I agree with you Les. I usually stay away from political and religious debate despite my firm belief that such debates are necessary and healthy. Perhaps my response was a bit "knee-jerk". However, my purpose was not to single out one person. I was mainly trying to illustrate to all that crying wolf when there is no wolf is a cheap shot and deminisihes credibility. Freedom of speech means different things to different people, that is obvious, but being a regular reader of many forums, I have seen absolutely no indication of infringement on the Matrix forums or any other forums. Quite to the contrary, I've seen an increase in public opinion on all sides of the political spectrum. Once again, I state that criticism is not infringement. Without it, debate would be impossible.
Having said that, I am a bit surprised that others have not taken the opportunity to criticize me for my, I'll admit, abrupt reply. But then I'll also acknowledge that cooler heads just may prevail and perhaps, wisely, just want to let this issue rest.
Either way, I still stand by my conviction that freedom of speech is alive and well, and will continue to be so.
Wish I could remember the quote buy Ben Franklin about those that would trade liberties for security deserving neither. And I wish I'd changed my signature quote to something more appropriate for this post.
SP:MBT Mouse problem!
Moderator: maddog986
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
You seem to have a good grasp of things Dave.
Mature to me is knowing that we can't always get what we want.
Therefore if follows, those that appear to espouse attitudes that run contrary to that realistic reality, seem to lack a certain level of maturity.
I have often likened Utopian ideals as lacking maturity for instance (it's pure folly to look for something that you just can't have).
I additionally find for instance the NDP party here in Canada to be an immature form of government (they ran Ontario into the ground pretending you can always give people what they want).
Being able to look life in the face, and know that a lot of it is neither unfair or fair is a sign the individual has finally gotten the point.
Life is just life. It's just random fate I am sitting here and not in some wretched impoverished country.
But that could change tomorrow.
People need to appreciate the freedoms they have, because in most cases, its just luck. Freedom isn't a right. it's just something some of us are blessed with more so than others.
And it seems the more freedoms some people have, the less they appreciate their worth.
For the record, Fybromyalgia took away my right to work and enjoy the heady rush of earning a good living. Am I resentful, no.
Life is about getting used to not always getting what we want.
Mature to me is knowing that we can't always get what we want.
Therefore if follows, those that appear to espouse attitudes that run contrary to that realistic reality, seem to lack a certain level of maturity.
I have often likened Utopian ideals as lacking maturity for instance (it's pure folly to look for something that you just can't have).
I additionally find for instance the NDP party here in Canada to be an immature form of government (they ran Ontario into the ground pretending you can always give people what they want).
Being able to look life in the face, and know that a lot of it is neither unfair or fair is a sign the individual has finally gotten the point.
Life is just life. It's just random fate I am sitting here and not in some wretched impoverished country.
But that could change tomorrow.
People need to appreciate the freedoms they have, because in most cases, its just luck. Freedom isn't a right. it's just something some of us are blessed with more so than others.
And it seems the more freedoms some people have, the less they appreciate their worth.
For the record, Fybromyalgia took away my right to work and enjoy the heady rush of earning a good living. Am I resentful, no.
Life is about getting used to not always getting what we want.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Les,
Amazing. My girlfriend was diagnosed with fybromyalgia a little over a year ago and MS is also a possibility. She too is trying to live on disability. Unfortunately, I fully understand your situation. I have had quite an eye-opening education in government provided benefits for the disabled. Most of the population, and I can only speak for the US, have nearly no understanding of the plight of the disabled. We have some good programs, but much more is needed and there are way too many misguided myths about the disabled and the benefits they recieve. I guess the only upside to this is that, more than ever, I realize how very fortunate I am that I'm healthy and working.
Amazing. My girlfriend was diagnosed with fybromyalgia a little over a year ago and MS is also a possibility. She too is trying to live on disability. Unfortunately, I fully understand your situation. I have had quite an eye-opening education in government provided benefits for the disabled. Most of the population, and I can only speak for the US, have nearly no understanding of the plight of the disabled. We have some good programs, but much more is needed and there are way too many misguided myths about the disabled and the benefits they recieve. I guess the only upside to this is that, more than ever, I realize how very fortunate I am that I'm healthy and working.
“You're only young once but you can be immature for as long as you want”
spmbt patch available
Hello,
Spmbt v1.01 patch is available for download at:
http://www.wargamer.com/spcammo/page4.asp
Regards
Mikimoto
Spmbt v1.01 patch is available for download at:
http://www.wargamer.com/spcammo/page4.asp
Regards
Mikimoto
Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Ok guess I should have just used the link first and looked.
This is what I saw at the SPCammo site
The SPMBTv1.01 Patch contains a large number of OOB corrections as well as code changes to fix a Y2K bug in the campaign generator. A 26,000 point cap has been placed on defender purchases which will now allow the attacker to purchase the correct proportion of points. Plus, there is a fix for a bug that was appearing when mixed cluster and HE missions were plotted simultaneously and another fix for a bug that was not giving the correct base experience ratings for various nations
Were the programmers sleeping while they worked? What will I be reading about next week? Did the guys not even pay the slightest attention to all the lessons learned by Matrix?
But hey what do ya know, it won't download at any rate (I am not shocked somehow).
I thought hmmm why not try some of the other downloads there.
Downloaded each and every download they had there in mere seconds. Problem was I didn't need any of those.
But the actual patch....nope no deal.
A real pain is all I can say I guess.
Just what IS the problem there? Is their server so abyssmally worthless it can't handle the traffic? If this is all a person has to look forward to from them then they will never see any financial assistance from me.
What bothers me with the patch, is the things that were required to be fixed.
Now don't go tarring and feathering me, but while I have heard the AI is supposed to be nice in SPMBTv1, I am NOT playing the version X game. Updates, patches, bug fixes, nope it isn't going to happen.
Free, no please don't go on about it being free. We all know it's free. But time is money to some.
SPWaW is also free. And yes it went through numerous updates, patches, and bug fixes (and I am not saying I was always entirely thrilled with it there either).
