basic BtR gameplay questions for vets

[penubly]

I bought an old copy of BtR that came without the manual, so I have been reading forum for info. I've searched the forum for the issues I raise below, but seek more substance.

Radar sites - Does it make sense to target these sites? There are so many, and I wonder if it's worth the effort.

Recon missions - When is info considered stale? Do you have to return to a site to determine repair/operational status?

Morale - Do units suffer morale issues when worked too hard, not hard enough or both?

Aircraft replacement - Does the game engine automatically redistribute pool aircraft based on losses?

Unused airfields - Is there any method for dispersing aircraft to other fields? What do you gain?

Effort Distribution - Does anyone have a good method for spreading the load; I want to be sure that I am balancing as much as possible.

Thanks for your assistance and patience!

Andy

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: penubly

I bought an old copy of BtR that came without the manual, so I have been reading forum for info. I've searched the forum for the issues I raise below, but seek more substance.

Radar sites - Does it make sense to target these sites? There are so many, and I wonder if it's worth the effort.

depends on what you want or are trying to do, you can click on the radar icon, and it will show what the radar range, circles cover, with out radar, you do blind the enemy some what, planes can still spot you, or once over land, the ground stuff can report you, a hole in the radar screen, cuts down on reaction time the enemy will have, and it is better to catch the enemy while they are climbing to attack, then with them already at alt and diving on you, there are lots of them, but you also got lots of bombers, fighterbombers, a good thing, they don't take much to take out, the bad thing, is they repair quicky



Recon missions - When is info considered stale? Do you have to return to a site to determine repair/operational status?

offhand I forget, but the dates are either 2 or 3 days to be seen as current, older then that, and it may be out of date, or a quess, which in the new verison, Harley being the sweet helpful sort that he is, also added in a higher chance for your recon to be wrong, but to make up for it, each recon plane can also take more then one photo along it's flight path, normally around 5 per mission
for bombing, yes, the more current, the better your results "should" be


Morale - Do units suffer morale issues when worked too hard, not hard enough or both?

Yes, on readyness status, flying missions, taking losses, those hurt, shooting down planes, damageing planes (enemy) those help, resting helps, commander helps also

Aircraft replacement - Does the game engine automatically redistribute pool aircraft based on losses?

ahhh, overall, would say, it replaces based on if the unit is below the number needed, and then based on the number in stock, so depending, some units make keep getting replacements, if they keep loseing planes, while others do not get any, because somebody else is getting them first, but if you have a supply, you should be good to go, and get replacements as you lose planes, lose more then you got, then it gets sticky


Unused airfields - Is there any method for dispersing aircraft to other fields? What do you gain?

is there a method ? well, you can move them ? also, a field with a unit on it, gets fuel, a field with out, does not, in new game, there are a lot more airfields around, so it should not be needed to have lots of planes on one field, which just makes it prime target, not sure if the answers your question ?

Effort Distribution - Does anyone have a good method for spreading the load; I want to be sure that I am balancing as much as possible.

not sure I follow your meaning on this one, if the enemy is sending 100 planes that fly past Rhodes everyday, basing some fighters there would help out, but if the enemy is not, then any fighters in the area, may be just out getting a suntan ?



Thanks for your assistance and patience!

Andy

[penubly]

Thanks for the info.

By spreading the load, I meant making sure to use all your available units.  How do you keep track of how many missions a unit has flown?  How do you compare numbers of missions flown between units?

[Alfred]

Go to the unit screen and look up the pilots assigned to that unit.  The number of missions flown by the pilots is listed.  That will give you an idea as to how many missions have been flown by that unit.
 
Also recon info is stale after 2 days ie a recon photo is good only for the day it is taken and the following day.
 
Alfred

[kaybayray]

Penubly,
I have found that if I do not rotate my units out of action at some interval their morale falters as well as their performance. I see an increase in losses as well. Not being a long time verteran of this game I cant really advise what interval is best, however I have noted that if I dont rotate a unit out of action every few days they degrade.

