Submarines and targets

[Mark W Carver]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
My SC exp is upto 88 and I have sen many superor IJN subs that I have in my fleet , I have sent many inferior navel vessals to the watery grave of the ocean, so you can see the training has nothing to do with it, it is the superor JAPENESE vessals just like during all the conflicts of the world wars.

WOW! I shouldn't be doing this, but.... one word.

==== M I D W A Y ====

:p

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
I .... jap subs are superor in build and technology

Michael, for this UV game Japanese, British, US,
Jamaican... submarines all designed and build by Matrix and 2x3 team w/Grigsby san. :rolleyes: Welcome to the forum!

[FAdmiral]

The submarines in UV are not that very different from each other
in terms of individual construction. Now in SH2, I have commanded all types, German, Dutch, British, Japanese and
American. The U-Boats are far superior with the American
Fleet boats coming in second. The Brits are OK but the Dutch
and Japanese subs are large and very slow to react. And
against the Japanese Naval fleets, I can torp & evade them
with ease. But in UV, they seem to have the edge but I made
up for that with my last turn. It was early June 1942 and the
Japanese AI was mounting a major offensive against Port Moresby. My PBY's saw them coming and setting up in Gili-Gili
to invade PM. I had plenty of LBA there, mines surrounding the
harbour and subs covering the main routes. My carriers were
at Noumea refueling so they were out of the picture. The
bombardment force came at night BUT (shades of Midway)
2 BBs and 1 DD hit Mk. 16 mines. As they were retiring the
next day (never did bombard) my LBA gave them a horrific
pasting. And as they retired through the channel, my subs
nailed another DD and CA. I only lost 1 "S" class sub and a
few aircraft. Port Moresby WAS SAVED. With the back of the
Japanese fleet broken, they limped back to Rabaul. Now that
turn I will definately save and keep for prosperity. All of this
was made possible with the 1.11 patch which keeps the
battle more on an even keel. GREAT GOING guys from Matrix
and 2by3 !!!!!

JIM BERG, SR.

[Ron Saueracker]

Well. Been doing lots of research for ship data base and guess what? Another mine warfare problem. For those of us who look upon the Argonaut as the only decent offesive mine capability platform for the allies, we should mourn it's demise as such. The Argonaut was converted from a minelayer into strictly a transport submarine in early 1942, losing it's mine ops capability. Oh well... :rolleyes:

[Raverdave]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
This is not my first post RAVERDAVE I have many posts.....

My SC exp is upto 88 and I have sen many superor IJN subs that I have in my fleet , I have sent many inferior navel vessals to the watery grave of the ocean, so you can see the training has nothing to do with it, it is the superor JAPENESE vessals just like during all the conflicts of the world wars.

Un huh.......guess thats why Japan won the war :rolleyes:
Well there is only one way to shut you up...........how about we have a PBEM?

[Michael Chan]

Yes we do have a PBM , you need to accecpt tat even though Japan we unsuccessful during the war our MACHINES was far superor than AUSTRALIAN, BRITISH, AND YANKYS. Our engieers were far superor, because of there training and way of life and I think this is showing in the game and in your reply's. We (japenese) are always at the forfront of technology and are always striving for perfection.


What is learned in the cradle lasts to the grave. What you give is what you get. - Telagu (1821-1878)

[Jagger2002]

I think there are two good solutions to very strong subs.


One is to use the IJN sub realism rule. Prevents IJN subs from wiping out US invasions by massing on the location. Doesn't prevent the US subs from doing the same to IJN invasions. Nor does it prevent the US from parking in Rabaul or Truk.


A very good alternative which I have used with most of my PBEM partners was an agreement not to place subs directly on enemy bases or invasion sites. They can be directly adjacent-just not directly on the site. I really like this agreement because the IJN is allowed to use their subs a little more agressively by going after transports. And neither side can park at a harbor or invasion site and just start torpedoing everything in sight. Typically subs will get one shot at passing covoys. So they are still a factor but they are incapable of the turkey shoots by parking in locations where typically there are massive numbers of stationary targets.