Main difference with SPMBTv1 over SPWaw SPMBTv1 is still the same DOS dinosaur it was when they began fiddling with it.
It isn't going to get raves from me, if it pretends to be an equal to SPWaW when in truth it is at best an ugly cousin.
I think it's an "ok" game currently, but I will downgrade that opinion to "this game will never be worth cash" if this is a taste to of things to come.
If I myself was taking a chance modifying a classic game, and I had done no better than what they have apparently done with SPMBTv1, I would be considering it a failure.
Sorry guys, but just letting me play a few modern settings is not going to earn you any occolades with this level of performance.
At this point SPMBTv1 (preview or whatever you eventually end up calling it) is joining SP3 on my pile of cds that represent games I might play when reeeeeeeally bored.
I will not bother fussing over SPMBTv1 if this or that sucks, I won't be taking the game that seriously at this point.
Use SPMBTv1 at your own risk.
If SPMBTv1 was a car, it would be a used clunker that was poorly repaired and with a paint job that wasn't even done well.
This is what I saw at the SPCammo site
The SPMBTv1.01 Patch contains a large number of OOB corrections as well as code changes to fix a Y2K bug in the campaign generator. A 26,000 point cap has been placed on defender purchases which will now allow the attacker to purchase the correct proportion of points. Plus, there is a fix for a bug that was appearing when mixed cluster and HE missions were plotted simultaneously and another fix for a bug that was not giving the correct base experience ratings for various nations
Were the programmers sleeping while they worked? What will I be reading about next week? Did the guys not even pay the slightest attention to all the lessons learned by Matrix?
But hey what do ya know, it won't download at any rate (I am not shocked somehow).
I thought hmmm why not try some of the other downloads there.
Downloaded each and every download they had there in mere seconds. Problem was I didn't need any of those.
But the actual patch....nope no deal.
A real pain is all I can say I guess.
Just what IS the problem there? Is their server so abyssmally worthless it can't handle the traffic? If this is all a person has to look forward to from them then they will never see any financial assistance from me.
What bothers me with the patch, is the things that were required to be fixed.
Now don't go tarring and feathering me, but while I have heard the AI is supposed to be nice in SPMBTv1, I am NOT playing the version X game. Updates, patches, bug fixes, nope it isn't going to happen.
Free, no please don't go on about it being free. We all know it's free. But time is money to some.
SPWaW is also free. And yes it went through numerous updates, patches, and bug fixes (and I am not saying I was always entirely thrilled with it there either).
Main difference with SPMBTv1 over SPWaw SPMBTv1 is still the same DOS dinosaur it was when they began fiddling with it.
It isn't going to get raves from me, if it pretends to be an equal to SPWaW when in truth it is at best an ugly cousin.
I think it's an "ok" game currently, but I will downgrade that opinion to "this game will never be worth cash" if this is a taste to of things to come.
If I myself was taking a chance modifying a classic game, and I had done no better than what they have apparently done with SPMBTv1, I would be considering it a failure.
Sorry guys, but just letting me play a few modern settings is not going to earn you any occolades with this level of performance.
At this point SPMBTv1 (preview or whatever you eventually end up calling it) is joining SP3 on my pile of cds that represent games I might play when reeeeeeeally bored.
I will not bother fussing over SPMBTv1 if this or that sucks, I won't be taking the game that seriously at this point.
Use SPMBTv1 at your own risk.
If SPMBTv1 was a car, it would be a used clunker that was poorly repaired and with a paint job that wasn't even done well.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
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Paul Vebber
- Posts: 5342
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Portsmouth RI
- Contact:
I allowed this thread where I had deleted previous ones because I thought everyone had outgrown the animosity between "teams". With Matrix "bowing out" of the "SP development race" to work on the next generation Combat Leader. Its amazing that there is still this emotionism. As long as the thread was pretty much "pro SP:MBT" it was OK, but the first serious criticism and the attacks begin...
NEWSFLASH TO CAMO - WE QUIT - YOU WIN - YOU ARE THE ONLY GROUP WORKING ON SP MODS ANYMORE!!!!
To us its played out and a new game is needed, you are welcome to be the "kings of SP mods"... if you haven't noticed we have moved far beyond doing mods...
Les is entitled to his opinion and if you have meaningful contray arguments you are free to debate them. After all the months and months spent suposedly working bugs out and Camo's attacks on Matrix for "buggy products" and "patches appearing right after major releases" it certainly is understandable that someone would wonder about the patch to a Camo product so soon on the heels of one of its "bug - free" releases. I guess squashing bugs is a tough business after all...
If you want to discuss Les opinion, back up your attack with at least something...
Gratuitous personal attacks like this are not tolerated here. There are plenty of other venues and "matrix free zones" where they are...
NEWSFLASH TO CAMO - WE QUIT - YOU WIN - YOU ARE THE ONLY GROUP WORKING ON SP MODS ANYMORE!!!!
To us its played out and a new game is needed, you are welcome to be the "kings of SP mods"... if you haven't noticed we have moved far beyond doing mods...
Les is entitled to his opinion and if you have meaningful contray arguments you are free to debate them. After all the months and months spent suposedly working bugs out and Camo's attacks on Matrix for "buggy products" and "patches appearing right after major releases" it certainly is understandable that someone would wonder about the patch to a Camo product so soon on the heels of one of its "bug - free" releases. I guess squashing bugs is a tough business after all...
If you want to discuss Les opinion, back up your attack with at least something...
Gratuitous personal attacks like this are not tolerated here. There are plenty of other venues and "matrix free zones" where they are...
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
The Fanboy comment was kinda funny heheh.
Fortunately anyone on the forum that has been here for any length of time will already know that I am no one's idea of an easy to please person.
And I will rake Matrix over the coals just as easily as the next guy if it seems warranted to me.
For all that might look at my label under my nickname, I picked Veteran First Class mainly because I thought "well it's not that large a promotion on the usually rank structure".
I think by and large I have established my status under fire.
