I would like to ask all of you, what do you think about amount of action points.
Don't you have feeling that Panzers have a little to much of them?
How many Action Points
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doomtrader
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RE: How many Action Points
ORIGINAL: doomtrader
I would like to ask all of you, what do you think about amount of action points.
Don't you have feeling that Panzers have a little to much of them?
They are very mobile, but early in the war that was their strongest point. In the latter years they were slowed down by Allied Air Power!
Aside from that, I applaud you team in working to improve this game [8D]
Tony
RE: How many Action Points
The action points seem about right. However, the cost for moving into/through/out of a zone of control is too light. If I have it right, currently there is only a one AP point penalty for moving 'into' a ZOC. Probably should add a cost for moving 'out of', also. Moving directly from one ZOC into another should be even costlier.
Perhaps also the mech/armor cost through mountains is too low.
Perhaps also the mech/armor cost through mountains is too low.
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James Ward
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RE: How many Action Points
ORIGINAL: gwgardner
The action points seem about right. However, the cost for moving into/through/out of a zone of control is too light. If I have it right, currently there is only a one AP point penalty for moving 'into' a ZOC. Probably should add a cost for moving 'out of', also. Moving directly from one ZOC into another should be even costlier.
Perhaps also the mech/armor cost through mountains is too low.
Yes the ZOC costs seem low. Perhaps upping them a little bit will also help the AI in maintaining a 'retreating' line in Russia.
RE: How many Action Points
Interesting points!
I think the zoc costs are about right. Moving from one zoc to another already costs 3 MP, and for a 2-3 infantry this means no combat if they move one hex. No offensive combat for that week, or longer depending on the season. The action points are already reduced for distance from supplies. I am not interested in trench warfare simulations.
The engine which drives this whole game is the Axis belief that they could win a war against Poland, France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. When was the last time you played the Allied Powers and were beaten by the Axis? Giving the AI stronger Soviets, hobbling the Axis, in fact every move to allow the AI to challenge the Axis make the game very boring for the Allied side. My Allies stand at the border and invite the Axis to "make their day" now. Play balance in a WW2 simulation is tough. Subtle changes can have a big effect. Could we perhaps allow modding of more factors, for example one game change I would like to explore is allowing the enduser/modder access to action points and movement costs. If this were parameterized and the user could use a map editor to establish new terrain costs, terrain types, and a unit editor for unit types I think it would be fun, but this is "pie in the sky" just now, but imagine a palette of 40 action points for an infantry division, and terrain costs of 10 for a "normal" and 8 for a hex near an urban center, and so on. This would allow for some subtle changes including linking attack stength with Action Points remaining.
One rule I propose changing right now is that any unit, in any situation be allowed to move one hex. I can not think of any reason for those Italian units stuck on the border with France because they do not have enough action points to move month after month. There might have to be exceptions, but these could be made. I also wonder about the prohibition on strategic movement in peacetime. Then again I wonder about a lot of things.
Just some thoughts on this great game.
Chuck
I think the zoc costs are about right. Moving from one zoc to another already costs 3 MP, and for a 2-3 infantry this means no combat if they move one hex. No offensive combat for that week, or longer depending on the season. The action points are already reduced for distance from supplies. I am not interested in trench warfare simulations.
Perhaps upping them a little bit will also help the AI in maintaining a 'retreating' line in Russia.
The engine which drives this whole game is the Axis belief that they could win a war against Poland, France, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. When was the last time you played the Allied Powers and were beaten by the Axis? Giving the AI stronger Soviets, hobbling the Axis, in fact every move to allow the AI to challenge the Axis make the game very boring for the Allied side. My Allies stand at the border and invite the Axis to "make their day" now. Play balance in a WW2 simulation is tough. Subtle changes can have a big effect. Could we perhaps allow modding of more factors, for example one game change I would like to explore is allowing the enduser/modder access to action points and movement costs. If this were parameterized and the user could use a map editor to establish new terrain costs, terrain types, and a unit editor for unit types I think it would be fun, but this is "pie in the sky" just now, but imagine a palette of 40 action points for an infantry division, and terrain costs of 10 for a "normal" and 8 for a hex near an urban center, and so on. This would allow for some subtle changes including linking attack stength with Action Points remaining.
One rule I propose changing right now is that any unit, in any situation be allowed to move one hex. I can not think of any reason for those Italian units stuck on the border with France because they do not have enough action points to move month after month. There might have to be exceptions, but these could be made. I also wonder about the prohibition on strategic movement in peacetime. Then again I wonder about a lot of things.
Just some thoughts on this great game.
Chuck
RE: How many Action Points
ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung
Interesting points!