[bradfordkay]

In my games so far (all solo against the Japanese AI) I have used the Historical Japanese Sub Doctrine option and have mostly kept my subs on the convoy approaches. Well, except for the last game where they were invading Gili Gili. I just had to send a couple of subs into Milne Bay (I figured from what charts of the area I have seen that it isn't a completely suicidal attack - I'd love to see the admiralty charts of the area) to hit the supply ships.

I do like to send out 4 sub mining TFs to mine the passages between the islands. Typically a transport will hit one and then the Japanese minesweepers will come out to clear it away. A few weeks later, I send in a new batch...

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by Michael Chan

Yes we do have a PBM ,...

One of you (or both!!!), please post an AAR. hee hee,.. running to get the pop corn.

[FAdmiral]

Maybe Michael doesn't really know what PBEM actually means,
Play-by-E-Mail game. Riverdale would like to play Michael by
this method. And no Michael, it is not the name of a ship or
aircraft !!!

JIM BERG, SR.

[rhohltjr]

Originally posted by FAdmiral
... Now in SH2, I have commanded all types, German, Dutch, British, Japanese and
American. The U-Boats are far superior with the American
Fleet boats coming in second. The Brits are OK but the Dutch
and Japanese subs are large and very slow to react. ...

JIM BERG, SR.

FAdmiral,

I was under the impression that SH2 was exclusively Atlantic / U-Boats. Are you really able to command all these different subs in SH2.
Can't imagine MOD guys have been that busy!

I guess the Brits, Dutch and Japanese had better sub torps->(Bureau Ord~BOHICA) than USA did early on.

thx, Robert Hohlt, Jr.

[FAdmiral]

Robert,

Actually both DC and SH2 shipped using the full map (long &
lat) of the planet so scenarios can be created anywhere on
the globe. Sub modding has been done by mainly one guy
and he has got some of them to work OK SH2 did not ship
with any Japanese models so you have to import them from
DC. Many a time I have seen a battle on UV that I thought
"what if I were in command of that sub" so I just recreated
the battle on SH2 in the same L & L position to see if I was
a better captain of the sub that the UV AL captain was.
I ALWAYS do much better, hitting ships mostly every time
and evading the DDs rather easily. Jap DDs always tended
to drop DCs very shallow. Of course, if I am in shallow water,
it's quite a bit tougher to evade.

JIM BERG, SR.

PS. Wouldn't it be SWEET if one game did this all for you.....WOW !
WITP, DC and SH2 as 1 complete game.....AWSUM !!!!!!!!!

[1089]

Originally posted by FAdmiral
Maybe Michael doesn't really know what PBEM actually means,
Play-by-E-Mail game. Riverdale would like to play Michael by
this method. And no Michael, it is not the name of a ship or
aircraft !!!

JIM BERG, SR.

The way I read it was that Michael was already playing a PBEM with Raverdave, and had posted many times before, under his real name. What person named Chan (a Chinese name) is going to rave about Japanese superiority?

kp

[Raverdave]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
Yes we do have a PBM , you need to accecpt tat even though Japan we unsuccessful during the war our MACHINES was far superor than AUSTRALIAN, BRITISH, AND YANKYS. Our engieers were far superor, because of there training and way of life and I think this is showing in the game and in your reply's. We (japenese) are always at the forfront of technology and are always striving for perfection.


What is learned in the cradle lasts to the grave. What you give is what you get. - Telagu (1821-1878)

Yeah right, whatever, but just remember this....it was AUSSIE troops that FIRST stopped the Japanese, and it was in a small place called kokoda track......I also recall seeing a submarine on display at the Australian War Memorial........one of the three that attacked Sydney and sank a passenger ferry. Two were sunk and one decided to commit themselfs to what ever gods they prayed too. "Superor" training and technolgy huh?