As of today this minute this moment, I was able to secure a download of that silly patch.
Was at a buddy's (was out shopping for a new dvd player and he knows his electronics).
He is downtown in a fair sized city (for Canada that is hehe) and has a fast connection. So I walked him through finding the link in question. **** if he had it downloaded in less than a few seconds (it is after all a pathetic mere 3 mb file, which is to a DSL user or cable type a puny file size at best).
Simple matter of him just transferring the dumb file to me later when I get a chance.
I have noooooidea how he got the dumb file with no effort though.
Ok so now I have this patch, and I have the game, and even a handful of those other files that might or might not be worth anything (how would I know as yet after all).
But a spade is after all a spade.
Thanks to SP Cammo for the effort. It was work to some extent I am sure.
But I have seen the interest the dedicated anticipation the glowing praise heaped on this offering.
But come on guys, its the same old ugly DOS game with some make up.
If it runs, fine, it its reasonably fun, fine as well.
But you can't say I am pro Matrix for stating the massively superior SPWaW (in its current condition) is so dang much better than the rival for your attention SPMBTv1.
Shooting up Arab armour images, or knocking off Warsaw Pact armour images is not going to make the game great in and of itself.
If the guts of the game needed the same level of work as SPWaW given to get to where it is now, then SPMBTv1 should have gotten the same level of effort BEFORE offering SPMBTv1.
Personally I am not at a loss here.
Its no secret to the forum that I am pro WW2 if I am pro anything at all.
The only people that have lost our the dire hard modern fans. These people I think, personally, have been massively let down.
These guys are the ones that will make or break the guys working on SPMBTv1. Not me.
The guys working on the SPMBTv1 design have not even approached the level of effort employed to beat and hammer SPWaW into shape.
I feel kinda sad for the Modern crowd here at Matrix that eagerly awaited this release.
Matrix just can't be everywhere at once. They chose to go it totally new and make Combat Leader.
I think a full years sweat on SPMBTv1 might have yielded potentially a nice effort.
It doesn't look like the needed effort was employed.
I have no knowledge of the effort taken in truth, I can only see a game that doesn't reeeeeally look any different to this gamer.
I am as we speak wondering if my after market purchase of the original SP2 game (its in the mail to me at the moment) was well timed now that I have SPMBTv1. It might be a redundaat game cd that is only marginally different to a casual gamer, that won't have the desire to fuss over the perceived inadequacies that inspired the people to produce SPMBTv1.
Oh just to make sure this is known, Mojo, your sending me the game on cd, regardless of the worth of the game, still marks you as a superior supporter of the hobby (wanted to make sure you knew that).
To Paul directly, Paul you are one heck of a supporter of the hobby as a whole, in that your site is open to any and all comments, and has no trouble with people that might actually mention items not of your own doing or current concerned interest.
And that the space is offered to me freely is not something to be sneezed at either.
I would hate to see a thread pulled simply because outside interests couldn't handle a Matrix members's open frank comments on a non Matrix effort or software, that were mentioned within a Matrix owned forum.
Fortunately anyone on the forum that has been here for any length of time will already know that I am no one's idea of an easy to please person.
And I will rake Matrix over the coals just as easily as the next guy if it seems warranted to me.
For all that might look at my label under my nickname, I picked Veteran First Class mainly because I thought "well it's not that large a promotion on the usually rank structure".
I think by and large I have established my status under fire.
As of today this minute this moment, I was able to secure a download of that silly patch.
Was at a buddy's (was out shopping for a new dvd player and he knows his electronics).
He is downtown in a fair sized city (for Canada that is hehe) and has a fast connection. So I walked him through finding the link in question. **** if he had it downloaded in less than a few seconds (it is after all a pathetic mere 3 mb file, which is to a DSL user or cable type a puny file size at best).
Simple matter of him just transferring the dumb file to me later when I get a chance.
I have noooooidea how he got the dumb file with no effort though.
Ok so now I have this patch, and I have the game, and even a handful of those other files that might or might not be worth anything (how would I know as yet after all).
But a spade is after all a spade.
Thanks to SP Cammo for the effort. It was work to some extent I am sure.
But I have seen the interest the dedicated anticipation the glowing praise heaped on this offering.
But come on guys, its the same old ugly DOS game with some make up.
If it runs, fine, it its reasonably fun, fine as well.
But you can't say I am pro Matrix for stating the massively superior SPWaW (in its current condition) is so dang much better than the rival for your attention SPMBTv1.
Shooting up Arab armour images, or knocking off Warsaw Pact armour images is not going to make the game great in and of itself.
If the guts of the game needed the same level of work as SPWaW given to get to where it is now, then SPMBTv1 should have gotten the same level of effort BEFORE offering SPMBTv1.
Personally I am not at a loss here.
Its no secret to the forum that I am pro WW2 if I am pro anything at all.
The only people that have lost our the dire hard modern fans. These people I think, personally, have been massively let down.
These guys are the ones that will make or break the guys working on SPMBTv1. Not me.
The guys working on the SPMBTv1 design have not even approached the level of effort employed to beat and hammer SPWaW into shape.
I feel kinda sad for the Modern crowd here at Matrix that eagerly awaited this release.
Matrix just can't be everywhere at once. They chose to go it totally new and make Combat Leader.
I think a full years sweat on SPMBTv1 might have yielded potentially a nice effort.
It doesn't look like the needed effort was employed.
I have no knowledge of the effort taken in truth, I can only see a game that doesn't reeeeeally look any different to this gamer.
I am as we speak wondering if my after market purchase of the original SP2 game (its in the mail to me at the moment) was well timed now that I have SPMBTv1. It might be a redundaat game cd that is only marginally different to a casual gamer, that won't have the desire to fuss over the perceived inadequacies that inspired the people to produce SPMBTv1.
Oh just to make sure this is known, Mojo, your sending me the game on cd, regardless of the worth of the game, still marks you as a superior supporter of the hobby (wanted to make sure you knew that).