I believe I have also observed a performance limit when Morale hits 50%. I believe I see a drastic reduction in effectiveness and an increase in losses at that point. So currently I am using that as a guide to stand a unit down when their Morale hits 50% regardless of when they flew their last mission.

I believe the interval of rotation is a function of the type and difficulty of missions flown, or something similar.

Later,
KayBay

[vils]

i used to do just that, keeping morale above 50% simply see below 50 as inoperable aircraft.. especially hvy bombers since they tend to return 2-early the lower morale they has, meaning more free targets for the luftwaffe..
 
*sigh* accidently erased my ongoing game recently it was almost the end of entire campaign.. played it for over 1 year gone to the dogs grrr
 
 
 

[von Shagmeister]

Another morale related issue.

In the game every time a unit is moved it loses ~10% morale. I think this is excessive as in real life the Lw and RAF constantly moved units around without adverse effects on operational efficiency. As the defending player in both BoB and BTR it's vital to keep units near the front moving as they are constanly targetted on the ground, however regularly moving them ruins their morale making them easier targets in the air.

[kaybayray]

Penubly,

Here are some things I have seen and do.

Radar Sites: I have had more success (IMO) with shutting down sites that have radar rings out over the channel as compared to those inland. By this I mean that shutting down coastal area sites has more significant impact on Luftwaffe reaction than shutting down those further inland. By shutting down those rings that extend out over the channel I have seen more success with targets closer to the coast. I believe it is because by clearing radar detection on my lanes of approach to these targets greatly reduces the Luftwaffes' ability to detect and react. Where targets that are further inland this effect is completely negated. After flying over 30 minutes into enemy territory I dont think radar is significant as far as detection is. However it may make interception easier. I dont have enough time over inland targets at this time to accuratly say whether it makes a real difference. Sorry I am still pretty much a newb here. Still working on my first campaign and in 1943 still.

Recon Missions: I have found that repair times for targets is pretty slow other than radar sites. So I dont focus on sending Recon to industrial targets very often unless I am investigating for a pending mission or if I am looking to update their overall operational status after a period of time. So I have been applying two basic strategies here. For Radar sites I assume they are operational and if I think shutting them down for a particular mission is needed I will strike them then launch missions through their area of coverage. For other targets (Industrial and Air Fields) I use recon to detect the presence of Flak units/Aircraft or concentration and the overall level of damage.



Other Topics: Hard Sarge and Swift as well as many others have provided a lot of great insight on this thread as well as many others on this forum. I spend a lot of time reading through them to glean some understanding. I also try to read some historical information because this game is pretty well put together and has (IMO) a good level of accuracy. However I have found that the areas that are the most troubeling for me are Timing, Strike Force Management, Strike Operational Doctrine.

Strike Force Management: By this I mean what units do I place in each strike that I organize for a days mission or for a series of missions on a single day or over some period of time.

Strike Operational Doctrine: By this I mean what flight path/altitude does each strike or strike component take to and from their target.

Timing: By this I mean at what time do I want each strike or strike component where on the map on both the flights into targets and returnging from targets.

If I were doing all three of these very well I would probably not be the Engineer that I am but rather would be a commander in our Armed Forces instead. [8D] But since I find these topics difficult I am forced to work in the Private Sector in anonimity and insignificance. [8D]

Once I get these things worked out I will be able to give the Lufwaffe a right good thrashing!!! [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[jjjanos]

Fatigue is very important. I believe morale impacts whether a unit will engage and the likelihood of turning/running. Fatigue impacts how well they do in combat - defensive, offensive, bombing - and how likely they will fly a plane into the ground - very important for Bomber Command as night flying/landing is extremely tiring.
 
Low morale is poorly correlated with fatigue.  A unit that takes lots of losses from stranglers might not be fatigued - e.g. those that didn't straggle didn't get engaged - but it may have very low morale - those losses hurt the survivor's morale. Combat hurts fatigue, but having a good mission raises morale.
 