[Michael Chan]

I seem to remember it was the kokoda TRAIL and you want to talk about technology ask your so called historians about the aircarft used during WW2 , my understanding they were built on early prototype japanese zeros. And yes I know my surname is Chinese but my father was Chinese and mother Japanese and they met during the war so please don't attack my nationality. I also know what PBEM means as I am in the middle of a email game with a British historian from Cambridge, I just wanted to be a smarting pants.



Dead men don't bite. - Plutarch (46-120)

[Raverdave]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
I seem to remember it was the kokoda TRAIL and you want to talk about technology ask your so called historians about the aircarft used during WW2 , my understanding they were built on early prototype japanese zeros. And yes I know my surname is Chinese but my father was Chinese and mother Japanese and they met during the war so please don't attack my nationality. I also know what PBEM means as I am in the middle of a email game with a British historian from Cambridge, I just wanted to be a smarting pants.



Dead men don't bite. - Plutarch (46-120)

Yes it WAS called the Kokoda trail by an AMERICAN reporter, but the term "Trail" is an american one where as "Track" is an Aussie term, here in Australia it is called the Kokoda Track.

Interesting point that you raise about the Zeros.....could you please supply the details and which alllied aircraft were based on the design of the zero? Facts please.

Last point...I have not yet attacked your nationality......your arrogance however is anothere issue.

[1089]

Originally posted by Michael Chan
I seem to remember it was the kokoda TRAIL and you want to talk about technology ask your so called historians about the aircarft used during WW2 , my understanding they were built on early prototype japanese zeros. And yes I know my surname is Chinese but my father was Chinese and mother Japanese and they met during the war so please don't attack my nationality. I also know what PBEM means as I am in the middle of a email game with a British historian from Cambridge, I just wanted to be a smarting pants.



Dead men don't bite. - Plutarch (46-120)

I wasn't attcking your nationality. I thought it illogical that a man with a Chinese name would be spouting Japanese propaganda, that's all.

kp

[rhohltjr]

... please don't attack my nationality.

[/B]

Michael, that just dosen't go on, on these forums. We have all seen some rather intense arguments here but nationality bashing has never been an issue. I doubt it would be tolerated.

BTW I have heard Kokoda Track / Trail before. Seems the same to me. If not, I am certainly open to learn new things.

Finally, I too would like to find out your sources for stating allied aircraft were built from early prototype zeros.

[Don Bowen]

The Australian Official History of World War II uses the term “Kokoda Track”.

The U.S. Official History of World War II uses the term “Kokoda Trail”.

I do not have a Japanese history and I’d be language-impeded from reading it anyway.

Don

[mdiehl]

"I seem to remember it was the kokoda TRAIL and you want to talk about technology ask your so called historians about the aircarft used during WW2 , my understanding they were built on early prototype japanese zeros."

The A6M series fighters were based on Howard Hughes "Hughes Racer." The USN early war a/c were based on Grumman and Brewster designs with a developmental history that predated the Zeros by about 2 years. The RAAF Wirraway was based on a home-grown design that started out as a civilian a/c. The RAF/RIAF (in Malaysia and Burma in early 1942) primarily deployed F2A3 (Brewsters) obtained through Lend-Lease, much to their dismay, and Hawker Hurricanes, neither of which had any developmental association with the A6M series used by Japan. The US P40 was an in-line deriavtive of the Curtiss P36 Hawk (a radial engined beastie from 1939). The Bell P39 was a unique design. The Republic P47 "Tunderbolt" was a development from the Seversky P35-Republic P-43 Lancer line. The Lockheed P38 was a unique design.

It is often incorrectly supposed that an A6M captured in the Aleutians in early 1943 influenced late war US Navy aircraft design. That's incorrect. The major late war US a/c models F6F and F4U were in design prior to the start of the war and followed closely the principles set forth by their design teams. Igor Sikorski for the Vought F4U, favoring a radial engined demon-dawg and Grumman continuing with the sturdy radial-designs started with the Grumman Goblin series biplane fighter of 1938.