Civilization Revolution - I think they've finally done it!

[Veldor]

The first massively successful console strategy/wargame recentely arrived.

I've not been this shocked in ages. To visit stores and see lines of kids buying this game. To see young and old inquiring about it. To even have a store employee ask me "Whats with this game?"

I bought it for $60.00. Its comes on Blu-Ray in 1080p for PS3... Its pretty much an identical version for the XBOX 360 but on DVD.

I'm very impressed with it. Sid Meier is a genious and I see why this he considers his ultimate Civ Game ever.

But at the same time I read all the reviewers who give it 9 outta 10's and read all the newcomers who love it or even the many many civ fans who also do... I can't help but be disgusted by all the civfanatics that think the game is the biggest ripoff ever made.

Why is it that strategy/wargamers think or even insist that every new version must be that much more complicated and drawn out than the last? 10 More levels of micromanagement and 10 times as long to play? I think some need to rethink what "fun" is or should be or otherwise stop trying so hard to pretend to be smarter than a fifth grader. [:D]

Civilization Revolution hasn't been "dumbed down", the gameplay has been streamlined and perfected and the game "re-envisioned" rather than ported. The multiplayer game finally plausible to finish without dropouts and diplomacy style talks even being taken seriously enough to allow for "private one on one chats" outside normal game chat. Somewhat of another first in console games.

That it is a monster success I am thrilled. That it may spawn a new generation and further mainstream strategy/wargames even better.

The wargame world may have finally finally come full circle back to where we started. When the likes of Blitzkrieg was considered a plenty fine and complicated game. To which things graduly shifted through brilliance and into absurdity then quickly to near extinction. Here is to hoping the reincarnation will have enough momentum to last (One teen said he was buying this instead of the new Metal Gear game after playing the free demo online).

I personally find the game a flawless experience, even if it is a bit of an innocent one...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Why is it that strategy/wargamers think or even insist that every new version must be that much more complicated and drawn out than the last? 10 More levels of micromanagement and 10 times as long to play? I think some need to rethink what "fun" is or should be or otherwise stop trying so hard to pretend to be smarter than a fifth grader. [:D]

Why do strategy wargamers have to be insulted merely because you perceive that their tastes differ from yours?

If you like it, great. I am willing to be persuaded. I'm always in the market for something I might like, and I value what others have to say about products with which I am not familiar. So persuade.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Why is it that strategy/wargamers think or even insist that every new version must be that much more complicated and drawn out than the last? 10 More levels of micromanagement and 10 times as long to play? I think some need to rethink what "fun" is or should be or otherwise stop trying so hard to pretend to be smarter than a fifth grader. [:D]

Why do strategy wargamers have to be insulted merely because you perceive that their tastes differ from yours?

If you like it, great. I am willing to be persuaded. I'm always in the market for something I might like, and I value what others have to say about products with which I am not familiar. So persuade.

Mostly meant as a rhetorical question but you've given me the chance to clarify a second statement of persuasion..

Why I applaud Sid here is because instead of doing what pretty much all others do by adding yet another level of complexity on top of the beast that is CIV4.. He instead truly tried to reinvent the game and bring it to an entirely new audience. He could have done a lousy port of CIV3 or CIV4 or even a redesign inside of those parameters...

But no, he relooked at every single aspect, left a few intact but changed many many others. I suppose in the end it still plays like a CIV game. But its now one you might actually call fun and have a real ability to play and finish against other real people.

Thank you Sid for breaking the mold...

[pasternakski]

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Why I applaud Sid here is because instead of doing what pretty much all others do by adding yet another level of complexity on top of the beast that is CIV4..

I don't quite understand this remark. Forgive me if I sound like just another stupid fifth-grader. Who is the dastardly villain who has been adding levels of complexity on top of the beast that is CIV4?

He instead truly tried to reinvent the game...

Are you certain that Sid Meier is all that involved with these games anymore? The impression I have gotten is that his name is used for marketing, and he pretty much goes about his own business, which is not game design anymore.

...and bring it to an entirely new audience.

Well, maybe this is the game for me after all, seeing as how I had no attraction for CIV4 at all. Tried it. Hated it.

He could have done a lousy port of CIV3 or CIV4 or even a redesign inside of those parameters...

But no, he relooked at every single aspect, left a few intact but changed many many others. I suppose in the end it still plays like a CIV game. But its now one you might actually call fun and have a real ability to play and finish against other real people.

Thank you Sid for breaking the mold...

Thank you, Veldor, for pointing us in the direction of this game. If not for you, I would never even have considered it.

