Copy protection/DRM

[Lützow]

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

Its not just big game companies but small ones have started to use licensing too. I.E all battlefront games are licenced. I dont think you can rent them from anywhere.

True. But on the other hand they didn't release anything good beyond CM 3. So it's no big loss for me.

There are still some indie companies around which actually deserve to get their titles purchased. Battlefront however are not among them anymore in my opinion. CM:Shockforce was bland and TOW rather abysmal.

[NefariousKoel]

ORIGINAL: Zakhal

ORIGINAL: NefariousKoel
Yep, I was thinking of buying Mass Effect recently and didn't for the activation system on it. Lost sale there, guys.

The recent mass effect patch broke the game entirely btw. FPS drop to 10. Many gamers are reporting the whole game unplayable.

Glad I didn't buy, then. We can't rent PC games here in the states so trying before buying is solely up to demos, if there even is one. And those aren't always very representative.

[Peter Fisla]

ORIGINAL: sabre100

In other words:  "THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS"  another reason why I buy Matrix games.  They rock and treat their customers with respect and as loyal customers and do not use whacky and intrusive DRM like many developers do.

Exactly, I agree 100%

[StormcloudCreations]

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.

[Veldor]

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.

And then there were some you had to hold a red film over to read a symbol, word or whatever so as to prevent people from merely zeroxing manuals...

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations
Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.

Starforce is a virus as defined by our laws regarding malicious software. It gets installed without you asking for it and tampers with other software on your system. Sueing Russian maffiosi might not have been high on the list of our local equivalent of the DA, but that doesn't make it any less criminal.

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[JudgeDredd]

I don't know how oyu worked the music industry one out, Eddie...I think the music industry is one of the most inward looking "screw our customers over time and again" industries out there!

You know, I can't even have the radio on at work. Know why? Because the company hasn't paid royalties to the music industry...something like £500pa. And the reason I can't play it? Some rubbish about making it enjoyable to work there, ergo the company are making out of it, ergo the music industry wants it's share....even though public radio has been paid for by the radio stations. The fact that I'm at work there because I like it, the people are nice, the work is good and I get paid well has bugger all to do with it.

The music industry is right up it's own arse.

Oh, and by the same law used to stop me listening to the radio at work, the potential is there to haul my arse into court because I was playing music loud enough in my car for other people to hear...public performance. Ridiculous.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd
I don't know how oyu worked the music industry one out, Eddie...I think the music industry is one of the most inward looking "screw our customers over time and again" industries out there!

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ ... 398775.htm

"Sony BMG would become the last of the top four music labels to drop DRM, following Warner Music Group (WMG), which in late December said it would sell DRM-free songs through Amazon.com's (AMZN) digital music store. EMI and Vivendi's Universal Music Group announced their plans for DRM-free downloads earlier in 2007."

"The impetus to lift copyright protection represents a sea change for the recording industry, which for the better part of a decade has used DRM to guard against what it considers illegal distribution and duplication of songs purchased online. In abandoning DRM on à la carte song purchases, the labels could create a raft of new, less restrictive ways of selling music over the Internet"

In non-businessweek speech here's the timeline :

1) Music industry employs DRM
2) Customers find out they're getting screwed and stop buying music
3) Music industry has no other option but to abandon DRM and finds out to their amazement sales pick up again - who'd have thunked ? [;)]

Capitalism works - the game industry is slowly entering phaze 2 of the timeline above, the real smart publishers are already in phaze 3 (or never left it in the first place)

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[orwell]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

A nice example is the last game released by Matrix : World War 2 - Road to Victory. It's also available from GamersGate for 1 dollar less than here. Wouldn't you gladly pay the extra dollar if it made sure that you could re-install your game in the future without having to ask permission from some server, which may still be up or not, first ?

I couldn't speak for all games on Gamersgate, but it's ridiculously easy to install, patch game, and put the game folder on a disc or flash drive for every Paradox Interactive game I've tried, including their latest titles.

[JudgeDredd]

Orwell, I use Gamersgate also for titles I can't get elsewhere. However, I see Eddies point. There is no guarantee the servers will be around in the future.
 
Also, I've looked at what Gamersgate downloads onto your drive...have you ever tried to reinstall from those downloads? I couldn't see how...ended up deleting the directory and downloading again. Can't remember what title it was...I think it was Combat Mission: Shock Force

[Krasny]

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.

Never a truer word spoken.

I would go even further by saying that the music industry is killing music, by constantly spewing forth manufactured drivel.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: orwell
I couldn't speak for all games on Gamersgate, but it's ridiculously easy to install, patch game, and put the game folder on a disc or flash drive for every Paradox Interactive game I've tried, including their latest titles.

Here's a very easy test : take your backup and try to install it on a computer which has no internet access. If it works, you've bought a game, if it doesn't you've clearly rented one for as long as the publisher's activation server is up.

I like to own the stuff I pay for.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: Krasny

It's pretty simple people : stop buying DRM'ed software and they'll give in. Look at what happened in the music industry : All major publishers now have DRM-free music, because consumers just stopped buying the DRM infected songs.

Never a truer word spoken.

I would go even further by saying that the music industry is killing music, by constantly spewing forth manufactured drivel.