To Paul directly, Paul you are one heck of a supporter of the hobby as a whole, in that your site is open to any and all comments, and has no trouble with people that might actually mention items not of your own doing or current concerned interest.
And that the space is offered to me freely is not something to be sneezed at either.
I would hate to see a thread pulled simply because outside interests couldn't handle a Matrix members's open frank comments on a non Matrix effort or software, that were mentioned within a Matrix owned forum.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Hello gentlemen,
When I posted that spmbt was released, I had the feel it was good news to all steel panthers fans. Specially those that love modern battles. My intention was not to begin another senseless flame war between spcamo and Matrix: I'm only a player that loves Steel Panthers games.
I have played ALL the steel panthers games and mods and I love ALL of them. I'm thankful to G. Grigsby, SSI, Matrix and spcamo for years of funny wargaming. I have my preferences, of course, about which game is better or wich game suits best my idea of "reality", but that's not for what I posted here. If I offended you, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention.
Sincerely
Mikimoto
Edited cause I missed to name Novastar as producer of fine steel panthers mods. And missed to point I dont feel Guderian's post is so strong or rude...
When I posted that spmbt was released, I had the feel it was good news to all steel panthers fans. Specially those that love modern battles. My intention was not to begin another senseless flame war between spcamo and Matrix: I'm only a player that loves Steel Panthers games.
I have played ALL the steel panthers games and mods and I love ALL of them. I'm thankful to G. Grigsby, SSI, Matrix and spcamo for years of funny wargaming. I have my preferences, of course, about which game is better or wich game suits best my idea of "reality", but that's not for what I posted here. If I offended you, I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention.
Sincerely
Mikimoto
Edited cause I missed to name Novastar as producer of fine steel panthers mods. And missed to point I dont feel Guderian's post is so strong or rude...
Desperta ferro!
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
Miquel Guasch Aparicio
No offence taken Les;)Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
...
Oh just to make sure this is known, Mojo, your sending me the game on cd, regardless of the worth of the game, still marks you as a superior supporter of the hobby (wanted to make sure you knew that).
...
If something's not working you might want to tunk it a dite.
Mojo's Mom
Mojo's Mom
SPMBT is much better than SP2 and SP Camo should be congratulated for their work. Unlike Matrix, which used SPWaW as a testbed for creating a game company tthat responds to the desires of the players and as a model for future wargames to be sold for a profit, SP Camo is strictly volunteer and doing this for the love of the game. They have made many innovations and done quite well with the old DOS version.
I am surprised the feelings of animosity still run so high as well. I get all of fhe posts from the Yahoo and Leondus groups and several still spill the vitriol about Matrix and SPWaW. One of the most levelheaded among them, Dale Hight, is in the process of moving and so is not available to give his voice of reason. Most of them ignore SPWaW and many of them play both SPWaW and SPWW2. Some have to throw insults as soon as anyone asks about SPWaW. I do not believe that is the case on this forum. Most of the SPWaW players such as Warhorse, Wild Bill and Paul that were also an integral part of the SP Camo team at one time are prone to give SPWW2 its due. It is really a good game. It crashes way too much for me and the graphics and sounds are from the original SP games so I stay with SPWaW but I will crack out my old ver 2.2 to play one of the old scenarios Wild Bill or Marauder did for it and even some of my own:D
Figmo used to spend some time posting to the SP WW2 Yahoo group as it was originally open for ALL SP players, but over time the hardliners won out over the middle of the roaders and he got tired of the abuse of SPWaW as have I. It is sad to see that whenever someone asks about SPWaW on their groups the answer is usually filled with derision. At least on these forums we have people such as Warhorse who give a balanced viewpoint for both games and give credit where credit is due
I am surprised the feelings of animosity still run so high as well. I get all of fhe posts from the Yahoo and Leondus groups and several still spill the vitriol about Matrix and SPWaW. One of the most levelheaded among them, Dale Hight, is in the process of moving and so is not available to give his voice of reason. Most of them ignore SPWaW and many of them play both SPWaW and SPWW2. Some have to throw insults as soon as anyone asks about SPWaW. I do not believe that is the case on this forum. Most of the SPWaW players such as Warhorse, Wild Bill and Paul that were also an integral part of the SP Camo team at one time are prone to give SPWW2 its due. It is really a good game. It crashes way too much for me and the graphics and sounds are from the original SP games so I stay with SPWaW but I will crack out my old ver 2.2 to play one of the old scenarios Wild Bill or Marauder did for it and even some of my own:D
Figmo used to spend some time posting to the SP WW2 Yahoo group as it was originally open for ALL SP players, but over time the hardliners won out over the middle of the roaders and he got tired of the abuse of SPWaW as have I. It is sad to see that whenever someone asks about SPWaW on their groups the answer is usually filled with derision. At least on these forums we have people such as Warhorse who give a balanced viewpoint for both games and give credit where credit is due
Brent Grenadier Richards
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[url=http://
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[url=http://
I just want to throw a couple cents in here.
SPWAW vs SPWW2,
hmmm,no contest really,SPWAW uses the better SP engine and has way more feature,better unit pics,and better graphics and its windows friendly and runs on my 1.3 gig athlon,no other SP game does that.
Now SPMBT is a differnt story.
There is no Matrix offering in this area,so Camo wins there,even though I know that SP:MW would have rocked,ohh yes.
SPWAW vs SPWW2,
hmmm,no contest really,SPWAW uses the better SP engine and has way more feature,better unit pics,and better graphics and its windows friendly and runs on my 1.3 gig athlon,no other SP game does that.
Now SPMBT is a differnt story.
There is no Matrix offering in this area,so Camo wins there,even though I know that SP:MW would have rocked,ohh yes.
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Paul Vebber
- Posts: 5342
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2000 4:00 pm
- Location: Portsmouth RI
- Contact:
Well said, MacCready, brent and mikimoto, and why I didn't think there would be any problem letting the thread run.