[Joram]

As a big fan of the Civ series I admit I can have high expectations.  I would not call this a dumbed down version but I would certainly call it "Civ-Lite".  I haven't put a whole lot of time into it yet but it my initial impressions were favorable.  I really like how they did the avatars, the controls are pretty intuitive and it really captures the flavor of Civilization.  However, there are some significant differences that PC users need to be aware of like only one map size.  Diplomacy is all but non-existant.  No open borders for instance.  I'm not sure I care for the way you advance to different ages.  You get to medieval after what 4 techs?  I do like how they really simplified workers and roadbuilding is only done by gold now.  Jury is still out on the AI but at least there's easy MP (though I'll likely never try it). 
 
I think bottom-line it's a fine game but if you are expecting a straight port of Civ4 to the PS3 then you will be disappointed.  This is truly just the beer and pretzel version of Civ that you can finish in a few hours.

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

Are you certain that Sid Meier is all that involved with these games anymore? The impression I have gotten is that his name is used for marketing, and he pretty much goes about his own business, which is not game design anymore.

I think the first one was the only one he actually designed although as "director of creative development", or some such, he presumably is entitled to some of the credit Veldor is dishing out.

The new game sounds good to me, I've long since lost interest in the series as if I want to play a strategy game that takes that long there are many better ones. This one actually sounds fun... albeit it not enough fun to fork out on a PS3 to play it.

[orwell]

The streamlining of the experience has in general improved the Civ 4 BTS experience, while retaining some of the better features from that. A few things I do miss is the larger game, instead of you and 4 other civ's and a small map, however this is not quite as detrimental to the game as it might first appear if you play on the normal difficulty. It IS still a civ game, and therefore combat results may require a couple save/loads before reality sets in, like a cruiser at 1/3rd your strength sinking a battleship, but overall I find the AI to be enjoyable in how it functions and survives in the game world, the difficulty levels balanced so as to provide a better experience, and would recommend at least renting it.

One instance I played, it was me as China, France, Germany, Zulu, and the Japanese. France strove for a cultural domination victory, and thus were not prepared to put up a fight quite like others. Thus once they started pushing into my territory over a couple wars and several centuries I destroyed them. The next faction to cause problems for my growing China, which is a balanced civilization able to go for all victories, was Germany. By destroying France I had a large region all to myself, as there was just a narrow choke point to the other side of the continent where the other three civ's were. Anyhow, the German's were focused on a domination victory, and produced towards that. Because they were so far away, me and a friend had time to tech up and were able to out do the germans in defense, until the Zulu built a city at the choke point. This put a halt to them causing problems for us, and allowed us to pursue a technology victory by reaching Alpha Centauri.

I'm not entirely sure what the Zulu's domination goal was, as they strove neither towards technical victory, cultural domination, economic success, and while they came to become the island nation of the game, with having something like 5 out of 9 islands occupied by them, they were still not achieving much. Eventually our peace with them ended, and we took their choke hold city, and eventually they conceded peace.  However, the Germans had used this time as well to push towards creating a powerful army. If not for catapults, the first deep water navy (which is thankfully now important to have, the naval aspect of the game really makes the late game fun for me, unlike in Civ 4 where the late game was meh and the naval aspect was pathetic), and that defensive city, we would have been surely overrun. Defense, tech, and we strove for pursuit of technology, which allowed us to maintain our existence throughout the Sino-German war which lasted for a millennium, starting around 1000 ad and signing a peace accord in 2000 precisely. There would be intermittent wars with the Zulu, however because of... whatever they were doing, they never really came to bother us until they got a deep water navy and started doing naval assaults on our cities. Eventually we got Cruisers and sunk their galleons, preventing them from ever being more than a nuisance again.

All while this was going on, the Japanese were also rushing towards a technology victory, always several techs ahead of us. When we got fighters, they had started building up bomber squadrons ready to end our existence if we ever thought to challenge their tech victory. In the year 2000, we had beaten them to The Nuclear Bomb, only one in game, and in 2002, it was launched on their second largest city (since you can't obliterate capitals into a smoking black hole). Strangely, this did NOT lead to war. But whatever. After this anti-climatic launch, and 11 hours of defending China, I went to home to bed, and my friend finished the game off later. Not sure how it concluded. Overall, while it may not look quite like it's fun, I would definitely recommend renting it. Nobody reserved a copy, including my friend, I presume no one expected it to do well. But at least considering how many shops and how long we had to wait to find a copy in stores, the entire Puget sound area from Seattle to Bellingham was sold out the first couple days. It may be Civ-Lite, but I personally don't consider that a detriment to the game. It's reduction in scope, while admittedly I do regret, is more than made up for by the re-evaluation of all aspects of the series and the general improvements in function.

