John and I have exchanged a couple notes with an interesting question on the SW Pac: What next after Noumea?
John is moving well. We have intentionally kept the forces on the East side of the map to a minimum, in order to focus on SRA/India. John can go through an OOB in more detail, but it's pretty much 56th Div, South Seas Det, and some SNLF units.
Noumea should fall by mid-January. What after that?
Ellice Islands?
Fiji?
Canton?
Baker?
I'm not sure we have the troops to defeat that Bde on Fiji even.
The First Team: Take Two!
Moderators: wdolson, Don Bowen, mogami
Strategic Choices
I just sent a long note to Brad of which this was a part:
I like to leave something in the Marianas for AF expansion. Perhaps we could stage a move when those new BF come in to Tokyo that a smaller BF can each go to Saipan and Tinian while we move the larger BF to Efate and Noumea? That would work out pretty nicely.
The ooomph of the Japanese drive will eghaust itself with Koumac and Noumea. I'll be very low on supply and have tired troops. Figure to rest there for a bit. Michael and I were talking yesterday about perhaps trying to lay a trap for the Allies. That we don't lunge further east AT ALL for a period of 6-8 weeks and allow the Allies to move troops into the area. Once this has been allowed then we chose a location, attack, and destroy the units present. It isn't just about territory at that point it should also be about killing units.
To do this I will desperately need troops. Once we pull that big Artillery Regiment out of Moppo (I converted 4th Army HQ for India by the way), I could really use at least two of the Chinese small Brigades. I have ordered most of those units to Shanghai as is so they can wait. What do you think?
Agree too that we need more bombers online. How about we follow your thought and strip two Sentai from Manchuria after we pull that Artillery Regiment?
All we have in the Central and South Pacific for large Inf units are South Seas Force and 56th Inf Div. This is it. Until I get reinforcements, I will shift to the defensive--I HATE THAT--until we can gather enough power to strike somewhere. Perhaps, in addition to those China Brigades, I could grab an Infantry Div from the Philippine Campaign upon its completion?
During the hiatus of operations, the Japanese will expand bases as fast as possible.
Add to this the return of CarDiv2 with CVL Shoho in early-April. I would then have 6 CV and 1-2 CVL for offensive operations.
As for targets I would think taking Suva is best. It isn't far from Noumea/Efate and simply widens are salient allowing for easier raiding to the south.
Ideas? Comments??
I like to leave something in the Marianas for AF expansion. Perhaps we could stage a move when those new BF come in to Tokyo that a smaller BF can each go to Saipan and Tinian while we move the larger BF to Efate and Noumea? That would work out pretty nicely.
The ooomph of the Japanese drive will eghaust itself with Koumac and Noumea. I'll be very low on supply and have tired troops. Figure to rest there for a bit. Michael and I were talking yesterday about perhaps trying to lay a trap for the Allies. That we don't lunge further east AT ALL for a period of 6-8 weeks and allow the Allies to move troops into the area. Once this has been allowed then we chose a location, attack, and destroy the units present. It isn't just about territory at that point it should also be about killing units.
To do this I will desperately need troops. Once we pull that big Artillery Regiment out of Moppo (I converted 4th Army HQ for India by the way), I could really use at least two of the Chinese small Brigades. I have ordered most of those units to Shanghai as is so they can wait. What do you think?
Agree too that we need more bombers online. How about we follow your thought and strip two Sentai from Manchuria after we pull that Artillery Regiment?
All we have in the Central and South Pacific for large Inf units are South Seas Force and 56th Inf Div. This is it. Until I get reinforcements, I will shift to the defensive--I HATE THAT--until we can gather enough power to strike somewhere. Perhaps, in addition to those China Brigades, I could grab an Infantry Div from the Philippine Campaign upon its completion?
During the hiatus of operations, the Japanese will expand bases as fast as possible.
Add to this the return of CarDiv2 with CVL Shoho in early-April. I would then have 6 CV and 1-2 CVL for offensive operations.
As for targets I would think taking Suva is best. It isn't far from Noumea/Efate and simply widens are salient allowing for easier raiding to the south.
Ideas? Comments??
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
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ny59giants
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RE: Strategic Choices
All I would put in the Central Pacific and the SE corner of the South Pacific are some sub hunter/killer groups (1 Glen equipped sub and 2 to 3 fleet subs each). Send them to Suva, Pago Pago, French Polynesia, and Christmas Island. They should be building up Christmas "IF" they are going to make a stand around Pago Pago area. Keep KB hidden so they feel they will need to use their CVs for escort duty.
