Complexity ?

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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scout1
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Complexity ?

Post by scout1 »

Long time player of SPI and CDW games. Currently heavily immersed in War in the Pacific.

Was curious as to the complexity of this game from the point of view of others with similar background.....
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: scout1

Long time player of SPI and CDW games. Currently heavily immersed in War in the Pacific.

Was curious as to the complexity of this game from the point of view of others with similar background.....
Very complex though that is somewhat mitigated by there being 80 optional rules. If you play the simplest version of the rules, there are fewer units and fewer unit types with a resultant reduction in complexity.

Did you mean GDW?
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scout1
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by scout1 »

Yes, I believe I did mean GDW ......[8|]

I've followed the threads for this game for some time am really curious as to how well it'll adapt to PBEM .....
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Zenra »

scout,

In the groups I've played with we like to throw in all the options, units, even experimental rules (published in the WiF annuals or the newsletter, LoC). WiF is a very complex game, especially with all of the options, but not just because of the mechanics - you have so many options as any of the major powers, and if you are lucky enough to find a group with several human players you have the interaction there to really broaden the complexity.

Playing with the maps and counters is a real commitment - you have to invest $, lots of time and a certain amount of space. I am really looking forward to MWiF because it means I will no longer have to dedicate a whole room of my home to house it and because it promises to allow play with many other groups.

I love and play War in the Pacific all the time (and have a great PBEM game going now). I love its complexity and the freedom of strategy offered. If you like WitP I feel very confident you will like WiF at least as well.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by brian brian »

I never got into the SPI monster games, but WiF has never felt as complicated as the operational SPI games I did play. I think that is because the rules are in more of a GDW style (iirc GDW correctly) i.el. in much less of that super structured case system SPI used. Now perhaps that makes the WiF rules a little trickier to get exactly right at times, but at least they are easier to read.

The complexity can come in from deciding just what to do, not how to do it. Ask a new player, well, is it an "air, naval, land or combined impulse" for the first time and their eyes can be the definition of glazed-over.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by hjaco »

With 15 years experience of WIF I have never felt the rules part as overly complicated although it certainly is in the more heavy end. I would consider Advanced Third Reich to be more complicated rules wise.

Each rule is in itself usually logical and tables relatively easy to get in to.

So a newcomer with say 5 games in the bag can find the game just as easy/difficult as an old grognard like me.

As 2*brian says getting the big picture make planning and executing grand strategy is where the big challenge and complexity lies with this game. Especially in the late part of the game with gazillions of counters.

An example. The Wallies must in early 42' decide in large parts how to execute D-day and prioritize production and logistics to get everything ready and in place for the big show. Slowly at first but still.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by terje439 »

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Especially in the late part of the game with gazillions of counters.

Which is why the tossing and capturing of a lighter should be banned during a board game session...Damn zippo was more effective than a nuke [8|]
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Zorachus99 »

I still occasionally mis-remember rules of yore...
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by hjaco »

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Especially in the late part of the game with gazillions of counters.

Which is why the tossing and capturing of a lighter should be banned during a board game session...Damn zippo was more effective than a nuke [8|]

I remember a game convention from my younger days where a WIF game had gone on for most of a week nearing the endgame when the players went for dinner leaving the window open. The more than fresh breeze made them look quite funny when they came back. Counters were found months thereafter [:D]
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by doctormm »

ORIGINAL: hjaco

ORIGINAL: terje439

ORIGINAL: hjaco

Especially in the late part of the game with gazillions of counters.

Which is why the tossing and capturing of a lighter should be banned during a board game session...Damn zippo was more effective than a nuke [8|]

I remember a game convention from my younger days where a WIF game had gone on for most of a week nearing the endgame when the players went for dinner leaving the window open. The more than fresh breeze made them look quite funny when they came back. Counters were found months thereafter [:D]

That's nothing compared to the one convention where the players used plastic cups for the forcepools. The players came back to the game one morning to find that the cleaning crew had "cleaned up" all the cups...