I wouldn't dispute your last, but your analogy regarding DRM is incorrect. The reason people got so pissed with DRM in music (the honest ones, anyway) was lack of inter-operability. Not unreasonably, the general consensus was that if you paid for it (once) you should be able to do what you like with it, i.e. if you paid it on iTunes you should be able to store on a HD, burn to a disk or DVD, play it on your non-iPod music player or move it to a future format. With PC software the same doesn't apply as it only works with one piece of kit - a PC. The publisher, and hence their server, going tits-up is a different issue.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: Hertston
With PC software the same doesn't apply as it only works with one piece of kit - a PC. The publisher, and hence their server, going tits-up is a different issue.

Yes and no - you do want to install that game on another piece of kit : your new pc after the previous one died or after an upgrade. It's then you find out DRM is not such a good idea after all.

For a very recent example :

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77890

Do you think that guy has learned his lesson now ?

And for every guy like that who's learning it the hard way there are dozens who read that thread and get the message as well. So, ok, DRM in the music world is not 100% comparable to what's happening in the gaming world, but I think we'll see the same evolution here.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

Yes and no - you do want to install that game on another piece of kit : your new pc after the previous one died or after an upgrade. It's then you find out DRM is not such a good idea after all.

And, as I said in my first post on this subject that, doing exactly that with my Stardock games (GalCiv plus 2 and SoaSE) was an absolute breeze using their system. No problems with Gamersgate (the EU3, CK and Vicky expansions) either. It is not DRM or copy protection in general that is the problem, it is those systems that are poorly implemented with little or no thought for the honest purchaser that are the problem.

[Perturabo]

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

Also, there's a question of forced patches - sometimes there are patches that make a game less playable/less realistic or even more buggy.

Sounds like you're a Harpoon ANW player...

It's good to know that we don't suffer this problem alone. [;)]

I didn't play Harpoon ANW (I only "played" Harpoon Classic '97), but I've read about that patch and it made me aware that some patches can be unwanted. It and one indie cRPG game that I bought that had a patch which added some new features, but wasn't tested properly and crawled even on high end computers (the game had graphics like Baldur's Gate).

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's.

[X(][X(]

...

KILLLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![:@]

Ugh...
I remember them.
I still have a matt black & shiny black code book from Alien Breed: Tower Assault.
Also, Ultima VII was pretty bad with it. I bought a classic edition of it and couldn't finish it, because it didn't have all game manuals on CD...

Personally, I liked the Interplay's protection schemes from 1997-1998 the best. Fallout, Die By The Sword...
I installed them without writing any codes and still I have Fallout full install from 2006 that survived 3 Windows re-installations and doesn't require me to keep my CD in drive.

[Jeffrey H.]

ORIGINAL: StormcloudCreations

Hey copy protection used to be really bad...those of you that remember the "Page 7, 4th paragraph, 13th word" BS that invaded games of the 80's and early 90's. But that didn't install intrusive software shells onto people's systems. Starforce was a travesty and I would actively avoid any game that used it.

The one I remember always seemed to be a few words off.

[Obsolete]

While we are on that topic, sadly I found out the horrors last year when being forced to upgrade to Vista.  Many of my games won't work, even the newer ones.  I at first thought it was due to typical MS non-compatibility issues, but after many searches on help forums etc. I found out most the problems are due to copy protection issues.

It seems that a lot of copy protection systems are HARD-CODED to the OS.  So when you upgrade the OS, you are sh!t out of luck.  Sometimes, even having the same OS, but a newer patched version of that OS is enough to break the protection system and you are again sh!t out of luck.  So... the only way I've had any luck lately is by numerous visits to game-copy world and the like.  I must say, it's been quite an experience, but unfortuantely it takes time to try and figure ways around to get my own stuff out of the box to run!  If I have another 5 hours of time to waste, then maybe I can get my SCRAPLAND to install, but that time should be time playing, not figuring out how to crack my own games!

[orwell]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Orwell, I use Gamersgate also for titles I can't get elsewhere. However, I see Eddies point. There is no guarantee the servers will be around in the future.

Also, I've looked at what Gamersgate downloads onto your drive...have you ever tried to reinstall from those downloads? I couldn't see how...ended up deleting the directory and downloading again. Can't remember what title it was...I think it was Combat Mission: Shock Force

You know, I never have actually. After I've installed the game, I just make zips of the folder so I have a back up to try mods or modding with, and a back up in case anything goes wrong, or I want to migrate it to my other computer.

Sterckxe - by this definition, I've bought the game. I don't even need a cd-key to get it running if I ever want to play again. If I put this backup onto a flash drive, and put that onto a computer that meets the requirements, I can play the game on any computer wherever that meets the system requirements. I'm not installing or distributing it, because everything is self-contained on the flash drive I own.

[sterckxe]

ORIGINAL: orwell
If I put this backup onto a flash drive, and put that onto a computer that meets the requirements, I can play the game on any computer wherever that meets the system requirements.

A lot of "ifs" - have you ever tried it ?

You know - tomorrow your motherboard may burn and your HD might crash - I've never lost a game due to those (both things happened to me in the past) because I never buy DRM'ed software but you only have to read other forums to know how often this happens.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx