OT - WWII quiz

[michaelbaldur]

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: terje439




a tank [:D][:D]

Warspite 1

Terje - have you been using Wikipedia again? [:D]

shhh!

is it the Australian boomerang ....

[monkla]

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: warspite1


Warspite 1

Terje - have you been using Wikipedia again? [:D]

shhh!

is it the Australian boomerang ....

Well, you got the Australian bit right. As well as being a bent stick though, the Boomerang was a fighter.

[AbeSimpson]

Its a Sentinel, perhaps ACIII

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: AbeSimpson

Its a Sentinel, perhaps ACIII

Bah! I haven't been here for a few days. I didn't see this gem to answer it. It is an AC3. Now that the cat is out of the bag, we can resort to the intergrid for more details.

From Wikipedia...

The Sentinel tank was designed in Australia in World War II in response to the war in Europe, and to the threat of Japan expanding the war to the Pacific or even a possible Japanese invasion of Australia. It was the first tank to be built with a hull cast as a single piece, and the only tank to be produced in quantity in Australia. The few Sentinels that were built never saw action as Australia's Armoured Divisions had been equipped by that time with British and American tanks.

The AC1 began as a 2 pounder gun-equipped design in November 1940, and initially intended to be a true Cruiser tank. Like the Canadian Ram the Australian Cruiser was to be based on the engine, drive train, and lower hull of the American M3 Medium tank, mated to an upper hull and turret built closely along the lines of a British Crusader. By 1942, trying to keep pace with German tanks, the design specification had become more like an American Medium tank.

The Australian Cruiser tank Mark 1 (AC1) was designated "Sentinel" in February 1942. Fabrication was by Sydney's Chullora Tank Assembly Shops with serial production vehicles emerging in August 1942, the premises also being used as a testing ground. The design used existing parts where available from other tank designs, simplified where necessary to match the machining capacity present in Australia. The hull was cast as a single piece, as was the turret; a technique not used on the hull of any other tanks of the era.

The original vehicle was designed to mount a QF 2 pounder this was later changed to a QF 6 pdr (57 mm, 2.25 in), however none of these were available and the first 65 tanks were built with the 2 pounder. Two Vickers machine guns were carried as secondary armament, one in the hull and a second mounted coaxially beside the main gun. The preferred engines suitable to power a 28 tonne tank, a Pratt & Whitney Wasp single row petrol radial, or a Guiberson diesel radial, were not available within Australia, so the Sentinel was powered by the combined output of three Cadillac 346 in³ (5.7 L) V8 petrol car engines installed in clover-leaf configuration. Sixty-five production vehicles had been completed by June 1943.

The Sentinel was to be succeeded by the AC3, a much improved design with better armour protection, and increased firepower. The next step up in firepower available in Australia was the 25 pounder (87.6 mm, 3.45 in) gun-howitzer, this was quickly redesigned as a tank gun using experience gained from the work on the short 25 pounder. Mounted in a fully traversable turret larger than that of the AC1 but using the same 54 inch (137 cm) turret ring, it was slightly cramped for the turret crew but gave the AC3 both armour piercing capability as well as an effective high explosive round. The hull machine gun and gunner were removed from the design to make room for stowage of the larger 25 pounder ammunition. Powered by the same three Cadillac V8 engines as the AC1, they were now mounted on a common crank case and geared together to form the Perrier-Cadillac, a single 17.1 L, 24 cylinder engine, very similar in some respects to the later A57 Chrysler multibank used in some variants of the US M3 and M4 tanks. One pilot model AC3 had been completed and work had started on producing 25 tanks for trials when the programme was terminated.

In an effort to further improve the firepower of the Australian produced tanks a turret was developed and mounted on one of the earlier development vehicles to assess the vehicle's ability to mount the foremost Allied anti-tank gun of the day - the British 17 pounder (76 mm, 3 in). This was achieved by mounting two 25 pounder gun-howitzers which when fired together would significantly exceed the recoil of a 17 pounder; it was later fitted with a 17 pounder and after successful gunnery trials the 17 pounder was selected for the AC4 design.

The completed Sentinel tanks were used for evaluation purposes only and were not issued to operational armoured units. The Australian Cruiser tank programme was terminated in July 1943 and the tanks that had been produced were placed in storage until the end of the war.

In 1943 the 3rd Army Tank Battalion was equipped with a squadron of AC1 tanks which had been modified to resemble German tanks. These tanks were used in the filming of the movie 'The Rats of Tobruk'. This appears to have been the only time a squadron of Sentinels was used for any purpose.

All but 3 tanks were dismantled or disposed of in 1945.

Surviving Sentinels can be seen at the RAAC tank museum at Puckapunyal Victoria (serial number 8030), and at the Bovington Tank Museum (serial number 8049). The only completed AC3 (serial number 8066) is located at the Treloar Technology Centre at the Australian War Memorial in Canberra.

From what I know about tanks, I'd say the AC3 and AC4 would have been pretty handy and for me (as an Aussie WW2 buff) it's a pity they weren't produced in quantity and used. They'd have to eliminate that shot-trap on the side of the turret though.

Here's a 17pdr armed AC4.

Cheers, Neilster

[mmn]

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When they were finally spotted, it was a submarine, not
an aircraft that found them. I.65 was the most easterly placed of the Submarine
screen and she spotted the British ships in mid-afternoon on the 9th December.
The submarine was then able to tail the British ships and get off a report of
the sighting before losing contact in a rain squall.

Maybe it's just a typing error, but I have a source which credits I-56 with the spotting of Prince of Wales and Repulse. 'The Rising Sun' by John Toland on p.238 says I-56 spotted Prince of Wales and Repulse at 1:45pm Dec.9th, but that static prevented a message from being delivered to Saigon before 3pm.

[Ohio Jones]

OT - question for the questioners.  Is there a listing somewhere of the names the Germans gave to occupied Soviet towns and cities?  A friend's late father-in-law (an Austrian) served in the Crimea, and there's a picture of him outside a city or town, and the caption on the back refers to it with a German name.  I don't have the picture handy here, but if there's somewhere I can point my friend to in terms of a little research, I know he'd be grateful.  He didn't turn anything up during his own trip to Russia earlier this year...
 
Thank in advance for any assistance!

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: mmn

ORIGINAL: warspite1

When they were finally spotted, it was a submarine, not
an aircraft that found them. I.65 was the most easterly placed of the Submarine
screen and she spotted the British ships in mid-afternoon on the 9th December.
The submarine was then able to tail the British ships and get off a report of
the sighting before losing contact in a rain squall.

Maybe it's just a typing error, but I have a source which credits I-56 with the spotting of Prince of Wales and Repulse. 'The Rising Sun' by John Toland on p.238 says I-56 spotted Prince of Wales and Repulse at 1:45pm Dec.9th, but that static prevented a message from being delivered to Saigon before 3pm.

Warspite 1

Maybe John Toland made a typing error - I have two sources says its I-65.

[mlees]

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur




2 the other was the Oklahoma ...it was raised and scrapped

Warspite1

Bingo

You know, I was sure that the fate of the Oklahoma was wrong, since I knew she broke up while being towed to the West Coast. I looked around for a website reference to show it, and found that she was sold for scrap prior to the tow. One of my great aunts was talking a few years ago about her experiences in Hawaii during the war (she sailed to Hawaii in mid-December 1941), and she mentioned the Oklahoma. Her brother got her a job as his secretary (his company worked in the shipyard), and she mentioned the Oklahoma breaking up and she still sounded regretful about the wasted effort of raising the ship, even 60 years later!

You remembered correctly, Oklahoma foundered while under tow to the US west coast:

Wiki

Salvage
The difficult salvage job was commenced on 15 July 1942 by Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard men under the immediate command of Captain F.H. Whitaker, USN. Preparations for righting the overturned hull took 7¾ months. The actual righting took 3¼ months, between 8 March 1943 and 16 June, with Oklahoma being towed into dry dock on 28 December. Decommissioned 1 September 1944, Oklahoma was stripped of guns and superstructure, and sold on 5 December 1946 to Moore Drydock Company of Oakland, California. Oklahoma sank on 17 May 1947, 540 miles out of Pearl Harbor, while being towed to San Francisco.

Of the battleships attacked at Pearl, here are their fates:

USS Nevada Managed to get underway during the attack, but attacked heavily while still in harbor. Ship beached on Hospital Point to avoid blocking channel. Repaired, and returned to service in time to participate in Aleutians in May '43. Other notable battles: Normandy/DDay, Southern France landings, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, bombardment of Japanese Home Islands. Used as target in Bikini Abomb tests, 1946. Radioactive hull sunk by conventional weapons, 65 miles SW of Pearl Harbor, 1948.

