Borg and Relative spotting.

[thewood1]

One more note...there is a significant amount of randomness and impact from experience and fatigue in spotting in  CM.  Obviously intervening terrain also has an impact and degrades sighting/spotting.

[thewood1]

Mostly rear shots and some side shots. It is reasonable for most tables. I don't rememeber the years. That makes a difference in the AP capabilites for the 50.

[Toozasl]

Actually I find PCK has LESS Borg spotting than CM and I find that highly satisfying.

[thewood1]

I think that is the point of the thread...

[z1812]

Hi All,

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: z1812
If some find it adds immersion or other qualities then thats nice for them. I cannot see the benefit.

The benefit is that it's more realistic.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

How so? All one does is defer the unrealistic until one clicks through all the units to see what they see.

Regards John

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi All,

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: z1812
If some find it adds immersion or other qualities then thats nice for them. I cannot see the benefit.

The benefit is that it's more realistic.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

How so? All one does is defer the unrealistic until one clicks through all the units to see what they see.

Regards John

Actually, take a look at my description. While I don't like using the term "realistic" with games, the borg spotting of CM, when compared to any game that uses relative spotting, is pretty much unrealistic. I still believe it is isolated to being a major issue in specific instances, but they are reproducable and annoying. It was one of the major design overhauls in CM2.

[Sgt Fury]

When are those King Tigers going to be ready Mobius? Great job on the KV-85. One thing I found out was the KV-85 has 3X 7.62mm DT Secondary Armament.

http://www.onwar.com/tanks/ussr/data/kv85.htm

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: z1812

You must only spend more time clicking through units to see what is on the battlefield.

The statement above is simply incorrect.

A more accurate survey of the game function is as follows:

Panzer Command Manual page 42

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: When you select a friendly unit in Panzer Command: Kharkov, only the enemy units that it can see will be shown on the map. By clicking on each individual friendly squad or tank, you can see exactly what they see and what they don’t. To see the combined total of all enemy units as seen by all of the units on your side, just make sure that you don’t have any friendly units selected. Keep in mind that just because one of your units can see an enemy doesn’t mean all units will be able to actually see that same enemy. If it looks like someone “should” be able to see an enemy, but the game says that they can’t, review the various factors below to see if you have considered their facing, orders, and activity as far as how that might differentiate one unit from another in terms of sighting. For example, an unbuttoned tank will have a better spotting distance than a buttoned tank right next to it and a unit that has been firing its weapons has a slight penalty to sighting versus one that is sitting quietly and just observing.

The bold print formatting of the passage is my own.

It's important to read the manual.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
When are those King Tigers going to be ready Mobius?

It will be awhile longer. While I have the major shapes of the turret and hull well underway thanks to Ryan Crierie's models, I just ordered a book of blue prints for the detail things.

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
Great job on the KV-85. One thing I found out was the KV-85 has 3X 7.62mm DT Secondary Armament.

Yes, but the third mg is fixed to the hull and is not aimed but by pointing the entire tank. I think it must be just to suppress things the tank is going to run over. So I don't include it.
Just like the JS hull mg.
And one is facing to the rear of the turret.

[Sgt Fury]

If you had a rear turret MG, it might be easier to sight the rear of the AFV (no need to rotate the turret).
Are hull mounted and rear mounted MGs not in the game? It would be nice to have those [;)]

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
If you had a rear turret MG, it might be easier to sight the rear of the AFV (no need to rotate the turret).

I guess you would sight through the little sight hole. You mostly likely would have to use some other means to check a wider view for enemies.

ORIGINAL: Sgt Fury
Are hull mounted and rear mounted MGs not in the game? It would be nice to have those.

Fixed mounted hull machine guns aren't in the game and neither are rear turret mgs.
Actually, to get a 2 x mg firepower when the tank has both a co-ax and a ball mounted hull mg is a little optimistic as they really would only combine in the forward arc.

[z1812]

Hi All,

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: z1812

You must only spend more time clicking through units to see what is on the battlefield.

The statement above is simply incorrect.

A more accurate survey of the game function is as follows:

Panzer Command Manual page 42

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: When you select a friendly unit in Panzer Command: Kharkov, only the enemy units that it can see will be shown on the map. By clicking on each individual friendly squad or tank, you can see exactly what they see and what they don’t. To see the combined total of all enemy units as seen by all of the units on your side, just make sure that you don’t have any friendly units selected. Keep in mind that just because one of your units can see an enemy doesn’t mean all units will be able to actually see that same enemy. If it looks like someone “should” be able to see an enemy, but the game says that they can’t, review the various factors below to see if you have considered their facing, orders, and activity as far as how that might differentiate one unit from another in terms of sighting. For example, an unbuttoned tank will have a better spotting distance than a buttoned tank right next to it and a unit that has been firing its weapons has a slight penalty to sighting versus one that is sitting quietly and just observing.

The bold print formatting of the passage is my own.

It's important to read the manual.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

The above changes nothing. Whether it is Borg spotting or Relative spotting every unit in ones LOS can eventually be found. And you must still click on individual units as you do in other games to see if you have LOS to them.

I ask myself if I find an increase in my enjoyment of the game because of relative spotting. The answer is no. Others may see it differently.

However I am glad you have also read the manual. Good for you!!

Regards John

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi All,

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

ORIGINAL: z1812

You must only spend more time clicking through units to see what is on the battlefield.

The statement above is simply incorrect.

A more accurate survey of the game function is as follows:

Panzer Command Manual page 42

VERY IMPORTANT NOTE: When you select a friendly unit in Panzer Command: Kharkov, only the enemy units that it can see will be shown on the map. By clicking on each individual friendly squad or tank, you can see exactly what they see and what they don’t. To see the combined total of all enemy units as seen by all of the units on your side, just make sure that you don’t have any friendly units selected. Keep in mind that just because one of your units can see an enemy doesn’t mean all units will be able to actually see that same enemy. If it looks like someone “should” be able to see an enemy, but the game says that they can’t, review the various factors below to see if you have considered their facing, orders, and activity as far as how that might differentiate one unit from another in terms of sighting. For example, an unbuttoned tank will have a better spotting distance than a buttoned tank right next to it and a unit that has been firing its weapons has a slight penalty to sighting versus one that is sitting quietly and just observing.

The bold print formatting of the passage is my own.

It's important to read the manual.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

The above changes nothing. Whether it is Borg spotting or Relative spotting every unit in ones LOS can eventually be found. And you must still click on individual units as you do in other games to see if you have LOS to them.

I ask myself if I find an increase in my enjoyment of the game because of relative spotting. The answer is no. Others may see it differently.

However I am glad you have also read the manual. Good for you!!

Regards John

Let's go back and quote a snippet from your post at the top of the thread, a section of which I've bold-printed:

z1812
I just don't see the advantage of relative spotting. Relative spotting requires much more resource to resolve a turn sequence. Why bother? After I check through all my units I know where the enemy is anyway.

Question: If you've read and understand the manual, why do you continue to post comments that you know are inaccurate?

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: z1812
The above changes nothing. Whether it is Borg spotting or Relative spotting every unit in ones LOS can eventually be found. And you must still click on individual units as you do in other games to see if you have LOS to them.

I think you are confusing clicking on friendly units from enemy units. With relative spotting you click on a friendly unit and all sighting LOS to enemy units are automatically checked. You are talking about clicking on enemy units one by one to check their LOS to a single friendly unit. That is done for you in one click with relative spotting.

But the time it takes to do the relative spotting for end of the turn takes very little time. It is the many times its done during turn processing that makes the turns take time. Besides just relative spotting part of the process must also be checking for hull down too. (I think the two sighting rays do both sight and figure hull down.)

[JMass]

ORIGINAL: z1812
I ask myself if I find an increase in my enjoyment of the game because of relative spotting. The answer is no. Others may see it differently.

My answer is yes, relative spotting is very functionally for me.

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: z1812
Whether it is Borg spotting or Relative spotting every unit in ones LOS can eventually be found. And you must still click on individual units as you do in other games to see if you have LOS to them.

I don't see how this can be done differently considering we are in command of all the units ... can you?

The only way to explain "spotting" is to put ourselves on the battlefield in a first person perspective :

-- A squad of men is suddenly fired upon by a hidden enemy ... the enemy is using an MG34. Now, we can't "see" the actual unit so the unit could possibly be anything that has an MG34 ... ie, mg team, 10 man squad, halftrack, or afv.
-- Every friendly unit in the game can "hear" the MG34 firing and noting the location of the friendly unit being fired upon OR just knowing where the sound is coming from then all of our friendly units "look" over in the general direction. At this point, those who have LOS to the enemy unit "might" be able to see it.

Now, is the above example realistic?
Is Borg or Relative Spotting occuring?

On another note :
Perhaps they need to drop the modifier of +5 (Target Unit is sighted by any other friendly unit).
This should only apply to friendly unit's within the same company ... ie, attached to same HQ.

EDIT NOTE : I don't understand the problem with Relative Spotting and it's effects on playability or "fun factor". I don't have a problem with Relative spotting ... Remind me (anyone), what's the problem?

EDIT NOTE #2 : Ok, back to the original problem ... Is this all about how long it takes the game to resolve the phase? I have a CPU that's at least 4 years old ... a dinasour. I just don't run huge battles!

[rickier65]

ORIGINAL: z1812

Hi All,

I just don't see the advantage of relative spotting. Relative spotting requires much more resource to resolve a turn sequence. Why bother? After I check through all my units I know where the enemy is anyway.

Borg and relative spotting seem no different to me. As the overall commander one way or another I will know where every unit is. Why tie up resources for a feature that makes no difference.

It's just tedious checking every unit to see where enemy units are................................. I would rather turns resolve more quickly than tying up resources for a feature that seems..........................well.................useless.

What do you all think?

regards John

One advantage to the relative spotting model is how the minimap works, and how I use it. By clicking on NO unit, I can see on minimap where enemy units taht someone has an LOS to are located. Then by cycling through the freindly units, but watching the minimap I can quickly find which units have LOS to enemy, and can thus quickly go to those that have targetting potential.

Rick

[thewood1]

ORIGINAL: Mraah

ORIGINAL: z1812
Whether it is Borg spotting or Relative spotting every unit in ones LOS can eventually be found. And you must still click on individual units as you do in other games to see if you have LOS to them.

I don't see how this can be done differently considering we are in command of all the units ... can you?

The only way to explain "spotting" is to put ourselves on the battlefield in a first person perspective :

-- A squad of men is suddenly fired upon by a hidden enemy ... the enemy is using an MG34. Now, we can't "see" the actual unit so the unit could possibly be anything that has an MG34 ... ie, mg team, 10 man squad, halftrack, or afv.
-- Every friendly unit in the game can "hear" the MG34 firing and noting the location of the friendly unit being fired upon OR just knowing where the sound is coming from then all of our friendly units "look" over in the general direction. At this point, those who have LOS to the enemy unit "might" be able to see it.

Now, is the above example realistic?
Is Borg or Relative Spotting occuring?

On another note :
Perhaps they need to drop the modifier of +5 (Target Unit is sighted by any other friendly unit).
This should only apply to friendly unit's within the same company ... ie, attached to same HQ.

EDIT NOTE : I don't understand the problem with Relative Spotting and it's effects on playability or "fun factor". I don't have a problem with Relative spotting ... Remind me (anyone), what's the problem?

EDIT NOTE #2 : Ok, back to the original problem ... Is this all about how long it takes the game to resolve the phase? I have a CPU that's at least 4 years old ... a dinasour. I just don't run huge battles!

I think RS (relative spotting) is big step forward. What is still an issue in PCK, and in a lot of games, is that once one unit spots the unit, you know exactly what the enemy unit is in great detail. This is where I'd like to see PCK have a more CM/POA2-type FOW.

Once again, in CM, the issue to me isn't that all units spot an enemy at the same time, but that they all turn to it like they have real-time communicatiosn and fire on it as soon any unit spots it. No delay. At least in CMSF, there is a delay in spotting for subsequent units. But I still think that knowing you are facing a T34M42 immediately is almost as "unrealistic".

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I think RS (relative spotting) is big step forward. What is still an issue in PCK, and in a lot of games, is that once one unit spots the unit, you know exactly what the enemy unit is in great detail. This is where I'd like to see PCK have a more CM/POA2-type FOW.

Conquest of the Aegean is really interesting in this regard in that the game reports false unit identities. So, that battery of 37mm that you left at the pass through the escarpment is in big trouble when the approaching company of Crusaders turns out to be Matildas, instead. This kind of device is often used in games depicting naval warfare, but we don't see it in land-based very often.

Once again, in CM, the issue to me isn't that all units spot an enemy at the same time, but that they all turn to it like they have real-time communicatiosn and fire on it as soon any unit spots it. No delay. At least in CMSF, there is a delay in spotting for subsequent units.

Yeah, the only way that you'd see something like that (in real life) would be if all the weapon systems on a side were tied together by a fire-director! I've always found it perplexing that more folks don't recoil at the sight of it.

But I still think that knowing you are facing a T34M42 immediately is almost as "unrealistic".

Agreed, again. Knowing the EXACT OOB of your enemy, regardless of how they are deployed, is a big advantage. Some level of variability, based on a loose force ratio of infantry/armour/support would be better. Austerlitz: Napoleon's Greatest Victory had a nice random forces generator based on such ratios, only theirs was infantry/cavalry/artillery.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Mraah]

ORIGINAL: thewood1
I think RS (relative spotting) is big step forward. What is still an issue in PCK, and in a lot of games, is that once one unit spots the unit, you know exactly what the enemy unit is in great detail. This is where I'd like to see PCK have a more CM/POA2-type FOW.

Yeah, I'd like to see this change too.

Once again, in CM, the issue to me isn't that all units spot an enemy at the same time, but that they all turn to it like they have real-time communicatiosn and fire on it as soon any unit spots it. No delay. At least in CMSF, there is a delay in spotting for subsequent units. But I still think that knowing you are facing a T34M42 immediately is almost as "unrealistic".

I feel it was common for everyone to turn and fire on a target of opportunity. The only thing stopping them (or delaying them) from firing on the same (or different) target was the platoon commander ... or the unit froze in panic wondering what it should do next. I feel this is represented by the turn being cut into two phases. Once that new phase starts you can holler at the troops to stop firing and begin coordinating seperate targets or call a cease fire.

So basically, the more direct com you have with troops the longer the delay ... albeit with better spotting and fire control. Without direct com you'll have units firing at everything they see.

... IMHO.

Rob