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Canoerebel
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RE: Strategic Vision
Your opponents are experienced and capable; they know the Japs can pretty much go wherever they want to in '41 and '42. They aren't going to go on the offensive any time soon in SwPac or SoPac because their concentrating on avoiding bad battles against a superior foe and hoping to have a chance to consolidate and build up a defensive line. So a few feints and thrusts by the Japs will reinforce the Allies' intuitive need to defend; but if you allow them to take and build up atolls (like Pago Pago) it is going to be most costly for you to recapture them. So what? If you have India, you don't need Pago Pago. Suva is a good idea, of course, because it's not an atoll. And if you simply have to keep gobbling up ground to keep up the appearances of activity, Papete isn't an atoll either. Why in the world would you want to attack a heavily defended Pago Pago?
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Strategic Vision
Hey--Are the Giants playing today? Ooooppppsss... [:D]
Dan--I concur with your thoughts. Pago-Pago roughed me up in our game if you remember WAAAAYYYY back to 1942. I had a great victory against Mandrake and Tabpub there in that campaign where I destroyed the 2nd Marine Division.
I think the point of getting Suva 'for an appearance of activity' is a very sound point. It will take to mid-January for all of New Caledonia to fall and then we can move on Suva by landing at Nandi first.
There has been some American naval activity at Papeate and I am working on combing my CarDiv1 and 5 NE of New Zealand. My AOs are 2 days away. I will refuel and then move towards that target with the intent of causing some trouble. Since there is a real chance of meeting some US CVs, I will lead my CVs with a small STF of 1 CL and 2 DD to serve as bait if there are carriers around.
Brad--Michael brings up a very good idea as to moving SS down into this area. The PH SS have been useless for getting in attacks. What do you think about pulling them back to Kwajalein, change commanders out, and then redeploy into the SE PAC? We have a few SS there already and another dozen would certainly help a bit.
Also, we should start thinking about SS moving into the IO to cause some trouble as a prelude to our landing.
The two damaged Fuso's are now headed home. I cannot remember which one was at what but one was Sys-50 and the other was Sys-32. There were results of two Dutch SS hitting each BB with 2 Trops. They will be repairing for a while. Nagato will repair at Singapore after it falls. This will leave us with 4 BB to escort the Viza Landings. That should be sufficient I hope.
Speaking of India, from Moppo has been cashed out 1 Hv Artillery Reg, 4th Army HQ, and 2 Engineering Reg. They are all headed for Singapore.
Dan--I concur with your thoughts. Pago-Pago roughed me up in our game if you remember WAAAAYYYY back to 1942. I had a great victory against Mandrake and Tabpub there in that campaign where I destroyed the 2nd Marine Division.
I think the point of getting Suva 'for an appearance of activity' is a very sound point. It will take to mid-January for all of New Caledonia to fall and then we can move on Suva by landing at Nandi first.
There has been some American naval activity at Papeate and I am working on combing my CarDiv1 and 5 NE of New Zealand. My AOs are 2 days away. I will refuel and then move towards that target with the intent of causing some trouble. Since there is a real chance of meeting some US CVs, I will lead my CVs with a small STF of 1 CL and 2 DD to serve as bait if there are carriers around.
Brad--Michael brings up a very good idea as to moving SS down into this area. The PH SS have been useless for getting in attacks. What do you think about pulling them back to Kwajalein, change commanders out, and then redeploy into the SE PAC? We have a few SS there already and another dozen would certainly help a bit.
Also, we should start thinking about SS moving into the IO to cause some trouble as a prelude to our landing.
The two damaged Fuso's are now headed home. I cannot remember which one was at what but one was Sys-50 and the other was Sys-32. There were results of two Dutch SS hitting each BB with 2 Trops. They will be repairing for a while. Nagato will repair at Singapore after it falls. This will leave us with 4 BB to escort the Viza Landings. That should be sufficient I hope.
Speaking of India, from Moppo has been cashed out 1 Hv Artillery Reg, 4th Army HQ, and 2 Engineering Reg. They are all headed for Singapore.
Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.
RE: Strategic Vision
You don't have the force to overcome a single brigade at Suva? You've got 1.5 divisions backed up by KB. With a single day of concentrated airstrikes you should easily be able to overcome that Bde... Going over onto the defensive too soon would be a grave error.