Fatigue recovers quickly, but morale won't. Not using low morale units is almost useless since morale takes a virtual eternity to recover in the game if left to time. You'll find that lots of slackers with low morale, but perfectly rested.

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: jjjanos


Fatigue recovers quickly, but morale won't. Not using low morale units is almost useless since morale takes a virtual eternity to recover in the game if left to time. You'll find that lots of slackers with low morale, but perfectly rested.

What I do with low morale units, is have them bomb undefended targets or fly above the light flak, 14.5K, and try to get a couple of good missions with no losses. This seems to get morale back up to a respectable level.

But, the commander's stats are very important! Some units, with poor commanders, have to be flown till you can get a replacement CO.

Hmm, imagine being able to replace "poor" commanders?[&o]

[Hard Sarge]

for commanders, I was able to get Harley to change how the game handled it (well, I wanted it done one way, he came up with a different and better way)

so, leaders should be better then before, and the glitch of units running out of leaders is gone

also, not sure how much we have talked about it, but we changed the way combat figures out who is doing the attacking/defending, so the losses of the Unit Co is much more random now then it had been, leaders can and should still take a pounding at times, but mostly, the odds are better the Co's will stick around longer

(still love the story of a 8th AF BG CO who went for a flight in a Mossies, so he could watch his unit in action, during the mission, the mossie came in a little too close to the group, and one of the gunners shot it down, CO and pilot ending up in a POW camp, after the war, his only complaint was that he didn't know for sure if it was a mistake or not !!!!)

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

Penubly,

Here are some things I have seen and do.

Radar Sites: I have had more success (IMO) with shutting down sites that have radar rings out over the channel as compared to those inland. By this I mean that shutting down coastal area sites has more significant impact on Luftwaffe reaction than shutting down those further inland. By shutting down those rings that extend out over the channel I have seen more success with targets closer to the coast. I believe it is because by clearing radar detection on my lanes of approach to these targets greatly reduces the Luftwaffes' ability to detect and react. Where targets that are further inland this effect is completely negated. After flying over 30 minutes into enemy territory I dont think radar is significant as far as detection is. However it may make interception easier. I dont have enough time over inland targets at this time to accuratly say whether it makes a real difference. Sorry I am still pretty much a newb here. Still working on my first campaign and in 1943 still.

well, remember for Radar and detection, there are other ways to tell then Radar, the old Mark One eyeball and such (you did have sound detection too, besides radio and other reporting stations, so yea, once over land, you going to get spotted and kept in detail about what you are doing

but blinding inland radar is more importent for BC then for daylight bombing


Recon Missions: I have found that repair times for targets is pretty slow other than radar sites. So I dont focus on sending Recon to industrial targets very often unless I am investigating for a pending mission or if I am looking to update their overall operational status after a period of time. So I have been applying two basic strategies here. For Radar sites I assume they are operational and if I think shutting them down for a particular mission is needed I will strike them then launch missions through their area of coverage. For other targets (Industrial and Air Fields) I use recon to detect the presence of Flak units/Aircraft or concentration and the overall level of damage.

ahhhh, most of the old timers I think would disagree with you, recon is importent, and needs to be kept up, your bombing will suffer, and other things besides Radar have faster repair rates (some reason Ports don't like to repair ?) and we have added extra photos to a recon bird, so when it flies a mission, it has a chance to take I think it is 5 extra snaps, this makes it a lot easier to get info with out spending lots of plotting time doing it

also, remember the Allies (LW in BoB) really have some pretty bad intell info on the enemy, really, it does not even pay to look at the target data on the first turn as the Allies, a pretty good bet it is wrong

and, a RED target on the Allied map, may be a 0 damaged target to the Enemy, until you look at it, will you know for sure (and nice old Harley, also added a chance that the recon bird may get bad info)

Other Topics: Hard Sarge and Swift as well as many others have provided a lot of great insight on this thread as well as many others on this forum. I spend a lot of time reading through them to glean some understanding. I also try to read some historical information because this game is pretty well put together and has (IMO) a good level of accuracy. However I have found that the areas that are the most troubeling for me are Timing, Strike Force Management, Strike Operational Doctrine.