Mikimoto certainly was "doing folks a favor" talking the game up. I've plugged Camo's work and bring attention to www.wargmer.com's plight (in the hole a 2nd strainght month, do to only 2-3% of visitors reaching out their wallets to support them.
"Fan - boy" is tyically meant in a very derogatory fashion to label someone who mindlessly schills for a product. Les has been one of the most prolific contributors - BOTH positive and negative about Matrix products and SP:WaW in particular. I think such a "name calling" post by anybody in particularly directed at someone with as excellent a track record as Les, deserves a reprimand...
Mikimoto certainly was "doing folks a favor" talking the game up. I've plugged Camo's work and bring attention to www.wargmer.com's plight (in the hole a 2nd strainght month, do to only 2-3% of visitors reaching out their wallets to support them.
"Fan - boy" is tyically meant in a very derogatory fashion to label someone who mindlessly schills for a product. Les has been one of the most prolific contributors - BOTH positive and negative about Matrix products and SP:WaW in particular. I think such a "name calling" post by anybody in particularly directed at someone with as excellent a track record as Les, deserves a reprimand...
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Seee this (Sarge pointing at baseball bat) this is my new addition to when I come to the forum.
Geeese come on you guys I have a wife heheh. If the "Sarge praise" gets much thicker I might have to start beating you down with the bat heheh:D
Fanboy though is a term I have heard a lot in my experience. Derision heheh ooooooh come on now. If guys that want to say nasty words to me they are going to have to try a great deal harder heheh they are sooooooooo ill equipped.
Just as an aside (and to prove how unlikely it is that any rabid pro SPMBT vs anti Matrix SPWaW individuals will be reeeeally capable of offending me), I will give ya a peek into my head space.
Sarge is more than a warmongering Tank loving loony eh.
I am also an Otaku.
For those unfamiliar, Otaku is Japanese slang for geek.
The major difference from an Otaku and a North American Geek, is attitude.
Ya see we Otaku wear the label with a wierd sense of pride (yes it is hard to explain).
I love anime, when I am not blowing tanks to hell in a hand basket, odds are my thoughts are on anime.
Anime for the uninitiated is the form of animation that is seen in Japan. They do NOT make stuff like Bugs Bunny, Batman, South Park etc. They make stuff like Neon Genesis Evangelion, Sailormoon, Pokemon, Ranma 1/2, Slayers, and a bajillion other titles.
The only reason you won't see anime on tv is usually cultural limitations. In anime people get violently killed when weapons are used (and the dead stay dead, no reappearing next show). In anime girls actually wear underwear, and if they are top heavy then gravity behaves as expected. The Japanese dont call nudity sex, nor are they much interested in the stuck up morality of the west.
Soooooo considering I like watching Sailormoon. I have the entire series (yes the 3 years north american tv is unaware even exists) in my rather large collection of anime.
The fact that I can brazenly state I like watching icky sweet stuff in a forum full of testosterone, I think it's safe to say, "Fanboy" as an insult, just isn't good enough hehehehe:D
For the record though.
quote....
SPMBT is much better than SP2 and SP Camo should be congratulated for their work. Unlike Matrix, which used SPWaW as a testbed for creating a game company tthat responds to the desires of the players and as a model for future wargames to be sold for a profit, SP Camo is strictly volunteer and doing this for the love of the game. They have made many innovations and done quite well with the old DOS version
unquote...
I agree that SPCammo can be given credit for there efforts. I don't think Matrix can be in any way slighted for wishing their efforts to be profitable of course.
Personally I would like to see SPCammo go the same route Matrix did. Why not? Our hobby won't suffer from additional people producing decent products out of small companies.
Avalon Hill, SPI, and TSR were all once small little companies with a dream for wargamming.
They are the yardstick you can expect me to measure YOUR efforts by.
I bought AH and SPI games based on the company logo being on the box. It wasn't all that important to get to worried about quality control.
Alas today those logos don't really mean anything anymore, their time has since come and gone.
I have seen the evolution of Matrix. It reminds me of the evolution of AH (and a finer compliment is just not possible).
SPCammo if they only wish to submit a defacto "fan game" will never have any chance at glory. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
You have to learn to fly before you can soar eh. If they do not wish to fly, they will never bask high in the sun.
All this said. I have witnessed splinter group opinions in other locations of the wargaming hobby. If they are unfriendly to their audience, they gain nothing.
Geeese come on you guys I have a wife heheh. If the "Sarge praise" gets much thicker I might have to start beating you down with the bat heheh:D
Fanboy though is a term I have heard a lot in my experience. Derision heheh ooooooh come on now. If guys that want to say nasty words to me they are going to have to try a great deal harder heheh they are sooooooooo ill equipped.
Just as an aside (and to prove how unlikely it is that any rabid pro SPMBT vs anti Matrix SPWaW individuals will be reeeeally capable of offending me), I will give ya a peek into my head space.
Sarge is more than a warmongering Tank loving loony eh.
I am also an Otaku.
For those unfamiliar, Otaku is Japanese slang for geek.
The major difference from an Otaku and a North American Geek, is attitude.
Ya see we Otaku wear the label with a wierd sense of pride (yes it is hard to explain).
I love anime, when I am not blowing tanks to hell in a hand basket, odds are my thoughts are on anime.
Anime for the uninitiated is the form of animation that is seen in Japan. They do NOT make stuff like Bugs Bunny, Batman, South Park etc. They make stuff like Neon Genesis Evangelion, Sailormoon, Pokemon, Ranma 1/2, Slayers, and a bajillion other titles.
The only reason you won't see anime on tv is usually cultural limitations. In anime people get violently killed when weapons are used (and the dead stay dead, no reappearing next show). In anime girls actually wear underwear, and if they are top heavy then gravity behaves as expected. The Japanese dont call nudity sex, nor are they much interested in the stuck up morality of the west.
Soooooo considering I like watching Sailormoon. I have the entire series (yes the 3 years north american tv is unaware even exists) in my rather large collection of anime.