I think the zoc costs are about right. Moving from one zoc to another already costs 3 MP, and for a 2-3 infantry this means no combat if they move one hex. No offensive combat for that week, or longer depending on the season. The action points are already reduced for distance from supplies. I am not interested in trench warfare simulations.
Perhaps upping them a little bit will also help the AI in maintaining a 'retreating' line in Russia.
Could we perhaps allow modding of more factors, for example one game change I would like to explore is allowing the enduser/modder access to action points and movement costs. If this were parameterized and the user could use a map editor to establish new terrain costs, terrain types, and a unit editor for unit types I think it would be fun, but this is "pie in the sky" just now, but imagine a palette of 40 action points for an infantry division, and terrain costs of 10 for a "normal" and 8 for a hex near an urban center, and so on. This would allow for some subtle changes including linking attack stength with Action Points remaining.
Actually, unless I understand you wrong, most of these things can be changed the way you like. It's all in the consts.csv-file. We have changed the ZoC for infantry and motorized to 3 and ZoC cost for armour to 2. I'm not sure if you can meddle with a clear hex, though, and you can't change the map.
RE: How many Action Points
Very interesting! I am in the beta test program just now, so I am playing with the beta as released, but as soon as I can I am going to tear into some mods, and events. I am having a ball as it is, and the thought of "having it my way" sounds fun. You re lucky to have a PBEMer who can test your mods with you.
Thanks for the tips.
Chuck
Thanks for the tips.
Chuck
RE: How many Action Points
If you give me your e-mail-adress through personal messages, I can mail you the scenario to play around with. [:)]
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doomtrader
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RE: How many Action Points
Uxbridge, if you like you can always share with your modifications and ideas. We are planning for another large update so any good are welcome.
RE: How many Action Points
Good ideas? Well, I have a couple of thousands. Biggest problem is time to write everything down. Hours comes in very short supply in my life these days.
This morning I mailed the scenario to cdpdeyoung. I wrote him a hasty list of changes and I will quote that list, slightly improved, below. If there's something you like there and want to know more about, just ask. If you want to have a look at the revised scenario, just tell me where to send it. [:)]
This is some changes I made to the scenario. It’s just roughly explained here, taken on top of my head. Note that it’s only for PBEM. You can’t play with the AI on for any of the majors. The game will simply turn mad.
Since I have changed the colour scheme of the units, I will also give you the unit counters-file. Play with units, or I think it will look rather strange.
ZoC is, as I mentioned earlier, much more prohibitive. Thus it is possibly to hold a line even if you only have units to cover half of the hexes. Armour and motorized units will break through without combat, however, thus highlighting those unit’s historical movement characteristics.
You do no longer have to attack with odds higher than 3-1 to have a chance of success, even 2-1 can achieve that; but the attacks will still be very costly for the attacker. Attacks at high odds will reduce attackers losses, however. My intention is to avoid a rigid front line were hexes are few.
The possibility of an enemy retreat after combat is much increased; this is especially true if the same enemy unit is below 100 % strength.
The losses in air combat have been downgraded to give a more attritional effect. It takes several turns to outfight an enemy air force.
The losses in air vs ground combat have also been downgraded and for the same reason.
All majors starts with a number of free cadre units that represent these nations' basic manpower force and its ability to produce certain type of units. Some of these are "empty" and have to be filled with men and equipment, upgraded and turned into corps (if the player wants this). The cadre units may not be deployed until their time is due. This is reflected in their names ("40" may be deployed in January 1940, "June 40" not until that month, etc). This is true even for ships.
There’s a house rule that producing a combat unit from scratch will cause a severe penalty in PP (listed in the beginning of the scenario). This is to reflect the deterioration of manpower in the later part of the war and to force the player to be very carefull with the units he gets at start.
The OOB has been streamlined. The units are simply named from "1" and upwards. Since the game is very rigid in the composition of the units and the one-unit/one-hex puts a rather severe limitation on historical accuracy anyway, no such extravaganza as a true OOB is necessary. Some semi-historical units exist, but that is for fun only.
Germany have a number of very strong units at the beginning. They do, in some cases, even start with better equipment than they can actually yet produce. This is not to represent what it seems to be in a game-wise sense, but rather the total superiority in combat philosophy the Germans held at the outbreak of the war – an advantage they never really lost. To somewhat offset this advantage game-wise, the German initial PP allocation has been taken down a bit. The German player must nurse these units carefully in the beginning, or this advantage will be lost premanently.
The Russian production has been re-located, so that Germany will have some gains while advancing.
The British economy has been re-located much from UK to the Middle East, to give the Axis an incentive for a greater effort there. It reflects the communications with the empire and the Iraqian oil.
