Is this possible? Fair?

[Gary Tatro]

Ok here is the situation.

A meeting engagment. US versus Axis

US is going first. My opponent. On predeployment performs an air drop and artillary barages.

Beginning of turn 1

Drops troops. The air craft flies the full length of the map thus discovering units that I have placed. Dropped troops get to move and fire. US player remembers where units were from the air drop and plots artillary to land .01.

Player 1 ends turn and send file to me.

I open the file and look at play back on VCR. I see NO air drop and no initial bombardment. My units get blasted by artillary.

Can this happen?

And if so what is to stop the player 1 from doing a bunch of air drops on predeployment and then moving and player two never being able to see where the planes come from where they go and an idea on where the units landed. The thing is that you would never know that you have units behind your lines untill they started destroying your units. Special ops is one thing. This is another.

Has anyone done this before?

[Orzel Bialy]

I HATE AIRDROPS! It opens up a Pandora's Box of issues with me in general.

It is a tactic that I had first read about in other threads and my friend Hellcat tried using on me in one of our battles. I countered the threat by deploying a double layered mine belt and loads of AA. ( the mine issue really ruffles feathers too )

Anyway, I never saw the first turns airdrops and they wasted an arty unit of mine right off the get go. Had I not bought mobile arty I would have suffered even more because a turn or two later the old positions of two other of my SPA's were thoroughly lit up.

A second downside with airdrops that last several turns was that I had to keep moving these units about to keep from having them pummeled. The result was my own arty was not as heavy as I could have used...because they spent so much time moving.

Had I not deployed that large minefield and LOTS of flak units...I would have been swept away by the frontal onslaught that was sent to hit me while I attempted to fight the units that were being dropped all over my rear areas. Luckily the minefields spoiled most of the frontal attack and I was able to wipe out the AB units without many losses. However, had I not prepared the way I did...it would have been all over in less than 10 turns!

So, any battle I play from here on out will have to be with the agreement of "zero mines and zero airdrops"!

[rbrunsman]

Would it be possible to just make a rule that no airdrops can occur in turn 1? That way, I suppose, you would see the AB units dropping? If it is a game quirk that you never see airdrops in any turn then I agree that they shouldn't be used unless there were some invisible AB units and transport planes in WWII that I am unaware of.

I like the excitement of having to deal with enemy units running around in my backfield (and vice versa). And, I don't like the risk of having my commandoes show up on turn 99. There is quite a thrill in foiling my opponent's carefully laid plans to sneak up on my arty when they bump into my heavy mgs in ambush positions.

I hope there is a compromise position for this problem, not just a outright ban on the practice of air drops.

[VikingNo2]

Ok It's my airdrop and here is waht happened

1st The plane didn't fly the whole lenght of the Map it entered from the back a exited to the south. I got no recon info from it. I did this so hopefully you would not see the plane.

2nd The plan carried two Airborn and a bazooka and a couple of recon unit(two planes). After they landed I had to rally them, if they had failed to rally I would have never gotton off a shot. Out of all the untis dropped about half failed to rally, but thats why you pay extra for airborn.

3rd You had so many units in one hex a couldn't count. must have been 10 or 15 in the same hex(mostly infantry), the Bazooka fired into the Hex and when you have that many units in one Hex you suffer more casulities. Thats the chance you take the plusof putting many unitin one hex is smaller footprint so arty might not get you at all; the minus if you get hit you are going to suffer many casulities.

4th If I don't use my Arty on the first turn I take the chance of counter battery fire and not getting to use them at all. You don't have to fire to receive CB fire, I used to wait but it happed to me, and even if I don't kill anything it layes cover for any FOs or Infiltraters I get behind the lines.