[105mm Howitzer]

Only beef about Civ Rev is that it's not for the PSP. However, they had the gall to bring it out for the DS..I mean, come on.

[RedArgo]

I actually picked it up for the DS. I'd agree with the others, it is simplier and faster that Civ4, but still enjoyable. I don't know why, but I expected the AI to be weak being on a handheld. I have been pleasantly suprised and in three games I haven't beaten the third level. It's nice to be able to carry the game around or play while on the stationary bike.

I do wonder about their choice of platforms. No Wii or PSP. Seems like those would open it up to a lot more gamers, but maybe it's to much work for the return.

Bill

[Veldor]

One helpful tip to would-be purchasers looking in sold-out stores... In some stores (At least one Best Buy Included) its not filed under "Civ" its under the S's for "Sid" [;)]

They initially told me they had already sold out after looking under "C"...[:-]

Regarding the A.I. I am quite pleased so far. Like many similar games it does depend a little bit on your starting position and neighbors but overall the A.I. seems pretty darn good within the confines of this versions features and ruleset...

I personally chickened out on the PS3 version in favor of the 360 version for the typical reasons...
1. More online players on XBOX 360 / Better Online Experience
2. Achievements Achievements Achievements (And likely the first game I can actually get 50/50 on)
3. Rumbler Support (Launched my First ICBM Last Night).
4. Still too lazy to buy a headset for my PS3 since my 360 came with a free one for it.
5. Downloadable Content is always better on XBOX 360 and doesn't have to be installed like on PS3
6. Blu-ray Games are only really needed for PS3 exclusive titles anyway.

Hope I don't regret the choice. I chose the 360 version of COD4 for similar reasons and then everyone I knew proceeded to buy the PS3 version. Can't seem to win on that aspect.

Any 360 players want to setup an online game???

[Zakhal]

I dont think I can handle another civ after civ 4 complete. Now as for new colonization though...

[Gem35]

ORIGINAL: pasternakski

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Why I applaud Sid here is because instead of doing what pretty much all others do by adding yet another level of complexity on top of the beast that is CIV4..

I don't quite understand this remark. Forgive me if I sound like just another stupid fifth-grader. Who is the dastardly villain who has been adding levels of complexity on top of the beast that is CIV4?

He instead truly tried to reinvent the game...

Are you certain that Sid Meier is all that involved with these games anymore? The impression I have gotten is that his name is used for marketing, and he pretty much goes about his own business, which is not game design anymore.

...and bring it to an entirely new audience.

Well, maybe this is the game for me after all, seeing as how I had no attraction for CIV4 at all. Tried it. Hated it.

He could have done a lousy port of CIV3 or CIV4 or even a redesign inside of those parameters...

But no, he relooked at every single aspect, left a few intact but changed many many others. I suppose in the end it still plays like a CIV game. But its now one you might actually call fun and have a real ability to play and finish against other real people.

Thank you Sid for breaking the mold...

Thank you, Veldor, for pointing us in the direction of this game. If not for you, I would never even have considered it.

[:D]

I personally like Civ III, played civ 4 and it was ok, looked pretty though.
If this game is dumbed down, it would be boring for me, I love micro-management.

[gunny]

The average PSP Xbox 2 player would never tolerate the delay between turn phases as it was in Civ 4. Especially on a huge map with 10 civs .I'm sure for marketing reasons they needed the game to flow better. We strategy gamers tolerate turn phases, as we are a patient lot. But the GTA generation would never be ready for the vanilla civ 4.

[Adam Parker]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

The wargame world may have finally finally come full circle back to where we started. When the likes of Blitzkrieg was considered a plenty fine and complicated game.

Agree completely with this sentiment.

It's what's keeping me away from Birth of America 2. As soon as they said better is bigger, they lost me.

[Grell]

My eldest son wants this game. He hates TBS games but he did like fantasy wars.

Regards,

Greg

[Sarganto]

Errr....now I have to finally dig out Civ 2 one more time >_<

And a comment about Civ Rev:
I think it's finde for handhelds, but I certainly wouldn't buy it for the XBOX oder PS3. I always played games like this on the pc and as First Person Shooters, they should remain on the pc.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Sarganto

Errr....now I have to finally dig out Civ 2 one more time >_<

And a comment about Civ Rev:
I think it's finde for handhelds, but I certainly wouldn't buy it for the XBOX oder PS3. I always played games like this on the pc and as First Person Shooters, they should remain on the pc.

