Submarines and targets

[Paul Goodman]

The U.S. Navy submarine service has a favorite expression. "There are only two kinds of ships, submarines and targets." Clearly, Mr. Grigsby believes this, also.

In playing Yamamoto's Prophecy, I (playing U.S. against AI) have aggressively gone after all submarine contacts, typically with TF's of from 4 to 6 destroyers. Sometimes I have had as many as four TF's in a hex after one sub. The results so far (now Dec '42) are rather odd, I think. I have had one light cruiser and 15 destroyers torpedoed, with five destroyers sunk. Against this, only two subs have been sunk. Generally, the submarine is not even detected. Additionally, I have had as many as 100 B-17 and B-24 aircraft on ASW, with no results.

A destroyer is very difficult for a submarine to torpedo. Destroyers kill submarines, not vice versa. Japanese submarines, although long-ranged and carrying excellent torpedoes, were not well equipped to deal with destroyers. Their large size made them noisy and they were an excellent sonar target. Furthermore, they could only dive to around two hundred feet. They are VERY vulnerable, much more so than a U-boat.

I think it would be fair to say that the results I have seen suggest that the submarine has too much of an advantage, is too hard to detect. Additionally, perhaps task forces consisting of destroyers and subchasers could be designated as ASW TF's and given some advantage in detection, vs. a typical escort function.

Paul

[Erik Rutins]

Paul,

Thanks for your feedback and test results. Was this with 1.10 or with 1.00?

Regards,

- Erik

[Paul Goodman]

This was all with 1.00 (how fast do you think I can play?)

Did 1.10 change anything re this subject?

By the way, 1.10 is absolutely awesome. Got the subwoofer cranked!!!

Paul

[Raverdave]

Paul,

I agree with you....hunting Jap subs is very costly.....and to add insult to injury, the sneeky little subs don't even waste torps on the SC's. They just surface and shoot them !

[bradfordkay]

Well, in v1.00 a lot of the US destroyers did not have depth cahrge racks installed - that has been fixed in v1.10.

I do like the idea of creating an ASW task group. I've been doing it with no luck in v1.00 (sub chasers only in a surface combat TF), but haven't yet had enough gameplay to see if there's any improvement.

[FAdmiral]

But then put the shoe on the other foot, my American subs seem
to shoot at everything and get very few hits. They also got killed
every time before the new patch that made the DCs more realistic
from the enemy DDs. Now for the jap subs, I declare they never
seem to miss anything. And when my DDs or any ship carrying DCs attack them back, no dice. Also when my subs attack on the
surface, the AP sometimes shoots back and they never seem to miss either. Of couse, my sub just sits there on the surface & takes the damage. In SH2, I ALWAYS dived when coming under
fire while on the surface. My captains just don't seem to be that
smart.

JIM BERG, SR.

[kaleun]

I have had several groups of SCs, DDs and PGs, and combinations thereof chasing several subs on the south coast of Noumea. The results are that I am almost out of SCs. All PGs gone, and have lost 5 DDs. The Japanese navy lost one sub, with several others damaged. My PBYs and Beaforts(set to ASW at 100 ft) occasionally see the subs, but have attacked only once. Their fatigue is going through the roof, and the japanese subs rack up kill after kill.
I am now trying to mine the hell out of the area, but the subs tend to stay out of the shallow hexes anyway.

[FAdmiral]

In one scenario, I did mine the heck out the shallow water on
both sides of Noumea with my subs & minelaying ships. I had
3 Jap subs finally hit mines. After that they seemed to leave
the area and not return.

JIM BERG, SR.

[Paul Goodman]

Well, with the shoe on the other foot, we all know the U.S. torpedoes were flawed. What I see is that others are having a similar situation vs. the Japanese subs. Yes, the U.S. crews were green, but where did the Japanese subs get all this experience. Torpedoing Chinese junks? I think the game is skewed in favor of the submarine (both Japanese and U.S., as will be seen later). PacWar was the same way.

