What was the most pivotal battle of WW2?

[mjk428]

It's absolutely true that the codebreakers made Midway possible. However, aviators still had to get through the defenses of 4 CV's to deliver the blows. Knowing what to do and doing it are two different things. It all came together and the result was truly pivotal. Again, kudos to the codebreakers for making it possible.

mjk428

[Hades]

Along the lines of code breaking what about the capture of the Enigma machine in the Alantic? I think that was just as important.

[Vincent Prochelo]

Originally posted by KG Erwin
...since there were so many, but I'll focus on Hitler's decision to launch Operation Barbarossa. He irrevocably commited Germany to a two-front war, and with the benefit of hindsight, sealed the Third Reich's doom.

But the whole reason Hitler went to war was to attack and defeat the Soviet Union.

Hitler's To-Do List circa 1938:

1. Get the Jews
2. Revenge Versailles
3. Lebensraum

[KG Erwin]

You can't beat this one--the Allies (the Poles, to be exact) getting possession of an Enigma machine, and breaking this previously unbreakable code. This led to the failure of the Malta operations, and many of the North African battles. Pivotal--breaking Enigma should be near the top of the list.

[KG Erwin]

...to the prosecution of a war cannot be emphasized strongly enough in the war against the Muslim terrorists.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

KG please remember this is about the most pivotal battle of WW2.

That said, I highly doubt you will fault me on asking everyone from refraining on making any comment outside the confines of WW2.

That includes logically, the current politics of the moment. Not to mention potentially flash fire comments inluding terms of a racial or religious context.

[Brigz]

Interesting that some of us are talking about Ultra and Enigma as if they were two different things. Been a while since I've read on this, but if I remember correctly, Ultra was the Allied codename for intepretation, duplication, and siezure of Enigma codes and devices. I was positive I had a book about Ultra around here somewhere, but I can't seem to find it, so I'm just pulling things out of memory. Am I correct about this?

What I find most interesting about the Allied ability to break the German codes is that they couldn't act on everything they intercepted or the German's would catch on. It's fascinating just to think about the decision making process on when and how often to use the information.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

My own knowledge is a bit shaky but I think Ultra was the code name for the German enigma machine based intercepts.

But yes they had to be danged careful how they used the knowledge lest they blow the secret that they had that option at all.

[msaario]

Correct if I am wrong, but didn't the US hit the jackpot at Midway due to the local circumstances and not the code breaking efforts? This all comes from my feeble memory, but the Japanese were switching from bombs (destined for Midway) to torpedoes (they just discovered the US carriers) and the CAP was who knows where (refueling? loitering someplace?) as the American air power struck them? So, the US airmen didn't know beforehand that they were going to surprise the Japs with their pants down...

The Kursk was a disaster for the Germans, because they:
a) Had a spy in their high command leaking the information to the Russians.
b) They were so incredibly stubborn and blind when continuing the attack even though it should have been quite clear after hitting the endless lines of defences that they were pushing hard into the biggest ambush ever created.

Had the Germans conquered Egypt and then Arab oil, they would have been even more overstreched with their supply lines and more dispersed with their troops when the Allied started to attack their back in the western Mediterranean.

You can find dozens of pivotal battles of WWII, but to name just one... maybe Stalingrad. It ended the German advance in Russia, which was the deciding front of WWII, thus giving the advantage to the Russians. Had the Germans had the millions of battle-hardened men and tens of thousands of tanks and planes they lost in the east available to meet the D-Day, well, you can imagine the outcome.

--Mikko

[Gary Tatro]

The dropping of THE BOMB. Not a battle but in the Pacific theater I would say it qualifies as the most Pivotal Point in the War.

It always supprises me that I live in the only Country in the World that has used a Nuclear Weapon against other Human Beings.

[rosary]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro
The dropping of THE BOMB. Not a battle but in the Pacific theater I would say it qualifies as the most Pivotal Point in the War.

It always supprises me that I live in the only Country in the World that has used a Nuclear Weapon against other Human Beings.

Hopefully, it will remain that way forever.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Well the circumstances "during" the battle of Midway were of course fortuitous. But remember the yanks had dang near everything shot down till the Dauntless's showed up. By which time the CAP was all down at sea level.

That the Japanese were fussing over bombs or torpedoes was pof course wretched bad luck on their part.

Put the Yanks would not have even been ready for that battle if they had not specifically been tipped off my code breaking intercepts.

No intercepts and you can just assume Midway would have been toast and the carriers would have been elsewhere and not even available initially if at all.

As for Kursk, yep it was soooooo obvious in hindsight, and one wonders how they missed the fact that there plans seemed blown for secrecy.

As for the Germans capturing the Canal remember that was a long way off from Torch eh. And Rommel was doing what he did with almost nothing. No canal would mean no mediteranean as I envisioned with the loss of Malta. And don't think for a second that Torch would be going far with the entire Italian navy blocking the straits of Gibraltar along with whatever military forces they wished to dedicate to that end.

The Middle east would become just a lot of worthless desert. No way to get reinforcements from India. Ialso think the Japanese would have enjoyed the assistance during late 41.

Over stretched?...quite the opposite, the Axis would have almost no need to garrison the Med at all. Those forces would just be yet more forces to be used elsewhere.

Precisely why I think Malta will always be the most under appreciated good pice of luck on the part of the allies.
It produced ripples throughout the entire war at that time.

[Fallschirmjager]

This ones easy.

Moscow and/or Stalingrad

If either had been won by the Germans then the East front would of been won.
The 85% of German forces tied up there would of been moved and the rest of Europe would of fallen under German rule.

[rosary]

Originally posted by Fallschirmjager
This ones easy.

Moscow and/or Stalingrad

If either had been won by the Germans then the East front would of been won.
The 85% of German forces tied up there would of been moved and the rest of Europe would of fallen under German rule.

Are you suggesting that German rule would have been worse than Russian rule? That's a choice that isn't exactly easy to make. Stalin or Hitler?
Geez! Spare me this choice.

[Fallschirmjager]

Are you suggesting that German rule would have been worse than Russian rule? That's a choice that isn't exactly easy to make. Stalin or Hitler?

Im afraid I dont understand.

I never suggested that I wanted the Germans to win

He asked what was the most important based on historical outcome.

I answered and then stated what would of happened had one or both of those battles come out differently.

Lets face it if the Americans, Free French, poles and brits (and those they shangheied into figthing for them) had faced the German army at 100% (i.e. not activly fighting or having already won on the east front) then only a crazy man would of said that they could of won.

If im correct the Germans had roughly 85% of their army tied up at any given time in the East.

[VictorH]

Think about this. maybe the most decisive battle of the war was Italy's disatrous invasion of Greece. The Germans had to delay Barbarossa to take Yougslavia and save Greece. Just think, the extra month Hitler burned by sending Guderian running to save AG South may not have been as decisive in they had had the extra month burned to save the Italians in the balkans/Greece.

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Yep Fallschirmjager is not pro German I can see that (as can anyone not obsessed with mindless anti commie thinking)

He is merely pointing out a view that smells pro Russian in viewpoint. The Russians did more to help the allies win the war from a numerical stand point.

Try any simulation where the Russians are not involved beating the snot out of the German army, the result is ALWAYS the same, the allies get crushed brutally soundly and totally.
If not for the Russians doing incredible destruction to the German war machine, we would al be living in a world determined by a Nazi victory.

When I play A3R (Advanced Third Reich), and I achieve a diplomatic or military situation where the Russians are removed prior to US entry, I as the Allies call that check mate against me or as the Axis checkmate in my favour. To continue the game is merely an exercise in "how much effort do you wish to waste finding out what we already know?"

US industry would not amount to a **** thing under those conditions.
Remember Hitler was ideologically capable of the most horrific decisions.
He was on the doorstep of jet power and nuclear power in spite of being constantly bombed from the air.
If the war had proceeded for 2 more years, it would have been a simple matter to see him level New York city as a way of convincing Washington that Europe belonged to Germany.
And that was while he was actually fighting the Russians.
With no Russians, he would not only be able make any beach look like Omaha, but he would be able to flatten any spot he desired.

But I lived through the cold war where it was just not acceptable to say anythin pro Russian in viewpoint, including making statements that state their participation in WW2 was vital.
The Battle of Kursk alone saw more manpower involved than existed in the allied forces in total.

It is merely important to note, that the Russian way of doing anything, invariably involved no subtlety. They are likely responsible for more of their own deaths through their own decisions, than the Germans were in some ways. Stalin was one heck of a monster. He gets my vote for being histories most efficient butcher.

Also as Victor mentions, Il Duce's mangled attack on Greece likely cost Germany the war. for lack of a month, they might have lost the war. That qualifies as pivotal in my books.

In most games I have played, it's the darn winter conditions, that ruin my chances of forcing a decision in favour of Germany.

But to try and win a game as the German side hardly makes me in favour of the German result.

Remember people, this thread is about pivotal battles and their potential outcomes. It has nothing to do with our preferences of one outcome or another.

[screamer]

what does pivotal mean??

[Fallschirmjager]

Id have to disagree with you victor.

Ive read acounts of German soldiers writing in their diaries from late June and they commented on how from talking to Russian Pow's that the Russian mud had only recently dried up.

A panzer in 3 foot deep mud works about as well as in the snow.

In 1942 (after Germans got accustomed to the snow) Panzer leaders would actually greet the frezzinbg weather with open arms. In the fall (and spring for that matter) it will snow then melt casuing plenty of mud. When the hard freezing occurs the mud forms a hard layer prefect for driving on with tracks. The winter only sucked if you were in the infantry. I guess that the importance of scoring well on your Third Reich Heer Apptitude Test™

If weather condtions had been exactly right a month might of meant something.

But if weather conditions hadnt been exactly right for the Germans the battle of the bulge would of been realitivly minor.


Btw pivotal mean something of great importance
In this case a pivotal battle might of changed the entire war had it come out differently.

[Vincent Prochelo]

Originally posted by Gary Tatro
The dropping of THE BOMB. Not a battle but in the Pacific theater I would say it qualifies as the most Pivotal Point in the War.

Maybe the most pivotal moment of the 20th century, but not the most pivotal battle.

Japan was already defeated, it was just a matter of time and blood.

This is like saying the Battle of Berlin was the most pivotal battle in the ETO. It wasn't because Germany was defeated no matter if the Soviets took another 3 monthsd to win the capital.

It always supprises me that I live in the only Country in the World that has used a Nuclear Weapon against other Human Beings.

It had to be done.