Germany have two resource hexes representing the Romanian oil and the Scandinavian iron ore. The "Romanian resource", for an example, starts at –10, meaning that Germany will automatically suffer 10 PP’s from her total each game turn. When France fall, and Germany becomes almost the sole trading partner with Romania when it comes to oil, the German player can access the cities.csv-file and change the setting to "0". This ends the German penalty for not having control of Romania. Should Romania surrender to USSR, though, the German player must again change the setting, this time to –20.
There's a number of lesser changes as well, but this is all I can think of for the time ...
This morning I mailed the scenario to cdpdeyoung. I wrote him a hasty list of changes and I will quote that list, slightly improved, below. If there's something you like there and want to know more about, just ask. If you want to have a look at the revised scenario, just tell me where to send it. [:)]
This is some changes I made to the scenario. It’s just roughly explained here, taken on top of my head. Note that it’s only for PBEM. You can’t play with the AI on for any of the majors. The game will simply turn mad.
Since I have changed the colour scheme of the units, I will also give you the unit counters-file. Play with units, or I think it will look rather strange.
ZoC is, as I mentioned earlier, much more prohibitive. Thus it is possibly to hold a line even if you only have units to cover half of the hexes. Armour and motorized units will break through without combat, however, thus highlighting those unit’s historical movement characteristics.
You do no longer have to attack with odds higher than 3-1 to have a chance of success, even 2-1 can achieve that; but the attacks will still be very costly for the attacker. Attacks at high odds will reduce attackers losses, however. My intention is to avoid a rigid front line were hexes are few.
The possibility of an enemy retreat after combat is much increased; this is especially true if the same enemy unit is below 100 % strength.
The losses in air combat have been downgraded to give a more attritional effect. It takes several turns to outfight an enemy air force.
The losses in air vs ground combat have also been downgraded and for the same reason.
All majors starts with a number of free cadre units that represent these nations' basic manpower force and its ability to produce certain type of units. Some of these are "empty" and have to be filled with men and equipment, upgraded and turned into corps (if the player wants this). The cadre units may not be deployed until their time is due. This is reflected in their names ("40" may be deployed in January 1940, "June 40" not until that month, etc). This is true even for ships.
There’s a house rule that producing a combat unit from scratch will cause a severe penalty in PP (listed in the beginning of the scenario). This is to reflect the deterioration of manpower in the later part of the war and to force the player to be very carefull with the units he gets at start.
The OOB has been streamlined. The units are simply named from "1" and upwards. Since the game is very rigid in the composition of the units and the one-unit/one-hex puts a rather severe limitation on historical accuracy anyway, no such extravaganza as a true OOB is necessary. Some semi-historical units exist, but that is for fun only.
Germany have a number of very strong units at the beginning. They do, in some cases, even start with better equipment than they can actually yet produce. This is not to represent what it seems to be in a game-wise sense, but rather the total superiority in combat philosophy the Germans held at the outbreak of the war – an advantage they never really lost. To somewhat offset this advantage game-wise, the German initial PP allocation has been taken down a bit. The German player must nurse these units carefully in the beginning, or this advantage will be lost premanently.
The Russian production has been re-located, so that Germany will have some gains while advancing.
The British economy has been re-located much from UK to the Middle East, to give the Axis an incentive for a greater effort there. It reflects the communications with the empire and the Iraqian oil.
Germany have two resource hexes representing the Romanian oil and the Scandinavian iron ore. The "Romanian resource", for an example, starts at –10, meaning that Germany will automatically suffer 10 PP’s from her total each game turn. When France fall, and Germany becomes almost the sole trading partner with Romania when it comes to oil, the German player can access the cities.csv-file and change the setting to "0". This ends the German penalty for not having control of Romania. Should Romania surrender to USSR, though, the German player must again change the setting, this time to –20.
There's a number of lesser changes as well, but this is all I can think of for the time ...
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doomtrader
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RE: How many Action Points
Looks like pretty nice changes.
Some of them might be implemented to the singleplayer game.
Of course i would be glad to see the scenario, if you would be so kind, please sent it doomtrader[at]bitterglory.com
Some of them might be implemented to the singleplayer game.
Of course i would be glad to see the scenario, if you would be so kind, please sent it doomtrader[at]bitterglory.com
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doomtrader
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RE: How many Action Points
ORIGINAL: Uxbridge
All majors starts with a number of free cadre units that represent these nations' basic manpower force and its ability to produce certain type of units. Some of these are "empty" and have to be filled with men and equipment, upgraded and turned into corps (if the player wants this). The cadre units may not be deployed until their time is due. This is reflected in their names ("40" may be deployed in January 1940, "June 40" not until that month, etc). This is true even for ships.
Now you cann add units to the force pool via events.