BTW - doing anything JUST "for the appearance of activity" is always a bad idea. If it doesn't bring you toward the strategic situation you want to achieve at the end of December 1943 then don't do it. Doing something just to give an appearance of activity is terrible strategy on a number of counts:
1. Action not in the pursuit of your strategic objectives is wasted action.
2. You WILL sustain losses in order to create this "appearance of activity" and then when you truly need to do something you'll find yourself so attrited that you can't sustain the necessary losses.
3. Activity shows where your forces are and gifts your opponent the peace of mind of knowing where your major strategic assets are. That's a priceless gift. Unless your CVs are achieving a strategic goal your opponent should NEVER know where they are.
Really this appearance of activity is a sinkhole you would do well to avoid.
If there's no reason to be active then don't be afraid to sit back and rest and refit.
BTW - doing anything JUST "for the appearance of activity" is always a bad idea. If it doesn't bring you toward the strategic situation you want to achieve at the end of December 1943 then don't do it. Doing something just to give an appearance of activity is terrible strategy on a number of counts:
1. Action not in the pursuit of your strategic objectives is wasted action.
2. You WILL sustain losses in order to create this "appearance of activity" and then when you truly need to do something you'll find yourself so attrited that you can't sustain the necessary losses.
3. Activity shows where your forces are and gifts your opponent the peace of mind of knowing where your major strategic assets are. That's a priceless gift. Unless your CVs are achieving a strategic goal your opponent should NEVER know where they are.
Really this appearance of activity is a sinkhole you would do well to avoid.
If there's no reason to be active then don't be afraid to sit back and rest and refit.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Strategic Vision
Excellent Posts gentlemen! Great ideas here. I think Nemo and Canoerebel are both right. We have to have clear objectives, though the Allies are probably looking to defend key points like Pago Pago, and will be content in the short-term if they can do that.
January 1st through 4th in the SRA
This period has been fairly uneventful, thus the infrequent update, but it will get hot in a few days! Overall, some of our offensives are running out of gas, but others are moving forward nicely.
Phillipines
We are attacking Clark tommorow with over 1400 AV, plus tanks and artillery. Despite all that, I am not optimistic. We may have a decision to make in the Phillipines, because we don't want 4 divisions tied down to a long siege of Clark. We should know more tommorow. We do have an NLF landing at Lamon Bay to cut that escape route.
Malaya
The initial "skinny" assault on Johore Bharu was repulsed; we tried a quick attack without bringing everyone up. We should be attacking in 2 days with full forces; 3 full divisions, plus 2/3 of the 16th division, and artillery. 2 Bdes of the enemy were caught north of the crossroads, and have pulled back to Kuantan, where they will be bottled up by 1/3 of the 16th Div.
Still hope to take Singapore by Jan 10th, everything hinges on the next attack at Johore.
DEI
Banjarmisan should fall tommorow. Troops are ashore at Bali, and an invasion force has sailed to secure Brunei and Miri. We will pray to the die roll gods on those Oil centers!
The Java Invasion Fleet sailed from Saigon on the 2nd; I estimate Jan 7th to be D-Day for Java. They have already spotted this large armada, so there won't be a great deal of surprise. Once the fleet clears Singkawang, they will be able to tell if it's heading to Merak or Kragen. I have paras at Kuching ready to secure the base the day before a landing, if the KNIL doesn't move into the hex. I expect an opposed landing though, because there are clusters of troops at Batavia and Madioen; no doubt they intend to fight on the beach. We should have enough to punch through though, Kragen is a clear hex with no forts, particularly if the Batavia forces don't have enough time to move south (and I don't think they will)
China
I hate China. Nevertheless, we have to fight here, so John and I have split it into two operations.
In the South, John is going to invest Wenchow. This is a smaller base, but needs to be cleaned up. It is nearly surrounded, and should be easy to starve out or conquer.
In the North, I am going to invest Yenan. I will provide an OOB at some point, but it's alot of troops. Probably not enough, though, to take it by brute force. We intend to surround and starve the base, and tanks and Cav are moving into position around it. If this is successful, we will do the same thing to the Commies in Paotow; they are immobile, and can only throw rocks at us as we cut their supplies.
If I am successful in both, we will destroy most of the Chinese Communist formations, unless Nationalist Forces intervene from the south. Of course, the idea of Nationalist Troops launching attacks to save the Communists is absurd, but hey, what can you do.
Subs
We are going to start moving those subs from the PH/San Fran corridor out to those key bases. We have only gotten one kill out there, though we have been in position a few times with no attacks. It's a waste of time until we can get some new commanders. We made our point, I want them to have to escort all their convoys out there.
