came first or at what time and where exactly in the theater it took place.
 
I dont think it would be to big a job to change this. All you would need is a sort of time line with each battle sitting on it so that you could "follow" each battle from one to the next. This has been done many times before in wargames and helps focus the battles into something the user can follow from the opening battle through to the last battle in the bulge campaign.
 
Also, a better discription of each battle when you click on it in the front end would help. Prehaps a map of the bulge area in the main screen at the side of the scenarios, with the location and time of each battle highlighted on the map would help people understand where, when and why they are fighting each battle without having to trawl through each scenarios text file to figure out what they are fighting for. You could have the timeline at the bottom of the screen. I could do a mock up screen of what im talking about if you like?
 
This for me would make up for the lack of a campaign mode and is definately something CotA needed from my point of view seeing as i had no real knowledge of the theater and no real direction as to what battle was fought where and when.

[patchogue]

I don't really see what a campaign feature would add here - if you play one of the long games (e.g. Maleme in COTA) you are dealing with all the relevant issues e.g. fatigue and supply over 9 or so days rather than a half hour fire fight that many (outstanding) games represent.
In most battles you are using different units - this game is supposed to be an historical recreation of events that took place at about the same time so gaining experience etc doesn't really make sense.

Yours in anticipation of many well spent hours...

[GlobalExplorer]

@Howard7x thats what I meant, too. There need not be a complex campaign, that could even be out of place. What I miss is something that puts battles into context the way it was in CC2 / Panzer General and creates the right athmosphere. Right now there isnt even an overview over the battles, just that damn listbox.

As I said CC2 was fine:

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: Howard7x
I could do a mock up screen of what im talking about if you like?

Yes please.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Howard7x
Also, a better discription of each battle when you click on it in the front end would help. Prehaps a map of the bulge area in the main screen at the side of the scenarios, with the location and time of each battle highlighted on the map would help people understand where, when and why they are fighting each battle without having to trawl through each scenarios text file to figure out what they are fighting for. You could have the timeline at the bottom of the screen. I could do a mock up screen of what im talking about if you like?

This for me would make up for the lack of a campaign mode and is definately something CotA needed from my point of view.....

This could be achieved by adding a button in the mission briefing part of the front end (after you've selected/loaded a scenario). The button could start a browser (IE, Firefox, whatever) window with flash content. A little flash animation with look and feel of the main menu, the front end. The animation could show the big picture (let's say the entire BFTB area, and arrows showing the armies' progress, pretty much like a 1944 newsreel. A while ago, (i think) Simovitch provided a big map of the theater, showing boundaries (rectangles) of the scenario maps. An animation could start with that overview. The user could then click on each mission area, and gather some rough info, without having to read the text.
I think there are quite a few ppl in the community who know how to do it, and Mark Schw. surely knows how to do the stuff, piece of cake for him, will take him a day only, if at all.

[Arjuna]

Howard7x/GoodGuy,
 
I agree with the thrust of your suggestion. However, this will have to wait till the next title. I've stopped adding new features and am focussing on bug fixes and tutorials now.
 
Perhaps for the next title we can redo the scenario selection window. I would like to have a series of columns, that can be sorted. So you can sort by scenario name, map title, scenario length, start time, amount of forces, complexity etc. I like the idea of having a big picture map and showing the actual area of the scenario on it. The flash idea would be good to provide an animated intro. All good. Thanks.
 
BTW we have had a TT item on these for sometime. I've elevated it up the list for the next title ( not a promise but it's now more likely ).
 
TT2313 - UI - Scenario Selection - Improvements

[Howard7x]

Are you still aiming for an August release date?
Im not in any rush by the way, just curious as to how your dev time is doing due to your new contract.
 
The when its done, its done mentality is a good one in my book, judging by some of the other games released by matrix in the last few months. No one wants a buggy and unfinished game. [:-]

[Arjuna]

August is now unlikely. I have some work to do for Defence that will take up part of my time this month, but primarily I am working on getting out BFTB. At this stage of development there is always a list of things to tie off, none of which are big items but there's a lot of little one's. Richard and the beta bunnies keep pressuring me to tweak the AI aggro level just a little more and then there are the tutorials and docos to work up and a demo to finish off. So it's a lot of work altogether. I would reckon Sep/Oct is a better aim point at this stage.

[FredSanford3]

Good. My birthday is Oct. 10. I know what I want for a present (besides a fire extinguisher for all the candles on the cake).