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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Michael the Pole »

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: hjaco

ORIGINAL: terje439




Which is why the tossing and capturing of a lighter should be banned during a board game session...Damn zippo was more effective than a nuke [8|]

I remember a game convention from my younger days where a WIF game had gone on for most of a week nearing the endgame when the players went for dinner leaving the window open. The more than fresh breeze made them look quite funny when they came back. Counters were found months thereafter [:D]

That's nothing compared to the one convention where the players used plastic cups for the forcepools. The players came back to the game one morning to find that the cleaning crew had "cleaned up" all the cups...


Interestingly, we've been running a thread today over on the Road to Victory forum about massive games we have known -- I'll just copy my post:
"Yeah, we had a DNO/Unentschieden game going in real time (weekly turns) at the UT Wargamers Society from 1973 - 1975. Truly awesome, much better than War in the East. (Interesting trivia: Frank Chadwick designed the game scale so the map would fit, barely, on a ping-pong table.) We started off with each player acting as an army group or Soviet "front" commander, but as people dropped out we ended up assigning a command from the opposite side (and hopefully oposite end of the front!) Contributed mightly to my dropping out of school.
In a related vein, we had a massive game going at about the same time of the SPI Borodino (cant remember now what it was called!) Another table filler, but we were using a house rule where no one could speak to anyone else except rules questions in the presence of the umpire and the enemy commander. All comunication was by written messages, delivered by aides moving on the map as aide'de camp counters. Played in real time (twenty minutes/side for movement) combat phases and housekeeping taking place "off the clock." Fought to a conclusion over a three day holiday. Unquestionably the most interesting and REALISTIC gameing experience of my life. Ended as a quivering, shattered mess after 72 hours of frustration, shock and WAY too much coffee. "

I've been watching this forum for about a year now, but never put my oar in, and unfortunately, now that the RTV game has gone down in flames IMO, primarily because the game designers refuse to do anything about the immunity of naval forces from ANY type of air attack, I've given up on it and now rest all of my hopes on WIF.
I understand that the latest probable launch window is Spring 2009. Does that look to be real live human time or Postal Service time?
"One scoundrel is a disgrace, two is a law-firm, and three or more is a Congress." B. Franklin

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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

ORIGINAL: doctormm

ORIGINAL: hjaco




I remember a game convention from my younger days where a WIF game had gone on for most of a week nearing the endgame when the players went for dinner leaving the window open. The more than fresh breeze made them look quite funny when they came back. Counters were found months thereafter [:D]

That's nothing compared to the one convention where the players used plastic cups for the forcepools. The players came back to the game one morning to find that the cleaning crew had "cleaned up" all the cups...


Interestingly, we've been running a thread today over on the Road to Victory forum about massive games we have known -- I'll just copy my post:
"Yeah, we had a DNO/Unentschieden game going in real time (weekly turns) at the UT Wargamers Society from 1973 - 1975. Truly awesome, much better than War in the East. (Interesting trivia: Frank Chadwick designed the game scale so the map would fit, barely, on a ping-pong table.) We started off with each player acting as an army group or Soviet "front" commander, but as people dropped out we ended up assigning a command from the opposite side (and hopefully oposite end of the front!) Contributed mightly to my dropping out of school.
In a related vein, we had a massive game going at about the same time of the SPI Borodino (cant remember now what it was called!) Another table filler, but we were using a house rule where no one could speak to anyone else except rules questions in the presence of the umpire and the enemy commander. All comunication was by written messages, delivered by aides moving on the map as aide'de camp counters. Played in real time (twenty minutes/side for movement) combat phases and housekeeping taking place "off the clock." Fought to a conclusion over a three day holiday. Unquestionably the most interesting and REALISTIC gameing experience of my life. Ended as a quivering, shattered mess after 72 hours of frustration, shock and WAY too much coffee. "

I've been watching this forum for about a year now, but never put my oar in, and unfortunately, now that the RTV game has gone down in flames IMO, primarily because the game designers refuse to do anything about the immunity of naval forces from ANY type of air attack, I've given up on it and now rest all of my hopes on WIF.
I understand that the latest probable launch window is Spring 2009. Does that look to be real live human time or Postal Service time?
I've played DNO through once but it was way too much work keeping track of what was in each hex. Never got to the next one in the series.