The sub war has been disappointing after that first week. Other than picking off a damaged Dutch DD a couple days ago, attacks and kills have been few and far between. Then again, Allied shipping has disappeared completely from the DEI. Haven't seen anything.
Looking Ahead
After we take Java and Singapore, the rest of the SRA will be cleanup. We have taken all bases south of Java, so we will need to secure Sumatra, as well as the central Phillipines Islands. Sumatra is first because of oil. No hurry in the PI, those bases can't hurt us, and will provide good target practice.
I have been reading Castor Troy's AAR, and I think he is right in that Northern Australia is the most dangerous place for Japan; an attack from here, and the Solomons and anything else is irrelevant.
There are only 2 territorial objectives for the Allies, really: 1. Get a platform to bomb Japan (and be able to supply it), and
2. Interdict and/or destroy Oil shipments from the DEI to Japan. Everything else is really just VP grabs or supporting objectives.
January 1st through 4th in the SRA
This period has been fairly uneventful, thus the infrequent update, but it will get hot in a few days! Overall, some of our offensives are running out of gas, but others are moving forward nicely.
Phillipines
We are attacking Clark tommorow with over 1400 AV, plus tanks and artillery. Despite all that, I am not optimistic. We may have a decision to make in the Phillipines, because we don't want 4 divisions tied down to a long siege of Clark. We should know more tommorow. We do have an NLF landing at Lamon Bay to cut that escape route.
Malaya
The initial "skinny" assault on Johore Bharu was repulsed; we tried a quick attack without bringing everyone up. We should be attacking in 2 days with full forces; 3 full divisions, plus 2/3 of the 16th division, and artillery. 2 Bdes of the enemy were caught north of the crossroads, and have pulled back to Kuantan, where they will be bottled up by 1/3 of the 16th Div.
Still hope to take Singapore by Jan 10th, everything hinges on the next attack at Johore.
DEI
Banjarmisan should fall tommorow. Troops are ashore at Bali, and an invasion force has sailed to secure Brunei and Miri. We will pray to the die roll gods on those Oil centers!
The Java Invasion Fleet sailed from Saigon on the 2nd; I estimate Jan 7th to be D-Day for Java. They have already spotted this large armada, so there won't be a great deal of surprise. Once the fleet clears Singkawang, they will be able to tell if it's heading to Merak or Kragen. I have paras at Kuching ready to secure the base the day before a landing, if the KNIL doesn't move into the hex. I expect an opposed landing though, because there are clusters of troops at Batavia and Madioen; no doubt they intend to fight on the beach. We should have enough to punch through though, Kragen is a clear hex with no forts, particularly if the Batavia forces don't have enough time to move south (and I don't think they will)
China
I hate China. Nevertheless, we have to fight here, so John and I have split it into two operations.
In the South, John is going to invest Wenchow. This is a smaller base, but needs to be cleaned up. It is nearly surrounded, and should be easy to starve out or conquer.
In the North, I am going to invest Yenan. I will provide an OOB at some point, but it's alot of troops. Probably not enough, though, to take it by brute force. We intend to surround and starve the base, and tanks and Cav are moving into position around it. If this is successful, we will do the same thing to the Commies in Paotow; they are immobile, and can only throw rocks at us as we cut their supplies.
If I am successful in both, we will destroy most of the Chinese Communist formations, unless Nationalist Forces intervene from the south. Of course, the idea of Nationalist Troops launching attacks to save the Communists is absurd, but hey, what can you do.
Subs
We are going to start moving those subs from the PH/San Fran corridor out to those key bases. We have only gotten one kill out there, though we have been in position a few times with no attacks. It's a waste of time until we can get some new commanders. We made our point, I want them to have to escort all their convoys out there.
The sub war has been disappointing after that first week. Other than picking off a damaged Dutch DD a couple days ago, attacks and kills have been few and far between. Then again, Allied shipping has disappeared completely from the DEI. Haven't seen anything.
Looking Ahead
After we take Java and Singapore, the rest of the SRA will be cleanup. We have taken all bases south of Java, so we will need to secure Sumatra, as well as the central Phillipines Islands. Sumatra is first because of oil. No hurry in the PI, those bases can't hurt us, and will provide good target practice.
I have been reading Castor Troy's AAR, and I think he is right in that Northern Australia is the most dangerous place for Japan; an attack from here, and the Solomons and anything else is irrelevant.