[Arjuna]

Ah those fire extinguishers are much overrated. The chemical residue reacts with the chocolate icing and leaves a very unpleasant taste in the mouth. Trust someone who'se been there done that. [;)]

[goodwoodrw]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Ah those fire extinguishers are much overrated. The chemical residue reacts with the chocolate icing and leaves a very unpleasant taste in the mouth. Trust someone who'se been there done that. [;)]

Ha Dave, You have just reminded me of the old dark ages when the Army Reserve ( or the CMF in those days) use to employ civvi cooks on camps. Most of them had never seen a petrol fired 57 cooker and a choofas ( gee i wonder how OH&S would have handled them) anyhow back to the original line, the cookers only had two settings one a raging fire and two extinguished by a BCF fire extinguisher, the food tasted foul [:D] Half the blokes from that exercise have probably died of some sort of cancer.
Ron

[Arjuna]

Ron,
 
I have a few stories of my own re the old choofas. I remember one exploding on us one night, thankfully with no one in the immediate vicinity.  Another one that was used to heat water for the shower buckets caught fire, much to the disgust of those lining up to have their 60 seconds under the rosette.[:)]

[goodwoodrw]

[:D] this camp in question was at Cerberus when I was attached to MWTU. One particular civi started the exercise with a beard the poor soul didn't have it when he went home [:D][:D] the story goes that he was clean shaved by an orange ball of fire as he was checking to see if there sufficient petrol was dripping onto the flash pan of the choofa [X(][X(][X(] I spent 30 years plus in the Reserve, two I things I managed to avoid, crank starting a KVA and lighting a choofa [&o]

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

...and a demo to finish off.

Best news ever. Many ppl (including me [:D]) asked for a demo, as this is the best way to drag people from the dark side (other games [;)]) and introduce them to this pearl.

[GlobalExplorer]

ORIGINAL: Arjuna

Howard7x/GoodGuy,

I agree with the thrust of your suggestion. However, this will have to wait till the next title. I've stopped adding new features and am focussing on bug fixes and tutorials now.

Perhaps for the next title we can redo the scenario selection window. I would like to have a series of columns, that can be sorted. So you can sort by scenario name, map title, scenario length, start time, amount of forces, complexity etc. I like the idea of having a big picture map and showing the actual area of the scenario on it. The flash idea would be good to provide an animated intro. All good. Thanks.

BTW we have had a TT item on these for sometime. I've elevated it up the list for the next title ( not a promise but it's now more likely ).

TT2313 - UI - Scenario Selection - Improvements

So you will stick with the listbox as well as the policy about the data. This is regrettable, but it's of course your decision. I guess I will check back in a year or two if anything new is available. The tactical engine has a huge appeal to me, but I cannot get into it without some gamey presentation! You must decide if you want to please only the defense ministry and ppl with military background or like minded gamers as well. I wish you good luck with your plans!

[Arjuna]

ORIGINAL: GlobalExplorer
You must decide if you want to please only the defense ministry and ppl with military background or like minded gamers as well. I wish you good luck with your plans!

Thanks for your best wishes. I appreciate that.

As you say it is our decision as to what features we do and how we invest the few resources we have. You seem to think that our target audience is confined to Defence and people with military background. True there are a good number that are into our product, but going from the responses on the forums I'd say the majority of our customers are wargamers with an interest in rather than any experience in military operations.

Re updatinting the scenario list. As I said above, I agree it's a good idea but frankly we cannot afford to delay the release. We are not a big company with deep pockets. Far from it. We have a very finite amount of time in which we can further develop the engine bhefore we need to release a product and bring in more revenue. That is just a fact of life. As I said above, we will look at doing this for the next title.

Re Changing policy on opening up the scenario data. Frankly I don't agree with this approach. If I had a 100 people clamouring for this feature I would consider it, but we don't. By my count there is less than a handful, including yourself who have requested such a feature. It would take around 2 to 3 months of work to make the changes needed to implement this feature. I don't see that as a good investment to get a handful of direct sales.

And as to the indirect sales occassioned by any extra scenarios that might be developed, well I am sceptical on that too. First many may step up to the plate but most strike out before they make a home run. And for those that do actually finish a scenario, few have the professional rigour to test and refine it to a standard acceptable for the end users, let alone support it after it is released. If they are not supported then they do more harm than good.