The SPI Borodino we played a dozen times or so and while it favors the French, it requires a lot of skill to get all the troops into the battle at the right time. Loved the counters, and the redone map (2nd version) was quite nice too. - Yes I own both versions.

Just as an aside, Frank was part of the development team (of 3) on my second computer war game for GDW.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by paulderynck »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In a related vein, we had a massive game going at about the same time of the SPI Borodino (cant remember now what it was called!) Another table filler, but we were using a house rule where no one could speak to anyone else except rules questions in the presence of the umpire and the enemy commander. All comunication was by written messages, delivered by aides moving on the map as aide'de camp counters. Played in real time (twenty minutes/side for movement) combat phases and housekeeping taking place "off the clock." Fought to a conclusion over a three day holiday. Unquestionably the most interesting and REALISTIC gameing experience of my life. Ended as a quivering, shattered mess after 72 hours of frustration, shock and WAY too much coffee. "[/i]
I've been watching this forum for about a year now, but never put my oar in, and unfortunately, now that the RTV game has gone down in flames IMO, primarily because the game designers refuse to do anything about the immunity of naval forces from ANY type of air attack, I've given up on it and now rest all of my hopes on WIF.
I understand that the latest probable launch window is Spring 2009. Does that look to be real live human time or Postal Service time?


I've played DNO through once but it was way too much work keeping track of what was in each hex. Never got to the next one in the series.

The SPI Borodino we played a dozen times or so and while it favors the French, it requires a lot of skill to get all the troops into the battle at the right time. Loved the counters, and the redone map (2nd version) was quite nice too. - Yes I own both versions.

Just as an aside, Frank was part of the development team (of 3) on my second computer war game for GDW.
I beleive that game was called "La Bataille de la Moscova". Played it once and liked it, especially the way the counters were rendered. It was just too big and required too many players to make it work well enough to make it a regular weekly game night game. SPI did a game called Borodino but that was just a regular sized game. Did they do "La Bataille de la Moscova" as well?
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

In a related vein, we had a massive game going at about the same time of the SPI Borodino (cant remember now what it was called!) Another table filler, but we were using a house rule where no one could speak to anyone else except rules questions in the presence of the umpire and the enemy commander. All comunication was by written messages, delivered by aides moving on the map as aide'de camp counters. Played in real time (twenty minutes/side for movement) combat phases and housekeeping taking place "off the clock." Fought to a conclusion over a three day holiday. Unquestionably the most interesting and REALISTIC gameing experience of my life. Ended as a quivering, shattered mess after 72 hours of frustration, shock and WAY too much coffee. "[/i]
I've been watching this forum for about a year now, but never put my oar in, and unfortunately, now that the RTV game has gone down in flames IMO, primarily because the game designers refuse to do anything about the immunity of naval forces from ANY type of air attack, I've given up on it and now rest all of my hopes on WIF.
I understand that the latest probable launch window is Spring 2009. Does that look to be real live human time or Postal Service time?


I've played DNO through once but it was way too much work keeping track of what was in each hex. Never got to the next one in the series.

The SPI Borodino we played a dozen times or so and while it favors the French, it requires a lot of skill to get all the troops into the battle at the right time. Loved the counters, and the redone map (2nd version) was quite nice too. - Yes I own both versions.