There are only 2 territorial objectives for the Allies, really: 1. Get a platform to bomb Japan (and be able to supply it), and
2. Interdict and/or destroy Oil shipments from the DEI to Japan. Everything else is really just VP grabs or supporting objectives.
RE: Strategic Vision
Make sure your fleets are on DO NOT UNLOAD until right before you make landfall at Kragen........I have had combat units dumped on Borneo as my transports end their turn in a coastal hex. Nothing worse than having your support troops land only to find all your combat troops 200 miles away starving. Keep them on DO NOT UNLOAD until they are in clear seas right off Kragen, then change them.
Funny how all your combat troops will dump in 1 turn, but try to recover them and it takes 5 turns to load them from over the beach.
North OZ is dangerous, but it does give you some time before the Allies start hitting the DEI area with land based bombers. Take it and then lightly garrison it. Large naval guards do good work here. The allies will take it back, best thing.........have some armor units ready to move around behind the allied force when they reach one of your bases.......nothing better than cutting the supply line. Keep a division and lots of airlift near Timor so you can rapidly fly in reinforcements and then evac them once the job is done.
SOPAC........I would take NZ just to be a butt.......After conquest, use naval guards to garrison. Keep a decent garrison (300AV) in Auckland and Noumea. Base Betty's and patrol a/c there and just cause trouble for Allies. Every base they have to retake, takes time and buys you that time. Betty's will force him to bring CV's and makes unescorted TF's too risky. Cuts OZ off from US.......OZ starts hurting for supplies when going to offensive ops.
But build every base captured to max forts for maximum delay time.
Funny how all your combat troops will dump in 1 turn, but try to recover them and it takes 5 turns to load them from over the beach.
North OZ is dangerous, but it does give you some time before the Allies start hitting the DEI area with land based bombers. Take it and then lightly garrison it. Large naval guards do good work here. The allies will take it back, best thing.........have some armor units ready to move around behind the allied force when they reach one of your bases.......nothing better than cutting the supply line. Keep a division and lots of airlift near Timor so you can rapidly fly in reinforcements and then evac them once the job is done.
SOPAC........I would take NZ just to be a butt.......After conquest, use naval guards to garrison. Keep a decent garrison (300AV) in Auckland and Noumea. Base Betty's and patrol a/c there and just cause trouble for Allies. Every base they have to retake, takes time and buys you that time. Betty's will force him to bring CV's and makes unescorted TF's too risky. Cuts OZ off from US.......OZ starts hurting for supplies when going to offensive ops.
But build every base captured to max forts for maximum delay time.
RE: Strategic Vision
Good advice 2nd ACR, but those transports are all DO NOT UNLOAD. I have done exactly that too many times to count. That, plus leaving fragments behind the first place.
A good habit to get into is to ALWAYS have transports on DO NOT UNLOAD, until you are in open water, about to unload.
I was thinking that on Northern OZ; Darwin is the only semi-tough nut, everything else looks like a walkover. I think we may do this, if for no other reason than to keep up the pressure. I would like to find 1 Bde to take Darwin, though.
A good habit to get into is to ALWAYS have transports on DO NOT UNLOAD, until you are in open water, about to unload.
I was thinking that on Northern OZ; Darwin is the only semi-tough nut, everything else looks like a walkover. I think we may do this, if for no other reason than to keep up the pressure. I would like to find 1 Bde to take Darwin, though.
RE: Strategic Vision
Do not lose focus.........concentrate on India..........Do not pull allied forces north until you have to. If you can another Div to help take NZ, trust me, the pressure will be on. Do not leave any of those forces there, but pull main combat units upon conquest.
LLeave small 100AV garrisons except at Auckland, use Betty's and Zero's for main defense........I doubt the Allies will really try anything there until late 42 or early 43. They will not want to risk losing CV's.
North Oz can be a walkover........if you take NZ, well now the Allies have to spread all the forces they have to gaurd against a southern invasion also. Limits the number of forces avial for North Oz. If you take some of the outlying atolls (Canton, Suva etc) they act as trip wires for NZ. You will see the allies coming and can act accordingly.