The fact that I can brazenly state I like watching icky sweet stuff in a forum full of testosterone, I think it's safe to say, "Fanboy" as an insult, just isn't good enough hehehehe:D
For the record though.
quote....
SPMBT is much better than SP2 and SP Camo should be congratulated for their work. Unlike Matrix, which used SPWaW as a testbed for creating a game company tthat responds to the desires of the players and as a model for future wargames to be sold for a profit, SP Camo is strictly volunteer and doing this for the love of the game. They have made many innovations and done quite well with the old DOS version
unquote...
I agree that SPCammo can be given credit for there efforts. I don't think Matrix can be in any way slighted for wishing their efforts to be profitable of course.
Personally I would like to see SPCammo go the same route Matrix did. Why not? Our hobby won't suffer from additional people producing decent products out of small companies.
Avalon Hill, SPI, and TSR were all once small little companies with a dream for wargamming.
They are the yardstick you can expect me to measure YOUR efforts by.
I bought AH and SPI games based on the company logo being on the box. It wasn't all that important to get to worried about quality control.
Alas today those logos don't really mean anything anymore, their time has since come and gone.
I have seen the evolution of Matrix. It reminds me of the evolution of AH (and a finer compliment is just not possible).
SPCammo if they only wish to submit a defacto "fan game" will never have any chance at glory. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
You have to learn to fly before you can soar eh. If they do not wish to fly, they will never bask high in the sun.
All this said. I have witnessed splinter group opinions in other locations of the wargaming hobby. If they are unfriendly to their audience, they gain nothing.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
-
Charles2222
- Posts: 3687
- Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2001 10:00 am
Which One?
I've followed a bit of this thread, and here's my most current impressions of SPWAW and SPWW2.
1. SPWW2 has superior campaigning in regards to the generated or WWII variety, though the recent SPWAW halving of upgrade points helped SPWAW considerably. Being able to add units to the core along the way, makes SPWW2 superior in this area as well. I always hated not being able to choose partisans in the USSR core when beginning the WWII campaign in Finland, but as I can't recall if SPWW2 allows to pick them in Poland (yes, the WWII for the USSR starts there in SPWW2, not in Finland) you can at least add them later.
2. SPWAW gets the nod in graphics of course, but I'm surprised at how good a lot of the SPWW2 AFVs look, in some cases perhaps even better than the current SPWAW same unit, but the infantry just doesn't compare, but it's alright.
3. SPWAW has the sound advantage too, though one guy did a sound number on SPWW2, an unofficial upgrade if I recall correctly, which has a couple of interesting concepts. One, the artillery actually sounds as though it's flying through the air, though it's not in stereo. Two, though I'm not sure if I like it, many of the AFVS, instead of going ka-boom when they fire, you will hear what I take to be the sound of the gun going off from the inside of a tank; sort of recoiling metal sound.
4. Here's the major issue for me, and unfortunately I keep going back and forth and can't decide which I like better. I like the SPWAW opfire, but it just seems it's too silly at times, where units fire infinitely, which of course was put in to punish abusers of the "count-the-reaction-fire" strategy. It's too bad, because the interaction of when the enemy has command alongside your countering it by fire, really puts turn-base into something of a bridge with RTS. OTOH, SPWW2 opfire is all controlled by the computer, so it does give something of an element away from hivemind and kind of gives you a little show to watch. The bad thing about this, assuming you can play with controlling opfire or not controlling it, as I can relatively painlessly, is that I have to do considerable amounts of range adjusting to units throughout the game, so that every Tom. Dick, and Harry wasting all their ammunition ineffectively. In SPWAW in always facing whether to decline the opfire or not, this isn't such a problem.
Another major issue which I'm somewhat unresolved about is small-arms fire. It seems to me that SPWAW has the losses far too high at times, whereas, especially in AFV's vs. infantry conflicts, SPWW2 seems far too generous to the infantry. I often feel as though I have to get an AFV within 2 hexes to get losses fairly reliably.
5. Though a seemingly minor issue, this overall issue has me playing SPWW2 for SP play at the moment; it tips the scales, though SPWW2 even here is short as well. The issue is mines and smoke. SPWAW allowing infantry to clear mines is good, SPWW2 doesn't allow for that. Also with mines, SPWW2 has their being spotted perhaps a bit too easily, but their being cleared by the engineers is definitely too quick and easy. Though such easy work of mines is somewhat distressing, SPWAW's treatment really leaves me gasping for air. It seems very many of the mines take ten or more turns to spot, even with unsuppressed spotting type units, and that is just unacceptable especially with so many scenario designers clamoring for 20 turn affairs.
On the subject of smoke, again SPWW2 comes out in front. I like that SPWW2 smoke seem to always clear, assuming there's no new smoke added, within 2-3 turns, but I can't stand SPWAW's smoke, it just hangs around far too long often enough. Normally this wouldn't be a problem for me, only I get VERY tired of so many of those close battles resulting in infantry slinging smoke all over the place in retreats; it's very irritating. By contrast, it seems the SPWW2 maybe sees them slinging smoke from infantry perhaps 20% of the time, and since it doesn't last very long it seems just right. The fact that the AI will use smoke from artillery, or tanks, on occassion is another advantage to SPWW2.
5. AI play. A tough one, while SPWW2 seems to have a greater realm of placing units, it seems as though it never counterattacks, and just waits for you to cross it's LOS, but it seems as though the general AI SPWAW attacks are better.
6. OOB's. I'm not sure which version I prefer, though I do like being able to pick some offboard artillery in core with SPWW2. I also like being able to pick the same guns with larger amounts of ammo but at a higher cost. I'm not sure which would be historically correct, but it does concern me that AC's often have very little smmo in SPWAW, though I think it might be not as necessary since SPWAW ammo usually has more effect. I also like that SPWAW will let you pick equipment from other nations in core. SPWW2 will only let you do that with support.
7. Maps and visibility. Large advantage to SPWW2 here. I hate all those blasted ahistorical night battles of SPWAW (though I can and have bypassed that - it's just another hassle to have to deal with, all the same) and the severe limitations of SPWAW's map size, while in campaign, are pretty bad.