Just as an aside, Frank was part of the development team (of 3) on my second computer war game for GDW.
I beleive that game was called "La Bataille de la Moscova". Played it once and liked it, especially the way the counters were rendered. It was just too big and required too many players to make it work well enough to make it a regular weekly game night game. SPI did a game called Borodino but that was just a regular sized game. Did they do "La Bataille de la Moscova" as well?
Ah, yes, I got the manufacturer's mixed up. I also liked the small SPI game called Borodino - playable in one sitting. La Bataille de la Moscova was rereleased with improved graphics for the map by GDW under the title Napoleon's Battle of Borodino. So I own (and have played a lot) all 3 of these games. My preferences have always been for Napoleonics, American Civil War, and WW II, with my favorite period depending upon my mood at the moment.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Michael the Pole »

I've been thinking about some of the more outrageous wastes of time we spent while waiting for our fathers to discover what our grades REALLY were during the early 70's at UT, such as the four months or so that we spent three or four nights a week plowing through The Campaign for North Africa, or the Christmas vacation irretriveably wasted playing Highway to the Reich.  And there was God knows how long we spent playing something about Napoleons 1809 (I think) Austrian campaign on a map covering a good chunk of magnetized wall.  But the REAL winner was most of a summer spent trying to play all of the Central Front WWIII games (Fifth Corps, Hoff Gap, North Germain Plain, and I seem to remember that there were at least a couple of more) together as a single campaign.  There weren't any real over-arching campaign rules, and we damn near commited mass fratricide during that little adventure.  Just the arguements over Army level OOBs made the Paris Peace Talks seem dull and simplistic.  Oh, if we'd only had access to nuclear weapons, none of us would have survived it!
And these children are worried about complexity![X(]
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by terje439 »

from JGN

Our group played several games of "Highway to the Reich" and "La Bataille de la Moscova".



A friend devoted a room for gaming purposes where we had a flat area for board games and one wall (covered in cork to allow pins to pierce the counters) for the paper map games. We evolved a system of "If you didn't show up someone else on your side moved your units". This caused interesting results.



One of our favorite MASSIVE games was Corps (USSR Army) level "Panzer Blitz" (16 copies of the game for the boards that were randomly placed). After the "Panzer Blitz" tournament at "Origins (Baltimore, Maryland 1975)" the game pieces were given to the players. So we traded off all our rare tank counters for truck counters until someone caught on to what we were doing.



Memorable events at "Origins (1975)":



I received a standing ovation by a large number of players in the "Richthofen's War" tournament when one my opponents loudly exclaimed "Argh!". My critical hit result on him turned out to be "Pilot Dead" (he would have had Ace status in the next round).

I placed in the top 4 in the "Panzer Blitz" tournament (I was the only one playing the German side to take the offensive while playing a defensive role).

A friend of mine, having bought a copy and read the rules at "Origins" of "Wooden Ships and Iron Men" ended up playing the developer and causing several rule changes.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Michael the Pole »

Oh, man, do I remember Origins in Baltimore!
My girl friend of almost two years gave me an ultimatum, "If I went to Baltimore, she wouldn't be there when I got back!" Told her to refrain from damaging the door as it struck her posterior aspect upon exiting the facility.[:D]
I cant remember sleeping less and enjoying it more in the last 54 years.
Where have all the old gamers gone?
"One scoundrel is a disgrace, two is a law-firm, and three or more is a Congress." B. Franklin

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RE: Complexity ?

Post by wfzimmerman »

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Oh, man, do I remember Origins in Baltimore!
My girl friend of almost two years gave me an ultimatum, "If I went to Baltimore, she wouldn't be there when I got back!" Told her to refrain from damaging the door as it struck her posterior aspect upon exiting the facility.[:D]
I cant remember sleeping less and enjoying it more in the last 54 years.
Where have all the old gamers gone?