If I am playing against the Germans I try to use every advantage I can If I meet them head on. I will get crushed! Face it they had some of the best equiptment of the War, heck a tiger could take out tank that were being used in the 50's

Lastly, the airdrop landed in the middle of your troops, I would rather if you had never seen them at all, I knew they would all be dead in a turn and it should take you about a turn to wipe them out( which you did) so I call arty on myself hoping to get some of the one's who killed me. I hate to type and don't spell well but I thought this needed explaining

Please I would like to here more discussion on this if I'm wrong I'm wrong

[rbrunsman]

Sounds reasonable to me. But why wasn't the airplane spotted at all by the troops you landed on? I would think they are the easiest thing in the world to spot. You almost always draw some mg fire when you fly over.

I was thinking of our game when I mentioned the fun of wiping out an opponent's infiltrators (although that cut both ways in our battle )

I think I'd like to see it in practice before I ban it from a game I play. It's just too much fun having infiltrators.

[VikingNo2]

As far as spotting the plane I don't know, it should have been spotted I guess, I was only on the map for about 10 hexs, maybe the SPWAW GODS could shed some light on this.

[Capt. Pixel]

I've had this 'First Turn Para drop' done to me in two recent games. My only complaint is that I didn't get to see the planes on the playback.

In one game, it was 4-5 turns before I realized he was in my backfield. (Flags suddenly changed!) The problem was aggravated as we were using C&C. Getting a platoon of infantry, trucks and tanks to change objectives, turn around, and to deal with the rear area threat, was daunting. (No more C&C for me. If you're for realism, give me some bullets, and YOU start running :p )

In the other game, Soviet paratroopers arrived his turn one. landed, moved, destroyed FOUR sIG33 PzIs, et al; all before I even got to open my first turn. This was a river crossing assault. (he got across the river alright!!)

On the other hand, I knew right away that he was there. It's hard to hide four companies of paratroopers from German Ski squads.

I think that a gentleman's agreement not to make your paradrops on the opening turn, might be in good order.

[VikingNo2]

Your are Captin and all so I guess that make you a gentalmen:D

[TimeTanker]

I think I will have to weigh in on the side of "Let Fly the Dogs of War". The unpredictability of the game is there to simulate the Nature of War. I don't think that you will ever see Umps in a war. Perhaps at places like Nuremburg after the war. but, war is not fair. Never was and never will be.

In a recent interview, General Norman Schwartzkopf was asked if he thought there was room for forgiveness toward the people who have harbored and abetted the terrorists who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks on America.

His answer: "I believe that forgiving them is God's function. Our job is simply to arrange the meeting."


The object is to "Destroy your Enemy" as efficiently as possible. So now that we all know that that strategy exists; perhaps we should take the appropriate care to defend against it. I know that after surviving a couple of these attacks myself I never leave my Arty and leadership alone in the back field. There is always a few HMG units and AA back there just for that possibility.

I can understand that the ability to send in Para's on the 1st turn gives Player no 1 a "Recon Advantage". But, think about it. Most AB Ops are heavily Reconoitered before one plane leaves the ground. And, that is entirely their purpose. To disrupt the carefully laid out plans of the defenders.

Maybe by alternating between Player One and Two with the same scenario would give a good idea of which was the better more imaginative player? That way each would get a chance to surprise the other and defend against the surprise. In my mind it is the player that copes well under stress that will end up the victor.

:p

[BORO]

I have to agree with TimeTanker. That is just part of war and should be part of the game. I had an oppenent drop paratroops on turn 7 or 8 and I did not get to see the planes then either, dropped into an area where I had no line of sight. Only knew they dropped because of the messege on the screen said so.

Read a quote the other day, went something like "plan for the 3 most likely things your oppenent will do, and he will do the 4th"
Boro

[Orzel Bialy]

are pretty much the only way to solve the problem...yeah, I know....so much for the Obvious.

I know some people like the "let it all fly" approach, while others look for balance and yet others (like myself) look for realism.

I guess, besides the unfair recon advantages and first kill possibilities, I just find them unrealistic. AB operations were, more often than not, massive undertakings and let's face it, they didn't drop into every battle.
Outside of the Eastern Front where partisan organizers and occassional raiding parties were dropped at the beginning of major offensives....AB units were usually dropped en masse...and usually only after lines had stabilized and plans could be made in something of a non-fluid situation.