8. CC. Advantage SPWAW. I can't stand being able to throw every single bit of my artillery through for FO, as I can in SPWW2, or that my movement is fairly unlimited, but I must say that SPWW2 does make up a bit for the CC not being there, in that you will, as irritating as it may be, see that when a squad has lost half it's men, you'll rarely if ever get them out of the pinned state, so that if you don't stick them by the HQ you will often pay.
9. Advance and defense modes. Advantage SPWAW. After playing SPWAW for awhile it is quite distressing to realize that your infantry on the defensive, unless it's a hold mission, will never pass time and see their position improve defensively. I also like that SPWAW engineers can lay mines, though I emphasize that with the way I play I've yet to see a single enemy unit fall to one of these types of mines. Not that they don't work, it's just the enemy never reaches those particular types, though they will reach the purchased mines fairly frequently.
10. Armor modeling. I'd like to say SPWAW, but in many ways it seems to pretty much work out the same, as SPWW2 seems to adjust armor ratings for slope and give one flat number. If I couldn't make up my mind there, SPWW2 not having vulnerable hits does give it something of a disadvantage. SPWW2 does have some mode of panic for gunners of AFV's and maybe for infantry as well, but, this brings up another advantage for SPWAW, in that SPWW2 has no discernable log. If you didn't catch the message when it whizzed by, you're out of luck.
11. Overruns and melees. Clearly SPWAW here, only the funny thing is, I've not once used melee in SPWAW, yet in SPWW2 it has automatically mentioned that they've went into melee when in the same hex. The only way I'd melee would be defensively because of the risk suppression getting quite high from helping fire, on my own unit, sees me always firing direct with the unit in the hex instead. Funny, I use melee and overrun in completely the opposite manner, as I never, not once, thought of using overrrun with a stationary tank (might help a ton against those Finns) with enemy infantry in the same hex. Instead, whether starting off in the hex with the enemy or not, I will get other units I have to suppress the enemy unit and then roar ahead with the AFV to overrun.
12. Upgrading Within Class. SPWW2 here. I just don't like the huge clutter I get in SPWAW from being able to turn every single unit into any given unit, plus SPWW2 works as a good guide when if you're not sure they're of the same class, to not buy something pretty pointless like a tank with high infantry ratings. I suppose, if you wanted to feign an infantry company campaigning, to start off with no armored help, and then molding some in, that SPWAW allows you to change some infantry or HT's to tanks, but SPWW2 allows you to roughly do the same thing, in that you can 'add to the core' and bring your tanks in that way. Without being able to add to the core, a formation started off deliberately deprived of a key arm to help them, and getting that arm later, can only be realized via this changing any unit into another.
I'm sure there's some things I've left out, but those are the ones that pop to my attention most often. I sure do hope CL campaigning improves massively on SPWAW campaigning.
1. SPWW2 has superior campaigning in regards to the generated or WWII variety, though the recent SPWAW halving of upgrade points helped SPWAW considerably. Being able to add units to the core along the way, makes SPWW2 superior in this area as well. I always hated not being able to choose partisans in the USSR core when beginning the WWII campaign in Finland, but as I can't recall if SPWW2 allows to pick them in Poland (yes, the WWII for the USSR starts there in SPWW2, not in Finland) you can at least add them later.
2. SPWAW gets the nod in graphics of course, but I'm surprised at how good a lot of the SPWW2 AFVs look, in some cases perhaps even better than the current SPWAW same unit, but the infantry just doesn't compare, but it's alright.
3. SPWAW has the sound advantage too, though one guy did a sound number on SPWW2, an unofficial upgrade if I recall correctly, which has a couple of interesting concepts. One, the artillery actually sounds as though it's flying through the air, though it's not in stereo. Two, though I'm not sure if I like it, many of the AFVS, instead of going ka-boom when they fire, you will hear what I take to be the sound of the gun going off from the inside of a tank; sort of recoiling metal sound.
4. Here's the major issue for me, and unfortunately I keep going back and forth and can't decide which I like better. I like the SPWAW opfire, but it just seems it's too silly at times, where units fire infinitely, which of course was put in to punish abusers of the "count-the-reaction-fire" strategy. It's too bad, because the interaction of when the enemy has command alongside your countering it by fire, really puts turn-base into something of a bridge with RTS. OTOH, SPWW2 opfire is all controlled by the computer, so it does give something of an element away from hivemind and kind of gives you a little show to watch. The bad thing about this, assuming you can play with controlling opfire or not controlling it, as I can relatively painlessly, is that I have to do considerable amounts of range adjusting to units throughout the game, so that every Tom. Dick, and Harry wasting all their ammunition ineffectively. In SPWAW in always facing whether to decline the opfire or not, this isn't such a problem.
Another major issue which I'm somewhat unresolved about is small-arms fire. It seems to me that SPWAW has the losses far too high at times, whereas, especially in AFV's vs. infantry conflicts, SPWW2 seems far too generous to the infantry. I often feel as though I have to get an AFV within 2 hexes to get losses fairly reliably.
5. Though a seemingly minor issue, this overall issue has me playing SPWW2 for SP play at the moment; it tips the scales, though SPWW2 even here is short as well. The issue is mines and smoke. SPWAW allowing infantry to clear mines is good, SPWW2 doesn't allow for that. Also with mines, SPWW2 has their being spotted perhaps a bit too easily, but their being cleared by the engineers is definitely too quick and easy. Though such easy work of mines is somewhat distressing, SPWAW's treatment really leaves me gasping for air. It seems very many of the mines take ten or more turns to spot, even with unsuppressed spotting type units, and that is just unacceptable especially with so many scenario designers clamoring for 20 turn affairs.