I went to Origins in Baltimore in I believe 1974 with my friend Danny Wolf. We were 13. We stayed at my grandmother's in Alexandria, VA, took the train to Baltimore, and walked over to Johns Hopkins. We loved "War in the East" and Napoleonics. Looking back, I can't believe my parents let us go!
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

I went to 2 or 3 Origins in Baltimore and 1 on Staten Island. At the time I lived in Philadelphia and we just drove down to Baltimore for the day. For some reason we stayed at a motel on Staten Island. The person at the motel desk was surprised that we didn't want to rent the room by the hour - truly awesome accommodations.
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RE: Complexity ?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

I spent a day bringing my listings up-to-date (or mostly so). Some of the binders were full to bursting, which necessitated adding more binders - my total for MWIF is now 28 binders, with 11 of them 3 inch binders and the rest a mix of 1, 1.5, and 2 inch binders. I still haven't tapped out my supply of old binders from previous projects; I have over a dozen more empty ones available.

With so many binders, and hundreds of code modules, an index to identify what is where is essential. I also update the size of each module as part of this process, just so I have a tangible measure progress. I am now at 286,000 lines of code, up from 258,000 the last time I did this exercise (April 24, 2008). That works out to a net increase of 80+ lines of code a day. What isn't measured here are the deleted lines of code or those that are modified. Also, changes to the forms commonly have no effect on lines of code. Instead, Delphi stores them in DFM files (an internal Delphi format, not Pascal).

The major changes in the past 6 months that are visible in this 'analysis' are the 30+ new PhaseXXXX modules. Those collect all the branching logic for changing to a new phase into separate modules, one per phase. This structure lets me clearly handle changes in which major power is making decisions and keeping everyone informed for multiple player games. It will also make modifications to the sequence of play in support of PBEM, vastly simpler to do.

Here is my Binder Index (bold text is the name of the binder with a subtotal for # of lines of code):
====
Main (8,400)
Split (100)
Loan (100)
ChooseCarrier (550)
Distance (250)
DropOff (300)
OverStacked (250)
PickHQ (250)
PickSeaArea (150)
PlaneRole (250)
Reorganize (450)
SBLosses (300)
Section (500)
SelectUnits (1000)
USWar (150)
CAP (300)
AirDistance (200)
AirTransportLand (100)
UnitDialog (550)

MWIF Control (17,850)
Digressions (1100)
CentralControls (550)
WhoNeedsToDecide (750)
GameInProgress (3450)
GameControls (1600)
MessageControl (150)
Password (50)
PhaseControlProcs (1800)
SeqOfPlay (1400)
SimControl (5700)
SwitchPlayer (50)
WIFMessageID (1250)

NetPlay & PBEM (1,050)
Chat (400)
NewMessage (150)
NetData (200)
SendTo (200)
WIFMessage (100)
PBEM Design (10 pages)
PBEM Standing Orders (20 pages)

Loading MWIF & Saved Games (9,650)
BitmapProcs (250)
Cursors (50)
LoadStatus (200)
MWIFLoadBitmaps (900)
AggRiverBitmaps (300)
SavedSetups (650)
GameSaveRestore (7,050)
PaginateUnits (250)

Beginning (Game) Processing Sequence (19,700)
SplashScreen (650)
Start (1600)
Scenario (400)
OptionalRules (500)
OptionalRulesDescriptions (2600)
Player (850)
Bid (550)
GameData (2950)
Alternate (150)
ChangeControl (550)
InitGameVar (150)
TimeDate (100)
Politics (600)
SetupData (5450)
SetupGroups (450)
SetupUnitTypes (1300)
USEntryPool (850)

Beginning of Turn: Forms, Processing, & Phases (14,350)
LendLeaseAir (1100)
Scrap (2150)
Setup (3200)
StartChits (50)
FortHexside (200)
BreakDown (300)
SpecialSetupRules (100)
Lending (450)
Initiative (400)
MoveFirst (100)
WIFWeather (350)
WeatherReport (200)
DOWMajors (450)
DOWMinors (400)
WIFUSEntryAction (800)
Pact (1200)
PactOD (50)
PactMarkerMove (500)
PactMarkers (100)
Reserves (200)
AddMinorUnits (100)
DOWAlign (200)
Action (750)
ActionLimits (150)
PhaseObject (50)
PhaseReinforcements (650)
PhaseLending (150)