Just a quick comment on this. I think for most PC games I'd 100% agree. I tried playing the XBOX version of the latest Command & Conquer and just felt stupid trying to select units and what-not. But this Civ game wasn't ported it was designed from the ground up for the console. The controls and everything like that feel perfectly normal and in place for console gamers.

It is exactly why it is so good. Nobody cheaped out on this one. It was a genuinely true major effort.

Some say the same thing about shooters... you have to use a mouse and thus the PC. And that certainly feels true as a PC User the first time you pick up a ps3 controller etc. But if you start the other way, or otherwise acquire the nack, the actual optimum controlling device is in fact the console controller, and not the mouse, for a shooter. (Bad ports aside)

[Sarganto]

ORIGINAL: Veldor

ORIGINAL: Sarganto

Errr....now I have to finally dig out Civ 2 one more time >_<

And a comment about Civ Rev:
I think it's finde for handhelds, but I certainly wouldn't buy it for the XBOX oder PS3. I always played games like this on the pc and as First Person Shooters, they should remain on the pc.

Just a quick comment on this. I think for most PC games I'd 100% agree. I tried playing the XBOX version of the latest Command & Conquer and just felt stupid trying to select units and what-not. But this Civ game wasn't ported it was designed from the ground up for the console. The controls and everything like that feel perfectly normal and in place for console gamers.

It is exactly why it is so good. Nobody cheaped out on this one. It was a genuinely true major effort.

Some say the same thing about shooters... you have to use a mouse and thus the PC. And that certainly feels true as a PC User the first time you pick up a ps3 controller etc. But if you start the other way, or otherwise acquire the nack, the actual optimum controlling device is in fact the console controller, and not the mouse, for a shooter. (Bad ports aside)

And that's why lot of shooters for consoles have guided aiming or help you a lot with aiming. Aiming with a controller is not nearly as accurate as with the mouse. You can tell me all day, that it is, but I will still say it's not. Because that's fact. ^^
You're facing too many restrictions with your controller. You can't move in the exact speed you want to...and so on.

And to Civ: I see no reason, to play the simple version on a console, when I can have a more comfortable version on my pc. Not even more complex, but there's still a difference.

Anyway, I still think it's a good idea for the DS or the PSP.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: Sarganto
And that's why lot of shooters for consoles have guided aiming or help you a lot with aiming. Aiming with a controller is not nearly as accurate as with the mouse. You can tell me all day, that it is, but I will still say it's not. Because that's fact. ^^

It would seem as if you've not played any modern console big name shooter then. I do know the games you are referring to but those are mostly ancient ports. But to take the point a slightly different direction a console controller has two joysticks... One for aiming and one for moving. You cant achieve the same coordination of move and aim with a keyboard and mouse. The keyboard is much more limited. It is very hard for newbies to do this in most console games. In fact it makes some people sick until they get the knack, if ever. Once you do its a thing of beauty and way more natural than having one hand each in a different place. Speed has control its based on how far you lean the joystick and has 360 degrees worth of directions not just 4 or 8.

Another neat console shooter is Metroid Prime on the Wii. Since you aim with the Wiimote in your right and the joystick nunchuck is in your left its also more natural.

Its more a question of what your use to. As long as the strengths of each are leveraged in the design the game will be fine. I find having 4 triggers easier than dealing with scroll wheels and right mouse buttons to choose/fire additional weapons. Trying to position your other hand so you can press the right keys on the keyboard is hardly easier either.

My only point here was to say that Civilization Revolution could have been awful if all of the above were ignored. But they did it right like every other part and it plays fine on the console as if every strategy game is and should be made for it. There is nothing unnatural feeling about the way the controls work.

And to Civ: I see no reason, to play the simple version on a console, when I can have a more comfortable version on my pc. Not even more complex, but there's still a difference.

Elaborate on more comfortable? Its more comfortable sitting on my couch and playing on a monster HD screen with surround sound. Plus, for the non closet types, you can actually easily meet, play, and finish a game online without anyone dropping out or having to wait for everyone to meet up again to continue playing. That alone would be reason for many to consider this version.

[Vyshka]

I think the fanatics are overreacting unless it was marketed as what they wanted, which I don't think it was. If they want to get upset with Firaxis it should be for trying to promote Sid Meier's Railroads as the return of Railroad Tycoon to the fold. Possibly a fun game in it's own right, but no connection to the original other than the fact that both involved trains.

Re: Sid and design. I think he still takes part to some extent and still works on his own ideas/prototypes, but the major design work for a long time has been lead by others some of whom have moved on to start other companies such as Bruce Shelley, and Brian Reynolds.