On the subject of smoke, again SPWW2 comes out in front. I like that SPWW2 smoke seem to always clear, assuming there's no new smoke added, within 2-3 turns, but I can't stand SPWAW's smoke, it just hangs around far too long often enough. Normally this wouldn't be a problem for me, only I get VERY tired of so many of those close battles resulting in infantry slinging smoke all over the place in retreats; it's very irritating. By contrast, it seems the SPWW2 maybe sees them slinging smoke from infantry perhaps 20% of the time, and since it doesn't last very long it seems just right. The fact that the AI will use smoke from artillery, or tanks, on occassion is another advantage to SPWW2.
5. AI play. A tough one, while SPWW2 seems to have a greater realm of placing units, it seems as though it never counterattacks, and just waits for you to cross it's LOS, but it seems as though the general AI SPWAW attacks are better.
6. OOB's. I'm not sure which version I prefer, though I do like being able to pick some offboard artillery in core with SPWW2. I also like being able to pick the same guns with larger amounts of ammo but at a higher cost. I'm not sure which would be historically correct, but it does concern me that AC's often have very little smmo in SPWAW, though I think it might be not as necessary since SPWAW ammo usually has more effect. I also like that SPWAW will let you pick equipment from other nations in core. SPWW2 will only let you do that with support.
7. Maps and visibility. Large advantage to SPWW2 here. I hate all those blasted ahistorical night battles of SPWAW (though I can and have bypassed that - it's just another hassle to have to deal with, all the same) and the severe limitations of SPWAW's map size, while in campaign, are pretty bad.
8. CC. Advantage SPWAW. I can't stand being able to throw every single bit of my artillery through for FO, as I can in SPWW2, or that my movement is fairly unlimited, but I must say that SPWW2 does make up a bit for the CC not being there, in that you will, as irritating as it may be, see that when a squad has lost half it's men, you'll rarely if ever get them out of the pinned state, so that if you don't stick them by the HQ you will often pay.
9. Advance and defense modes. Advantage SPWAW. After playing SPWAW for awhile it is quite distressing to realize that your infantry on the defensive, unless it's a hold mission, will never pass time and see their position improve defensively. I also like that SPWAW engineers can lay mines, though I emphasize that with the way I play I've yet to see a single enemy unit fall to one of these types of mines. Not that they don't work, it's just the enemy never reaches those particular types, though they will reach the purchased mines fairly frequently.
10. Armor modeling. I'd like to say SPWAW, but in many ways it seems to pretty much work out the same, as SPWW2 seems to adjust armor ratings for slope and give one flat number. If I couldn't make up my mind there, SPWW2 not having vulnerable hits does give it something of a disadvantage. SPWW2 does have some mode of panic for gunners of AFV's and maybe for infantry as well, but, this brings up another advantage for SPWAW, in that SPWW2 has no discernable log. If you didn't catch the message when it whizzed by, you're out of luck.
11. Overruns and melees. Clearly SPWAW here, only the funny thing is, I've not once used melee in SPWAW, yet in SPWW2 it has automatically mentioned that they've went into melee when in the same hex. The only way I'd melee would be defensively because of the risk suppression getting quite high from helping fire, on my own unit, sees me always firing direct with the unit in the hex instead. Funny, I use melee and overrun in completely the opposite manner, as I never, not once, thought of using overrrun with a stationary tank (might help a ton against those Finns) with enemy infantry in the same hex. Instead, whether starting off in the hex with the enemy or not, I will get other units I have to suppress the enemy unit and then roar ahead with the AFV to overrun.
12. Upgrading Within Class. SPWW2 here. I just don't like the huge clutter I get in SPWAW from being able to turn every single unit into any given unit, plus SPWW2 works as a good guide when if you're not sure they're of the same class, to not buy something pretty pointless like a tank with high infantry ratings. I suppose, if you wanted to feign an infantry company campaigning, to start off with no armored help, and then molding some in, that SPWAW allows you to change some infantry or HT's to tanks, but SPWW2 allows you to roughly do the same thing, in that you can 'add to the core' and bring your tanks in that way. Without being able to add to the core, a formation started off deliberately deprived of a key arm to help them, and getting that arm later, can only be realized via this changing any unit into another.
I'm sure there's some things I've left out, but those are the ones that pop to my attention most often. I sure do hope CL campaigning improves massively on SPWAW campaigning.
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
- Posts: 3943
- Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 10:00 am
Charles , nice read on SPWW2. I have never played it myself (never encountered it while bored and open to downloading something).
Your comments though were well organised enough I might just look into checking it out for cross analysis based on your really thorough comparison.
Heard a lot of SPWW2 over the last year or so from browsing threads, but your post here was the first time I have encountered a useful SPWW2 post from anyone I have actually run into.
Your comments though were well organised enough I might just look into checking it out for cross analysis based on your really thorough comparison.
Heard a lot of SPWW2 over the last year or so from browsing threads, but your post here was the first time I have encountered a useful SPWW2 post from anyone I have actually run into.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
Re: Which One?
Good post - a couple additions...Originally posted by Charles_22
I've followed a bit of this thread, and here's my most current impressions of SPWAW and SPWW2.
SPWAW has many more terrain types - walls, cliff, gulleys, hedges, better buildings, on and on.
SPWW2 has 15 height variations (only 3 in SPWAW unless you use the unweildy mountainizer). This is a huge advantage in mountain scenarios.
SPWAW has many victory hex types - per turn, capture once, exit hex - and you can make them show up mid game. These are great scenario design tools to force decisions on a player, and make the AI more effective.
SPWAW vehicle breakdowns are much better. They are more random, happen in good terrain if you are moving really fast, and can be fixed after a period of time. The only thing i like about SPWW2 breakdowns is that they occure more often in creeks/mud/beach swamp hexes, which don't slow down vehicle very much in SPWAW
Paratroop assaults seem better in SPWW2. Troops are scattered more, can be shot at while floating down under canopy, and DZ's may be missed entirely. The troops take casualties while dropping, but don't seem to pick up much supression (which they do in SPWAW, which is good because it adds time to the assembly process).
Both games are free, so how could anyone complain about either? I just use the one which is best for my current needs, and wait patiently for CL.
Unconventional war requires unconventional thought