USS Arizona: Struck by converted battleship shell dropped as a bomb, detonating one of the magazines. Sank at moorings. Some wreckage cleared away, some guns used as coast defence guns on Oahu. Remains as a memorial.

USS West Virginia: Moored outboard of Tennessee on Dec 7. Hit by two converted battleship shell-bombs, and as many as seven torpedoes. Settled upright due to counter flooding. Refloated in May of '42, returned to service September of '44. Participated in Leyte Gulf battle, bombardments in the Phillippines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa. Ship decomissioned in January of '47, sold for scrap in Auguast, '59.

USS Tennessee: Moored inboard of West Virginia, Dec 7. Hit by two bombs. Ship repaired and returned to service in Febuary of '42. Remained in Eastern Pacific to guard US West Coast, with escort duties as far as Hawaii. Modernisation Aug '42 to May '43. Served in Aleutians, Tarawa, Marshall Islands, Solomons, Marianas, Peleliu, Leyte Gulf, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in Feb '47, sold for scrap in July of '59.

USS Maryland: Moored inboard of Oklahoma, struck by two bombs. Repaired and returned to service in Febuary of '42. Participated in Gilberts, Marshalls, Admiralty Islands, Marianas, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in April of '47, sold for scrap in July of '59.

USS Oklahoma: Moored outboard of Maryland. Struck by five torpedoes, capsized. Turned back upright in a three month operation that ended in June '43, decommisioned in September of '44. Sold for scrap, December of '46, sank under tow.

USS California: Struck by two torpedoes and two bombs. Slowly settled upright. Repaired and returned to service by May of '44. Participated in Marianas, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in Febuary of '47, sold for scrap July of '59.

USS Pennsylvania In dry dock on Dec 7, along with two destroyers. Struck by one bomb, but suffered damage from numerous near misses and explosions from the destroyers in the dock with her. Repaired and returned to service in April of '42. Participated in Aleutians, Gilberts, Marshalls, Florida Islands, Marianas, Peleliu, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Used as target in Bikini Abomb tests. Decomissioned in Aug of '46, radioactive hull sunk off Kwajalein in Feb '48.

Honorable mention: USS Utah Former BB-31, converted into radio controlled target in 1932, with main guns removed. In 1937, quad 1.1inch AA-machine guns were installed, and Utah served as an advanced AA gunnery school. Moored west of Ford Island on Dec 7. Struck by a torpedo, Utah slowly capsized. Decommisioned in Sep of '44, wreck remains in place.

Counting every ship that touched bottom, 5 active BB's sunk. Only Arizona, Oklahoma (and Utah) not returned to service.

[Mike Dubost]

ORIGINAL: mlees

ORIGINAL: Mike Dubost



You know, I was sure that the fate of the Oklahoma was wrong, since I knew she broke up while being towed to the West Coast. I looked around for a website reference to show it, and found that she was sold for scrap prior to the tow. One of my great aunts was talking a few years ago about her experiences in Hawaii during the war (she sailed to Hawaii in mid-December 1941), and she mentioned the Oklahoma. Her brother got her a job as his secretary (his company worked in the shipyard), and she mentioned the Oklahoma breaking up and she still sounded regretful about the wasted effort of raising the ship, even 60 years later!

You remembered correctly, Oklahoma foundered while under tow to the US west coast:

Wiki

Salvage
The difficult salvage job was commenced on 15 July 1942 by Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard men under the immediate command of Captain F.H. Whitaker, USN. Preparations for righting the overturned hull took 7¾ months. The actual righting took 3¼ months, between 8 March 1943 and 16 June, with Oklahoma being towed into dry dock on 28 December. Decommissioned 1 September 1944, Oklahoma was stripped of guns and superstructure, and sold on 5 December 1946 to Moore Drydock Company of Oakland, California. Oklahoma sank on 17 May 1947, 540 miles out of Pearl Harbor, while being towed to San Francisco.

Of the battleships attacked at Pearl, here are their fates:

USS Nevada Managed to get underway during the attack, but attacked heavily while still in harbor. Ship beached on Hospital Point to avoid blocking channel. Repaired, and returned to service in time to participate in Aleutians in May '43. Other notable battles: Normandy/DDay, Southern France landings, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, bombardment of Japanese Home Islands. Used as target in Bikini Abomb tests, 1946. Radioactive hull sunk by conventional weapons, 65 miles SW of Pearl Harbor, 1948.