How do you mean troubling ? from the game side, or from the player side ? (I remember I was trying to get my mate at work into the game and we played a PBEM game, and I slaughtered 2 of his RCM Squadrons, 24 Wellies down, went to work and asked what he was doing flying them during the day, and of course, his answer was, I don't know what a Wellie is !

Strike Force Management: By this I mean what units do I place in each strike that I organize for a days mission or for a series of missions on a single day or over some period of time.

Strike Operational Doctrine: By this I mean what flight path/altitude does each strike or strike component take to and from their target.

Timing: By this I mean at what time do I want each strike or strike component where on the map on both the flights into targets and returnging from targets.

Biggest thing here is, play style, do you want to overwelm one spot in the defence, or do you want to spead the defence out, do you want to, are you sending decoys or faints out, are you trying to bait the enemy or to bull rush them ?, I would really like to be able to put a ToT on each of the waypoints, but so far, Harley has had too much else to work on, to even get him to snarl about it

(we have a number of lists set up, I ask Harley for something and he tells me to put it on the list, but, we got that sounds doable, or hmmm, that sounds interesting, or maybe, if I could make it work, or GREESH PUT IT ON THE LIST (those are the ones I know not to push too HARD for, but got to admit, a couple of those made it into the game already


If I were doing all three of these very well I would probably not be the Engineer that I am but rather would be a commander in our Armed Forces instead. [8D] But since I find these topics difficult I am forced to work in the Private Sector in anonimity and insignificance. [8D]

Once I get these things worked out I will be able to give the Lufwaffe a right good thrashing!!! [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[harley]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
Biggest thing here is, play style, do you want to overwelm one spot in the defence, or do you want to spead the defence out, do you want to, are you sending decoys or faints out, are you trying to bait the enemy or to bull rush them ?, I would really like to be able to put a ToT on each of the waypoints, but so far, Harley has had too much else to work on, to even get him to snarl about it

Heey! No fair! Oh... wait...

(we have a number of lists set up, I ask Harley for something and he tells me to put it on the list, but, we got that sounds doable, or hmmm, that sounds interesting, or maybe, if I could make it work, or GREESH PUT IT ON THE LIST (those are the ones I know not to push too HARD for, but got to admit, a couple of those made it into the game already [/b]

In all fairness I haven't told you to put something on the list in the last 3 months...

I suspect thats cos you know I'll snarl at you, so you don't ask...

harley...

<still smarting from the "sweet" comment in May>

[TechSgt]

Waypoint ToT!&nbsp; Great!
&nbsp;
That means it will be easier for my fighter sweeps to line up with the bomber streams!&nbsp; Oh, oh,&nbsp;that also means the intruders and RCM timing will be much tighter, too!&nbsp; The defenders won't know what hit 'em? [:D]
&nbsp;
Hmmm...
This also will mean that the defender(s) will be given something, also!!!&nbsp; [&:]
&nbsp;
&nbsp;

[TechSgt]

ORIGINAL: penubly

Thanks for the info.

By spreading the load, I meant making sure to use all your available units.  How do you keep track of how many missions a unit has flown?  How do you compare numbers of missions flown between units?

What I do, I'm the attacker, is to put ALL units on a 4 day rotation. This is in '44 when the Allies have built up a sizable force. During poorer weather, only that day's units will fly. During very good weather, I may use up to three days worth of units. Tomorrow's units are never used.

