Yamato!!

Uncommon Valor: Campaign for the South Pacific covers the campaigns for New Guinea, New Britain, New Ireland and the Solomon chain.

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von Murrin
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Post by von Murrin »

Originally posted by Odin
2 Torpedos and 4 500lb bombs?

Not bad, must be very very lucky hits:-)

I need 3 days of attacks from my carriers to tell her to go home:D

But in real live i will say its impossible.
I think sometimes hits are unreported instead of exaggerated. I once had a 205 SBD, 76 TBF strike hit Yamato and 3 DD's (I surprised them on the way to Rabaul). They reported 1 (!) bomb hit on Yamato, but when the follow up strike hit, she was burning fiercely. She went down with 2 bomb and 1 torp hit reported. :rolleyes:

I was tearing my hair out in frustration until I got the message that she sank. :D
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Mark Hemns
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Post by Mark Hemns »

Some months ago I found "Requiem for Battleship Yamato" at my local library. The book was written by Yoshida Mitsuru who was an ensign (assistant radar officer) on the ship's bridge during it's last voyage.

His account of the doomed voyage and calm acceptance of their fate is quite extraordinary but very alien to my western mind.

Yamato was attacked by waves of US aircraft (300+) from Task Force 58. Although I cannot remember his tally of the exact number of times she was hit, I think it was with at least 5x1000lbs bombs and 10 torpedos.

2,498 of the ships company were lost.
entemedor
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Yamato

Post by entemedor »

The YAMATO escort was composed by light cruiser YAHAGI and 8 destroyers; of these, YAHAGI and destroyers HAMAKAZE, ISOKAZE, ASASHIMO and KASUMI were also sunk. YAMATO sank after receiving 5 bomb and 10 torpedo hits. Some of the YAMATO's rescued survivors died when the rescuing ships were sunk themselves, and of her crew 2,498 were finally lost. There were only 140 survivors. Her crew was usually over 3,000, but before leaving Kure on that last sortie commander Kosaku Ariga ordered all young cadets and ill sailors to be landed. Total loss of life for the entire force was 3,665. The US aircraft made 386 sorties against the YAMATO force, losing only 10 planes.

The battle order issued by the force commander, Vice-Admiral Siichi Ito, for this one-way trip, was: "All units will attack with full confidence on Divine aid".
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Post by Speedysteve »

Originally posted by Mark Hemns
Some months ago I found "Requiem for Battleship Yamato" at my local library. The book was written by Yoshida Mitsuru who was an ensign (assistant radar officer) on the ship's bridge during it's last voyage.

His account of the doomed voyage and calm acceptance of their fate is quite extraordinary but very alien to my western mind.

I agree a most interesting book since it gives the personal insight that is so rare in many books written about battles. Stuff like him describing his fellow sailors and their emotions and the blow-by-blow account of the action is most compelling.

Also someone asked earlier on how Force A got so close to Leyte and in the process sunk Gambier Bay and DD's Roberts and Johnston:

Well a fairly longish story, here is the short version. Oldendorf's force was covering the Surigao Strait to the south of Leyte which engaged Force C (destroying Fuso, Yamashiro plus escort destroyers). The surface combat TF34 was supposed to cover the San Bernadino Strait to the north of Leyte. Unfortunately Halsey (who was racing after the decoy carrier force to the north) also commited TF34; hence there was no cover for the northern entrance to Leyte. The removal of TF34 was NOT reported to Admiral Kinkaid. The first he recognised this was when Force A strarted attacking Taffy 3 at 06.59 hours! The rest is history.
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entemedor
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Gambier Bay

Post by entemedor »

Task Group 77.4 (part of TF.77) was surprised at dawn on 25 Oct 1944, mainly because bad weather had hindered US air reconnaissance during the previous night, while Japanese Kurita force passed through San Bernardino Strait. Cruisers TONE, CHIKUMA, HAGURO and CHOKAI brought the carrier under effective fire, with battleships YAMATO and NAGATO also lobbing shells from long range. US destroyers HOEL, JOHNSTON and SAMUEL B. ROBERTS sacrificed themselves to protect the carriers, all three being sunk, and every aircraft of TG 77.4 made several sorties against the IJN cruiser force, eventually sinking CHIKUMA, CHOKAI and SUZUYA; cruiser KUMANO was also disabled by torpedoed from HOEL and JOHNSTON. When TONE and HAGURO were barely 10,000 metres from the surviving carriers, having already set GAMBIER BAY on fire, Kurita finally realised they were small escort carriers and not fleet carriers as previously reported, and barely worthy of the heavy losses his own force was suffering, and he ordered a general withdrawal towards the San Bernardino Strait. Only a well-timed attack by Kamikaze planes against TG 77.4 prevented all of Kurita's force being wiped-out; even so all of his remaining cruisers were more or less damaged.
Destroyer NOWAKE was left behind to rescue survivors from the three sunken cruisers, and she too was sunk by US ships.
Truly a pyrrhic victory for Kurita, who already had lost several ships the previous day, including battleship MUSASHI after 10 bomb and 6 torpedo hits.
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Re: Gambier Bay

Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by entemedor
When TONE and HAGURO were barely 10,000 metres from the surviving carriers, having already set GAMBIER BAY on fire, Kurita finally realised they were small escort carriers and not fleet carriers as previously reported, and barely worthy of the heavy losses his own force was suffering, and he ordered a general withdrawal towards the San Bernardino Strait. Only a well-timed attack by Kamikaze planes against TG 77.4 prevented all of Kurita's force being wiped-out; even so all of his remaining cruisers were more or less damaged.
Actually, I would require your source for this statement. My sources explicitly say that

1) Kurita did not realize how close he was to the landing area at Leyte.