USS Arizona: Struck by converted battleship shell dropped as a bomb, detonating one of the magazines. Sank at moorings. Some wreckage cleared away, some guns used as coast defence guns on Oahu. Remains as a memorial.

USS West Virginia: Moored outboard of Tennessee on Dec 7. Hit by two converted battleship shell-bombs, and as many as seven torpedoes. Settled upright due to counter flooding. Refloated in May of '42, returned to service September of '44. Participated in Leyte Gulf battle, bombardments in the Phillippines, Iwo Jima, Okinawa. Ship decomissioned in January of '47, sold for scrap in Auguast, '59.

USS Tennessee: Moored inboard of West Virginia, Dec 7. Hit by two bombs. Ship repaired and returned to service in Febuary of '42. Remained in Eastern Pacific to guard US West Coast, with escort duties as far as Hawaii. Modernisation Aug '42 to May '43. Served in Aleutians, Tarawa, Marshall Islands, Solomons, Marianas, Peleliu, Leyte Gulf, Iwo Jima, and Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in Feb '47, sold for scrap in July of '59.

USS Maryland: Moored inboard of Oklahoma, struck by two bombs. Repaired and returned to service in Febuary of '42. Participated in Gilberts, Marshalls, Admiralty Islands, Marianas, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in April of '47, sold for scrap in July of '59.

USS Oklahoma: Moored outboard of Maryland. Struck by five torpedoes, capsized. Turned back upright in a three month operation that ended in June '43, decommisioned in September of '44. Sold for scrap, December of '46, sank under tow.

USS California: Struck by two torpedoes and two bombs. Slowly settled upright. Repaired and returned to service by May of '44. Participated in Marianas, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Decommisioned in Febuary of '47, sold for scrap July of '59.

USS Pennsylvania In dry dock on Dec 7, along with two destroyers. Struck by one bomb, but suffered damage from numerous near misses and explosions from the destroyers in the dock with her. Repaired and returned to service in April of '42. Participated in Aleutians, Gilberts, Marshalls, Florida Islands, Marianas, Peleliu, Leyte Gulf, Okinawa battles. Used as target in Bikini Abomb tests. Decomissioned in Aug of '46, radioactive hull sunk off Kwajalein in Feb '48.

Honorable mention: USS Utah Former BB-31, converted into radio controlled target in 1932, with main guns removed. In 1937, quad 1.1inch AA-machine guns were installed, and Utah served as an advanced AA gunnery school. Moored west of Ford Island on Dec 7. Struck by a torpedo, Utah slowly capsized. Decommisioned in Sep of '44, wreck remains in place.

Counting every ship that touched bottom, 5 active BB's sunk. Only Arizona, Oklahoma (and Utah) not returned to service.

Actually, I was wrong about the timing of the decommissioning versus the tow. I had thought she was still in commission at the time of the tow.

[brian brian]

this might be an easy one, might not...in 1941, while demanding an immediate Second Front, what did Stalin offer to England?

[brian brian]

maybe that one was too hard. It was something I just noticed when re-reading the Churchill volumes but had never heard anywhere else. Churchill tends to go in to too many hypothetical details in those books. Once I tell you what it was, it is pretty obvious.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

maybe that one was too hard. It was something I just noticed when re-reading the Churchill volumes but had never heard anywhere else. Churchill tends to go in to too many hypothetical details in those books. Once I tell you what it was, it is pretty obvious.

Warspite1

I think you should tell us the answer.

[brian brian]

oh, I've been meaning to type in the exact quote from the Churchill, but I am currently reading the subsequent volume and I haven't found it again. Basically Stalin offered to send over the Infantry needed! I had never heard that before. Churchill declined on the basis of not enough available shipping. So then I started thinking ... maybe if I set up the Russian TRS in Murmansk, and ... but really it could never ever work in WiF, but it was fun to ponder the massively alternative history.

[warspite1]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

oh, I've been meaning to type in the exact quote from the Churchill, but I am currently reading the subsequent volume and I haven't found it again. Basically Stalin offered to send over the Infantry needed! I had never heard that before. Churchill declined on the basis of not enough available shipping. So then I started thinking ... maybe if I set up the Russian TRS in Murmansk, and ... but really it could never ever work in WiF, but it was fun to ponder the massively alternative history.