So while some may like the element of surprise AB drops can generate...I am still not a fan of their use...unless there are agreed limitations on their use. (just like mines)

[Capt. Pixel]

I have to agree with TimeTanker, too.

Fortunes of War and all that. Who's expecting a 'Fairness' umpire in their next battle?

All's fair in love and war. So.... no umpires needed.

If you don't care for what he did to you, do it back to him. (Old Testament :rolleyes: ) Or, better yet, think of a new way to bamboozle your opponent. Heheh :p

[rbrunsman]

I don't think anyone would suggest you should see an airdrop even if you don't have LOS to the airplanes. I guess it is possible to hear a transport go by without seeing it, so I'm not so concerned about you getting a message that an airdrop has occurred. From Gary's initial post it sounds like Turn1 airdrops go by unseen even with LOS, That is just not right, but I don't think it warrants banning the practice altogether. The unfairness can easily be remedied by saying no airdrops in turn1.

Has anyone actually seen an airdrop by their opponent? Or for that matter, shot one down before it dropped its units? Maybe they are never seen and never take AAA fire.

[Capt. Pixel]

In older versions (and varieties) of Steel Panthers, my PBEM buddies and I agreed to e-mail 'Da plane' with our save game files whenever an aircraft was used (on any turn).

The VCR Playbacks have notoriously ignored reviewing ANY aircraft activity. So we felt it was only in good, fair play to tell your opponent "Why your Tiger is sitting on the road, burning brightly"?

Why?? Da plane, Boss, da plane!

[TimeTanker]

I have had my C-47's shot down before dropping their cargo. And, I have had gliders shot from the air whilst attempting a landing. Although I don't remember whether it was during one of these 1st turn drops. I just remember seeing the play back and grinding my teeth as I saw my "expensive paras" going down in flames.

Mostly this occured while playing an opponent that it took me years to get to where I could even get a draw out of him.

But, I do know that it is possible to shoot them down.

[Gary Tatro]

Yes I feel that they should be part of the game. I have played games with massive air strikes against me. Yes I saw the planes. Yes I delt with the troops. Not a problem. Same for Special Ops.

What I was originally upset with is that Player 1 can drop a massive amount of troops in turn one. If he is lucky he will get rallies and then be able to attack and destroy a number of units in the back field before Player 2 can react. I had 3 full platoons of GE infantry Guarding that area two hexes away. Yet I almost lost my HQ unit and a bunch of my artillary before I even got a turn.

Because Player 1 drops his troops and then gets to move he has effectivily wiped the VCR playback for the air drop clean. The VCR playback will only show his movement on his first turn.

If the air drop had taken place at any other turn I would have been able to see the planes if I had LOS on him. I would also been able to react on my turn, I think before Player 1 would get at chance to move his AB units.

I do not have a problem with air drops I just had never had the turn one drop happen to me before.

[rbrunsman]

TimeTanker, I'm sorry for your lost. But, oh, the feeling of splashing a fully loaded C-47! What joy your opponent must have had!

I'm glad it can happen. The risk should match the rewards involved in tactics like that. 100% successfull airdrops and glider landings without opposition wouldn't really be as satisfying as running the gauntlet of AAA and making the landings, rallying and making a push on those VHs.

[gnoccop]

I think war has no rules.
So, the only agreement with the opponent, I think, is about a "realistic" OOB; I mean, I don't like to see battles were your opponent has only superheavy super-rare machines of destruction, a lot of elite forces (or only elite forces), plenty of combat engeenirs with FT in a meeting engagement (but in an assoult this is normal), HT for everyone,...

my 2 cents.

[Seth]

I don't mind people using airborne against me, but I hate how you can't see it. It's not like the planes come in at 100 feet to drop the men, although that would be amusing. You can't even see the combat. It's really just a VCR problem, I guess. This goes beyond war not being fair to war being just plain unrealistic. There were no tactics that allowed a group of transports to fly over a troop concentration and drop men out, and those men to then raise hell, without any of the enemy noticing.
Seth