2) Kurita ordered a withdrawal because the ferocity of US DD attacks led him to believe he was facing a much larger force then he in fact was.

3) Belief 2 was supported by Kurita's idea that, however close he may or may not be to the Leyte landing area, he could not believe that the US would have left the area unguarded by heavy surface units. In essence, he could not believe his own success, and the ferocious US DD attacks confirmed in his mind that he must be facing heavy surface units, or would shortly be facing heavy surface units.
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entemedor
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Post by entemedor »

Hi dgaad,

My message was only intended as a general outline of the action. I was using "Chronology of the war at sea" by Rohwer and Hummelchen as source, but obviously you are quoting much more detailed and specific sources, so I have no doubt you are correct. I think the detail of TONE and HAGURO reporting the targets to be small carriers, instead of fleet carriers, I remember from a soft-cover book about the Leyte Gulf, but I have it not in hand now!

Thanks for the detailed info.
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Nikademus
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Battles, military minds, and lack of hindsight

Post by Nikademus »

Its hard to say for sure what the true reasons were behind Kurita's withdrawl, given that from what i've read, the man himself refused to comment about his view of things after the war.

I've heard, in addition to the fear of heavy surface units being nearby, that he also feared an impending attack by the returning Fleet carriers as well. Odd, i've always thought.....given that a key part of the plan was to lure away the American carriers by using their own as bait. Why would not Kurita have faith that this part of the plan might not work? And if so, what does it matter if they return as long as the mission goal is achieved? One might point to the heavy and sustained air attacks he suffered on the way in. However the attacks did cease allowing him to get into the Strait come the morning

As for heavy surface units.....again a puzzling conclusion (if it's true) A pitched battle through heavy surface elements, even in defeat would be preferable to a slow death sitting in harbor. More importantly would be the realization that his force would never get a better shot at the transports even if heavy surface elements are in the way. I can better understand Kurita's puzzlement here though. Any commander in his position would not make the assumption that the enemy would leave their front door unguarded, but in fact, thats what Halsey did and whatever the reason (flubbed communications are often cited), he must bear the responsibility for that. It might have proven costly

But thats the benefit of not only hindsight, but being able to calmly think about things over time with no pressure or heavy weight of responsibility on one's shoulder. Kurita had none of that during the fight, was not a well man, had his flagship shot out from under him, and had previously suffered some of the most intensive air attacks yet seen in the conflict over an entire day.

So in other words, he, and his men were anything but "fresh" for the upcoming fight. Surgio Strait is often taken as an extreme indication of IJN proficiancy vis-a-vis a straight gunfight, which in my personal view is silly. It was anything but a conventional fight, the main element of the "enemy" was doing everything in it's power to avoid the fight, while at the same time brave and heroic light forces, aided by up to 300 aircraft (all told) making sporadic but nearly constant air attacks, harrassed the pursuing Japanese and forced them to manuever against them disrupting their formations and causing the Yamato in particular to take herself out of the fight to avoid torpedoes. Such conditions make it hard to conduct a gunnery practice.

The really sad part is that, even had Kurita been more agressive and stayed around, he would never have succeeded in the IJN's ultimate goal, which were the transports.

Because they had already for the most part unloaded. SHO-1 was doomed even before the Japanese arrived.

All he would have succeeded in doing is allowing Halsey enough time to close the front door with either his carriers, his heavy surface elements or both.

So was Kurita right even if for the wrong assumptions? Guess thats a matter of hindsight again. After Leyte, there would be no more opportunities, even to inflict serious damage.

Gotterdamerung in the 1st degree.
entemedor
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Kurita

Post by entemedor »

BTW, if you want to see a wartime photograph of Vice-Admiral Kurita (1889-1977), check:

www.history.navy.mil/photos/prs-for/jap ... kurita.htm
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Post by mdiehl »

"Hmm, hadn´t she sunk the CVE Gambier Bay or so?"

Not clear. Yamato was in the action so briefly. Kurita retired her early to avoid losing her to the a/c. Have to add that the CVEs pounded the snot out of Kurita's TF. With two other taffeys in the area, he was facing the prospect of losing his entire force in exchange for a few CVEs and DDs. Can anyone really wonder why he retreated when he did?
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Re: Battles, military minds, and lack of hindsight

Post by dgaad »

Originally posted by Nikademus
Its hard to say for sure what the true reasons were behind Kurita's withdrawl, given that from what i've read, the man himself refused to comment about his view of things after the war.


My information about Kurita's mindset comes from the analysis of John Costello, as well as from the book "Eagle Against The Sun", and from some other battle summaries I've read. These are secondary sources, but in the case of Costello and the Eagle against the Sun author, one can safely assume that they had access to interview transcripts of Kurita, and more importantly Kurita's immediate staff (those that survived).



I've heard, in addition to the fear of heavy surface units being nearby, that he also feared an impending attack by the returning Fleet carriers as well. Odd, i've always thought.....given that a key part of the plan was to lure away the American carriers by using their own as bait. Why would not Kurita have faith that this part of the plan might not work? And if so, what does it matter if they return as long as the mission goal is achieved? One might point to the heavy and sustained air attacks he suffered on the way in. However the attacks did cease allowing him to get into the Strait come the morning



The fear of air attack is absolutely correct, and which I forgot to mention. All of my sources mention this also.

The entire battle is replete with irony in the first degree. In essence, Kurita's battlegroup's mission had been a complete success on all counts up until the time he decided to withdraw. The plan called for a Japanese heavy surface group to achieve contact with the transport group by stealth and the committment of an entire fleet of Japanese carriers as a DIVERSION precisely so Kurita could get to where he actually got. A commander looking at that plan prior to execution would assume risk of heavy surface units protecting the transport, risk of air attack from enemy carriers, or both. This was precisely what happened, and precisely these risks obtained. Kurita simply refused to believe that he had succeeded.


As for heavy surface units.....again a puzzling conclusion (if it's true) A pitched battle through heavy surface elements, even in defeat would be preferable to a slow death sitting in harbor. More importantly would be the realization that his force would never get a better shot at the transports even if heavy surface elements are in the way. I can better understand Kurita's puzzlement here though. Any commander in his position would not make the assumption that the enemy would leave their front door unguarded, but in fact, thats what Halsey did and whatever the reason (flubbed communications are often cited), he must bear the responsibility for that. It might have proven costly

But thats the benefit of not only hindsight, but being able to calmly think about things over time with no pressure or heavy weight of responsibility on one's shoulder. Kurita had none of that during the fight, was not a well man, had his flagship shot out from under him, and had previously suffered some of the most intensive air attacks yet seen in the conflict over an entire day.

So in other words, he, and his men were anything but "fresh" for the upcoming fight. Surgio Strait is often taken as an extreme indication of IJN proficiancy vis-a-vis a straight gunfight, which in my personal view is silly. It was anything but a conventional fight, the main element of the "enemy" was doing everything in it's power to avoid the fight, while at the same time brave and heroic light forces, aided by up to 300 aircraft (all told) making sporadic but nearly constant air attacks, harrassed the pursuing Japanese and forced them to manuever against them disrupting their formations and causing the Yamato in particular to take herself out of the fight to avoid torpedoes. Such conditions make it hard to conduct a gunnery practice.

The really sad part is that, even had Kurita been more agressive and stayed around, he would never have succeeded in the IJN's ultimate goal, which were the transports.

Because they had already for the most part unloaded. SHO-1 was doomed even before the Japanese arrived.

All he would have succeeded in doing is allowing Halsey enough time to close the front door with either his carriers, his heavy surface elements or both.

So was Kurita right even if for the wrong assumptions? Guess thats a matter of hindsight again. After Leyte, there would be no more opportunities, even to inflict serious damage.

Gotterdamerung in the 1st degree.
Again you are correct in that most of the Leyte landing forces had gotton ashore. Critical staff and support units were still on board, but even if Kurita had gotton into the transports and begun firing his guns against the American land forces, he probably would not have succeded in altering the course of the campaign. The victory would have been more moral than physical. It would have embarassed the US Navy, and also caused serious losses in tranports, albiet which could have been made up within a few short months.

There was really no way for the Japanese Navy to stop the US by the time of the Leyte landings. But, they could not "do nothing". It would be their last chance to even attempt to inflict losses on the USN with surface craft or carrier air (Kamikazes were just started up in the PI campaign, and became intense by Okinawa -- but the IJN was just a memory by then), and they could not stand by while the Empire crumbled. They had to make the sacrifice against impossible odds. Their conception of honor demanded it. Even knowing they would lose, they gave themselves a decent plan that had a remote chance of success against these odds. The fact that it worked is credit to them, the fact that Kurita's force was lashed by heavy attacks from a force of US Destroyers with 1/10th the firepower of Kurita's force is a credit to the elan and spirit of the US Navy.
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Post by a300mech »

Originally posted by Admiral DadMan
Yamato also had CL Yuma I think too with food enough for 5 days. Both were sunk well short of Okinawa. The plan was to shoot up anything left floating around after a 10 day mass Kamikaze attack.
Actually the cruiser that sortied that final time with Yamato was Yahagi. She was commanded by Tamaichi Hara.
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Post by Bosun »

The Yamato was accompanied by the light cruiser Yahagi and a few destroyers. The Yahagi was commanded by Tamaichi Hara, late of the famous "invincible" Shigure; a veteran DD engaged in the Solomon campaign, surviving without even one KIA until she tangled with a few Cleveland class CLs. Hara was also reputed to have been responsible for sinking PT 109. If it is still available his bio: "Japanese Destroyer Captain" makes for fasciating reading.
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