Warspite 1

I`ve never heard of that and given that you said he offered the infantry in 1941, I take it he was not being serious - even if it was logistically possible (which I doubt). He should have been more concerned at that time with needing every available man on the Eastern Front...bizarre, no wonder no one got the answer!

You can imagine too, that if it had happened he would have shot any returning Russians afterwards for "collaborating" with the western decadents...

[Neilster]

Stalin, and the Russians in general, lied through their back teeth about almost everything to the Western Allies. They were outrageously paranoid and always tried to skew circumstances so as to complain about their share of the war effort.

In prisoners alone, they lost approximately 3 million soldiers from June 22 1941 to the end of the year. Losses were so heavy that by the Autumn of 1941 new recruits to the Red Army were often given barely any (or no) training at all before being thrown into combat. An offer to provide troops for a second front in 1941 was almost certainly one of Stalin's ruses. There may have been something to it if it occurred very early on (before the horrific losses) but even then, the logistical problems of transporting the tens of thousands of troops to Britain would have been enormous. Would the British have to arm them? They had their hands full producing enough weapons for their own army. If not, all their equipment would need transporting too. Much better to just use them on the Eastern Front. In short, bollocks.

People often talk blithely about unlimited Russian manpower but the facts are otherwise. Apart from the hideous losses in 1941, Stalin insisted on continuing the winter counter-offensive for too long in early 1942 and then the Red Army launched their disastrous and costly Kharkov attack in May 1942, leaving it very short of men for some time. Although the Russians recovered to go over to the general offensive in November 1942 and win great victories in 1943 and 1944 their relatively unsophisticated tactics and general profligacy with regard to casualties meant that by mid 1944 they were running out of men. Although many freed Soviet POWs and forced labourers were sent to the GULAG, most were actually quickly pressed into military service, such was the desperate need to flesh out Red Army formations.

Cheers, Neilster

[Ohio Jones]

ORIGINAL: Ohio Jones

OT - question for the questioners.  Is there a listing somewhere of the names the Germans gave to occupied Soviet towns and cities?  A friend's late father-in-law (an Austrian) served in the Crimea, and there's a picture of him outside a city or town, and the caption on the back refers to it with a German name.  I don't have the picture handy here, but if there's somewhere I can point my friend to in terms of a little research, I know he'd be grateful.  He didn't turn anything up during his own trip to Russia earlier this year...

Thank in advance for any assistance!

Anyone...? Anyone...? Bueller...?

[brian brian]

the point Neilster mentions is why it took me so long to give out the answer...I wanted to find it again in the Churchill volume to more precisely date the offer. I think it was early on, like July '41, before the depths of the disaster the Red Army was experiencing were truly known. I'll try and find it again.

Simulating the Manpower pressures on most of the combatants in WWII is the future of developing the realism of WiF...



OK, quiz time...what was the first non-China port used to ship western supplies to China?

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the point Neilster mentions is why it took me so long to give out the answer...I wanted to find it again in the Churchill volume to more precisely date the offer. I think it was early on, like July '41, before the depths of the disaster the Red Army was experiencing were truly known. I'll try and find it again.

Simulating the Manpower pressures on most of the combatants in WWII is the future of developing the realism of WiF...



OK, quiz time...what was the first non-China port used to ship western supplies to China?

Hanoi?

-Orm

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: brian brian

the point Neilster mentions is why it took me so long to give out the answer...I wanted to find it again in the Churchill volume to more precisely date the offer. I think it was early on, like July '41, before the depths of the disaster the Red Army was experiencing were truly known. I'll try and find it again.

Simulating the Manpower pressures on most of the combatants in WWII is the future of developing the realism of WiF...



OK, quiz time...what was the first non-China port used to ship western supplies to China?

Rangoon?

Cheers, Neilster

[Neilster]

ORIGINAL: Ohio Jones

ORIGINAL: Ohio Jones

OT - question for the questioners.  Is there a listing somewhere of the names the Germans gave to occupied Soviet towns and cities?  A friend's late father-in-law (an Austrian) served in the Crimea, and there's a picture of him outside a city or town, and the caption on the back refers to it with a German name.  I don't have the picture handy here, but if there's somewhere I can point my friend to in terms of a little research, I know he'd be grateful.  He didn't turn anything up during his own trip to Russia earlier this year...

Thank in advance for any assistance!

Anyone...? Anyone...? Bueller...?

Voo-doo economics [:D]

Cheers, Neilster