By the way, it is interesting in view of the quality of U.S. weapons in the modern era, the Mk whatever with the magnetic detonator was fired exactly twice in testing prior to Pearl Harbor. One worked, one didn't. Good Enough! It was accepted and off to war we go.

[juliet7bravo]

Subs, in general (in UV) have the durability of a hvy CA, are more manueverable than most DD's or patrol boats, and can outgun, outrun, out-manuever, and out-last probably all the patrol boats on the surface.

With a durability rating of 33 (6-10 for DD's, 1-2 for PC's/SC's/PG's) anything but numerous major calibre gun hits are nothing but flea bites...especially when a sub can survive and self-repair damage levels in the 90's. I watched an IJN sub with a durability of 33 eat 4 x 500lbs bomb hits on consecutive turns during testing, and survive with sustainable damage until the 4th hit. In you play in "head to head" mode, and watch both sides, it's amazing how many subs will be nested close to major bases with large ASW air patrols who are never spotted...subs in deep water are virtually invisible.

IJN subs on "non-historic" doctrine are a horrible (brrrrr) sight to watch.

Reccomendations; (1) Each side should have an ASW modifier, ie. the Allies should get a bonus reflecting ASW lessons learned, superior equipment, and superior doctrine based on years of fighting U-boats prior. (2) Scale back the sub durability ratings in general. (3) Each ship crew should have a separate ASW exp. rating. (4) Above a certain damage level subs should lose their "stealth" ability, ie. be unable to submerge, and be more easily spotted/hit.

[kaleun]

Hear Hear.
In reality many subs would have to return to base to repair battle damage. The small size of the submarine made it difficult, if not impossible for majior repairs to occur. Also damage to "belt armor" (pressure hull?) would definitely impede submergence, unless it was of the permanent type.

K

[Jamey]

I've seen similar stuff. I am playing as Japanese in a PBEM and the US subs are eating me alive. I am losing numerous minesweepers, PCs, and PGs to sub attacks. The US subs seem to be able to hit my PC and PG craft easily with torpedoes. To me, hitting these small, shallow-draft ships would be a LOT harder.

But what is even more strange is the number of times US subs have surfaced and attacked my PCs and PGs with gunfire. Now, in all of my reading of US sub operations, I have never come across this. Even if a sub had a decent chance of sinking one of these ships, they still would not do this. The reason was that they could not take a chance that a hit by the enemy would put a hole in their hull and not allow them to dive. Even if they would win this individual battle, a sub deep in enemy waters that could not dive was a sitting duck!

I've seen this in both the original and patched versions.

[Yamamoto]

After carriers, my favorite type of ship in a naval game is the submarine. I like seeing my subs sink ships and I like the effort I need to put into avoiding enemy subs. Subs are slow and the best way to defeat them is simply to avoid them. I don’t waste 4-6 DDs in a hunter-killer task force trying to sink subs. Those ships would be much better off escorting my merchant ships. I have had several of my search planes hit enemy subs. It doesn’t happen often, but it does happen. When my subs get hit with even a single depth charge, they usually sink within a day or two.

Yamamoto

[brisd]

I started a new campaign scenario 19 as Allies on Saturday with the new patch. I spotted two IJN subs in the islands just a few hexes north of Noumea so I sent two DMS, which are equipped with depth charges, in a TF to patrol that hex. The sub sank both DMS's without a reply in turn, last time I will do that! Some results of note in this new game: when my S-class subs attack, they are often sunk by the ASW forces if present, even in deep water. I have seen IJN PC's kill an S-class for example. I even had an IJN AP fire back at a sub attacking it on the surface and score several 3" gun hits. I have had reports of both Catalinas and Hudson's on ASW ops near Noumea attack subs, including report of one hit. This is all on a setting of HARD for AI, so the results are tilted in its favor. I am very satisfied so far with the new patch! - well, except for the bombardment/retirement allowed screwup! :p

[Diealtekoenig]

"The U.S. Navy submarine service has a favorite expression. "There are only two kinds of ships, submarines and targets." Clearly, Mr. Grigsby believes this, also. "

Heheheh. In ASW (modern) the statement is "There are no friendly submarines. Some submarines are built by our country and some submarines are built by enemy countries but there are no friendly submarines"

Hence ASW zones are divided into surface ASW (surface ships can shoot at any undersea contact) and submarine ASW zones (a US submarine is out there so no US surface ships will shoot at submarine contacts in that zone (any submarines there are the responsibility of the US submarine to handle)

[FAdmiral]

When my Gato class sub attacked a Jap Carrier Force just
SW of Lunga, it fired 6 torps at a carrier. All missed and my
sub sure took a pasting. (42 sys,67flot. damage) Needless
to say, I had to return for reapirs. I sure wish we had a tactical
drop-to game like SH2 to command our own subs. Just for my
pleasure, I set up a Silent Hunter 2 scenario to model the
same conditions of that battle. I faired much better, sinking
the Shoho and damaging one of the larger carriers with a 2
torp hit. The DD's really came after me with a vengance but
I managed to avoid all the DC's dropped on me. I sure wish
I could command all my subs and probably the surface ships
too. I would need "Destroyer Command" to do the job right.
My Motto: Never let the AI do a Humans job, they suck !!!!!

JIM BERG, SR.

[Paul Goodman]

Juliet7bravo: Well, you sure answered my question of why our august group of beta testers didn't catch so obvious a pro sub bias. They did, you did! And you got shot down, right?

Yamamoto: Your strategy of avoidance is the correct one, obviously. Unfortunately, it shouldn't be that way. The real problem is that the subs eventially show up right in the plot path from New Caledonia (screw Noumea, it's New Caledonia) to Guadalcanal. Ditto for Milne Bay (right, screw Gili Gili). To avoid these trouble spots, you must plot to a hex and then to the base, which generally adds a day to the trip, to say nothing of the nuisance.

I really think something should be done. Probably should have suspected something funky about the subs right from the start.

Paul

[Spooky]

Originally posted by Paul Goodman
Juliet7bravo: Well, you sure answered my question of why our august group of beta testers didn't catch so obvious a pro sub bias. They did, you did! And you got shot down, right?

Yamamoto: Your strategy of avoidance is the correct one, obviously. Unfortunately, it shouldn't be that way. The real problem is that the subs eventially show up right in the plot path from New Caledonia (screw Noumea, it's New Caledonia) to Guadalcanal. Ditto for Milne Bay (right, screw Gili Gili). To avoid these trouble spots, you must plot to a hex and then to the base, which generally adds a day to the trip, to say nothing of the nuisance.

I really think something should be done. Probably should have suspected something funky about the subs right from the start.

Paul

What do you mean exactly ? Do you want some kind of way points for the TF moves (in order to skip Sub-infested hex) ?

[mjk428]

I can accept how effective the IJN subs are at killing ships. It's harder for me to accept how ineffective my aircraft are at getting them. I have had well over 100 planes dedicated to ASW around their favorite hunting grounds (alt 1000 ft - exp 60-80) and have NEVER hit one. The best I can do is spot them. I hope that at least intimidates them.

Pre-patch I was able to eliminate them with packs of DD's & SC's (10 each). This tactic has only gotten me 2 subs post patch. This may be the result of the AI spreading them around much better instead of sending them all to Noumea. I've lost fewer subs post-patch as well. Don't know if all this is simply the luck of the draw and I realize this may be completely realistic results.
Just 1 PBY scratching one would make me believe it's not all been a waste of resources. I've have seen posts saying it's possible but I'd like to see it for myself.

mjk428

[Paul Goodman]

Spooky: I didn't actually have anything in mind. I would like to go after the sub with ASW TF's and kill it. However, that's a great idea. Certainly that's what they did with Atlantic Convoys. The TF path to a destination would simply avoid any hex in which sub had been detected the previous turn. No need to do waypoints, just build avoidance in the code.

That still doesn't solve the problem of the submarine having been intentionally defined as some form of superweapon.

Paul