Impulse Phases (21,350)
PhaseDOW (1700)
PhaseChooseAction (150)
PhasePortAttack (2050)
PhaseNavalAir (200)
PhaseNavalMovement (300)
PhaseNavalCombatA (150)
PhaseNavalCombatD (150)
PhaseStrategicBombing (1900)
PhaseCarpetBombing (1900)
PhaseGroundStrike (1900)
PhaseRailMovement (200)
PhaseLandMovement (250)
PhaseAirTransport (2000)
PhaseUnloadLandUnits (150)
PhaseInvasion (150)
PhaseParadrop (1750)
PhaseLandCombatDeclaration (200)
PhaseNotional (200)
PhaseEmergencyHQSupply (200)
PhaseShoreBombardmentD (150)
PhaseShoreBombardmentA (150)
PhaseHQSupportD (150)
PhaseHQSupportA (150)
PhaseGroundSupport (2150)
PhaseLandCombatResolution (650)
PhaseAirRebase (200)
PhaseAirReorganization (1800)
PhaseHQReorganization (200)
PhaseNavalReorganization (200)
PhaseEndOfTurn (250)
AirMissionsProcs (400)
NavalCombatProcs (150)

End of Turn Phases & Forms (6,400)
Phase Partisans (450)
PhaseEntry (200)
PhaseUSEntry (150)
PhaseProductionPlanning (0)
PhaseStayAtSeaA (200)
PhaseStayAtSeaD (200)
PhaseReturnToBaseA (200)
PhaseReturnToBaseD (200)
PhaseUseOil (100)
PhaseFinalReorganization (150)
PhaseBreakDown (100)
PhaseNavalRepair (150)
PhaseProduction (0)
PhaseReform (100)
PhaseIntelligence (0)
PhaseUkraine (0)
PhaseConquest (50)
PhaseMinorSupport (100)
PhasePeace (100)
PhaseVichy (100)
PhaseLiberation (150)
PhaseSurrender (50)
PhaseFactoryDestruction (250)
PhaseVictory (200)
PhaseGameEnd (50)
Partisans (450)
UseOil (1000)
Broken (100)
Reform (250)
Conquest (500)
Vichy (850)

Game Record Logs (33,250)
RecordLogIDs (550)
RecordLogVar (550)
RecordLogRecords (5100)
RecordLogIn (6900)
RecordLogOut (6400)
RecordLogPrep (450)
RecordLogSetVar (200)
RecordLogSet (6550)
RecordLogUse (5200)
UseGRLProcs (1350)

Supply (3,400)
Supply (200)
DetermineSupply (1200)
SupplyLinks (900)
SupplySearches (1100)

Stacking (11,700)
Stack (3750)
MoveStack (7700)
StackProcs (100)
CVPClasses (150)

Movement & Combat (18,900)
AirAttack (1500)
AirCombat (4400)
AntiAir (600)
AntiAirCombat (650)
ChartLandCombat (250)
CommitSubs (150)
DestroyFactory (100)
UnitJudgment (650)
IgnoreNotional (150)
LandCombat (3100)
LandCombatHex (1200)
NavalCombat (1000)
NavalCombatIncludeType (650)
NavalCombatResults (1450)
NavalInterception (350)
Surprise (50)
SurprisePoints (1250)
TwoD10 (200)
USNavalCombat (150)
NavalCombatTables (450)
CombatResultsTables (600)

Maps, Resources, Factories, Production, & Trade (24,650)
Coast (150)
GlobalMap (1950)
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AI Strategic Plans (297 pages)
Common Decisions (94 pages)
China (4 pages)
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Germany (36 pages)
Italy (29 pages)
Japan (16 pages)
USA (25 pages)
USSR (26 pages)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.
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