[kaybayray]

[Quote]
Hey Sarge [8D]

Recon Missions: I have found that repair times for targets is pretty slow other than radar sites. So I dont focus on sending Recon to industrial targets very often unless I am investigating for a pending mission or if I am looking to update their overall operational status after a period of time. So I have been applying two basic strategies here. For Radar sites I assume they are operational and if I think shutting them down for a particular mission is needed I will strike them then launch missions through their area of coverage. For other targets (Industrial and Air Fields) I use recon to detect the presence of Flak units/Aircraft or concentration and the overall level of damage.

ahhhh, most of the old timers I think would disagree with you, recon is importent, and needs to be kept up, your bombing will suffer, and other things besides Radar have faster repair rates (some reason Ports don't like to repair ?) and we have added extra photos to a recon bird, so when it flies a mission, it has a chance to take I think it is 5 extra snaps, this makes it a lot easier to get info with out spending lots of plotting time doing it
[End Quote]

Please dont misunderstand me. I use recon a lot because it is very important. However what I am saying is that I dont for example sent recon every day to a factory I hit last month to monitor repairs. I use it over time on previously hit targets to maintain my damage thresholds on them and I use it for threat assessment as well as exploring new targets in line with my overall strategy.
[8D]

[Quote]
Other Topics: Hard Sarge and Swift as well as many others have provided a lot of great insight on this thread as well as many others on this forum. I spend a lot of time reading through them to glean some understanding. I also try to read some historical information because this game is pretty well put together and has (IMO) a good level of accuracy. However I have found that the areas that are the most troubeling for me are Timing, Strike Force Management, Strike Operational Doctrine.

How do you mean troubling ? from the game side, or from the player side ? (I remember I was trying to get my mate at work into the game and we played a PBEM game, and I slaughtered 2 of his RCM Squadrons, 24 Wellies down, went to work and asked what he was doing flying them during the day, and of course, his answer was, I don't know what a Wellie is !
[End Quote]

I mean troubleing for me. Giving us TOT for each waypoint would be a Godsend IMHO. I forunately have a strong mathematics background so I tend to make my own TOT estimates and try to adjust mission launch times accordingly so that I have some level of mission coordination. The idea being that by organizing my missions within a region I can minimize the Luftwaffes' ability to concentrate on one group and spread their defense out thereby optimizing my strike survival ratio. [8D]


Please dont misunderstand me. I do not go about playing this game as if it were an Arcade game. IMHO this is a very hard core strategy and tactical simulation of the Air War in Euorpe of WWII. I appreciate very much all the efforts that you Sarge, Harley, Swift and all the other are putting into this. I am trying to learn how to play it better because it is not a trivial game. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

Waypoint ToT! Great!

That means it will be easier for my fighter sweeps to line up with the bomber streams! Oh, oh, that also means the intruders and RCM timing will be much tighter, too! The defenders won't know what hit 'em? [:D]

Hmmm...
This also will mean that the defender(s) will be given something, also!!! [&:]

LOL, well as I said, it is on the list, just not sure which list it is assigned to right now, but it is something I would like very much to get in

I could always give the Axis the Natter ?

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

ORIGINAL: penubly

Thanks for the info.

By spreading the load, I meant making sure to use all your available units. How do you keep track of how many missions a unit has flown? How do you compare numbers of missions flown between units?

What I do, I'm the attacker, is to put ALL units on a 4 day rotation. This is in '44 when the Allies have built up a sizable force. During poorer weather, only that day's units will fly. During very good weather, I may use up to three days worth of units. Tomorrow's units are never used.

well in the North, I know some people like to set up there raids based on plane model, so day one, B-17s will fly, on day two, the 17s rest and the 24's fly

in the Med, the balance of 17s to 24 gets out of wack very early on, so HARDer to set up this way

[Hard Sarge]

KayBay

I understand and agree

just doing some debateing

[kaybayray]

Hey NP Sarge [:D]

I love your comments and advice. You have really taught me a lot about this and several other games on the Matrix menu. Always great asking you and the others for your thoughts and experiences. Makes the games more interesting. Learned a lot about history as well. [8D]

And Sarge if you ever think I am ticked off at you, please read my comments again cause I am sure that I am not. Even though the text of my statement may sound like it. I am just a bit too blunt many times. [8D]

This is one of those games where the actual war it represents takes less time to carry out than the game does to play out. [8D]


Please keep the debate and comments going. It is very helpful. [8D]

Later,
KayBay