I would take NZ, and then make my move on north OZ. If done around the same time as India or shortly after the start of that campaign, well now the Allies are really spread thin. 1 Div and 1 heavy brigade can take NZ. Supported by Bettys, a CV div and a surface force, well NZ will fall........key is to take it before any major US div's get there. 1 CV div near Noumea, 1 CV div near Truk allows you to almost cover the whiole area. Betty's out of Tarawa, Kwajalain, Wake can keep the allies honest and act as a tripwire so you have time to shift a CV div for backup. That allows you to move 1 CV div back for repairs/upgrades etc. By June 42, you should have 4 full CV div with fleet CV's and a very strong mini KB for use........mini KB stays near India/DEI, 1 CV div near Noumea/Auckland, 1 at Truk and the other moving to upgrade.......when it is ready, send to relieve another........Auckland has a repair port that can be expanded, so that allows repairs and upgrades of the southern div etc. It is a long way for supplies though, but 1 huge TF with alot of supplies can do wonders.
LLeave small 100AV garrisons except at Auckland, use Betty's and Zero's for main defense........I doubt the Allies will really try anything there until late 42 or early 43. They will not want to risk losing CV's.
North Oz can be a walkover........if you take NZ, well now the Allies have to spread all the forces they have to gaurd against a southern invasion also. Limits the number of forces avial for North Oz. If you take some of the outlying atolls (Canton, Suva etc) they act as trip wires for NZ. You will see the allies coming and can act accordingly.
I would take NZ, and then make my move on north OZ. If done around the same time as India or shortly after the start of that campaign, well now the Allies are really spread thin. 1 Div and 1 heavy brigade can take NZ. Supported by Bettys, a CV div and a surface force, well NZ will fall........key is to take it before any major US div's get there. 1 CV div near Noumea, 1 CV div near Truk allows you to almost cover the whiole area. Betty's out of Tarawa, Kwajalain, Wake can keep the allies honest and act as a tripwire so you have time to shift a CV div for backup. That allows you to move 1 CV div back for repairs/upgrades etc. By June 42, you should have 4 full CV div with fleet CV's and a very strong mini KB for use........mini KB stays near India/DEI, 1 CV div near Noumea/Auckland, 1 at Truk and the other moving to upgrade.......when it is ready, send to relieve another........Auckland has a repair port that can be expanded, so that allows repairs and upgrades of the southern div etc. It is a long way for supplies though, but 1 huge TF with alot of supplies can do wonders.
RE: Strategic Vision
Aye, take NZ if you can. It'll really hurt the Allies. People sometimes seem to dismiss the value of NZ. I wouldn't underestimate it at all. NZ can be crucial IF your gameplan involves taking or utterly isolating Oz.
But KNOW what you are going to do about Oz before you even think about what to do about NZ. The key is to just join up all your thinking and have your minor plans fit into your major plans. That ensures minimum wastage.
One thing though - If you aren't sure you can take Pago or Suva then you sure as hell aren't in position to take NZ....
So, India first and then move on NZ in a leisurely manner.
In my game vs 2nd ACR I've moved a 3rd echelon army ( 6 divisions worth ) to Noumea and taken it. In the meantime my 2 first and 1 second echelon armies are finishing up India before moving southward to help expand whatever bridgehead the 3rd echelon army ( formed from reinforcements etc which came on-scene after the first two echelons went to India ) makes in NZ.
You may phase things a little differently but I suggest that the basic pattern is sound and could be used to good effect in this game.... I'm not saying anything here which 2ndACR doesn't already know. If you want a bit more info on exact phasings/landing sites etc drop me a PM. That'd be too much info to give publicly.
But KNOW what you are going to do about Oz before you even think about what to do about NZ. The key is to just join up all your thinking and have your minor plans fit into your major plans. That ensures minimum wastage.
One thing though - If you aren't sure you can take Pago or Suva then you sure as hell aren't in position to take NZ....
So, India first and then move on NZ in a leisurely manner.
In my game vs 2nd ACR I've moved a 3rd echelon army ( 6 divisions worth ) to Noumea and taken it. In the meantime my 2 first and 1 second echelon armies are finishing up India before moving southward to help expand whatever bridgehead the 3rd echelon army ( formed from reinforcements etc which came on-scene after the first two echelons went to India ) makes in NZ.
You may phase things a little differently but I suggest that the basic pattern is sound and could be used to good effect in this game.... I'm not saying anything here which 2ndACR doesn't already know. If you want a bit more info on exact phasings/landing sites etc drop me a PM. That'd be too much info to give publicly.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Strategic Vision
Gentlemen,
is this victory disease already ?
Sorry if I ask this question, which may seem a bit provocative, especially as my experience is limited and I am sure you know better than I would what you are doing/suggesting. However, when reading the last pages, we seem to be in a bit of a “anything goes” mood right now, and I am not sure whether this is a realistic impression. India PLUS northern Oz PLUS New Zealand PLUS heading towards Suva… Are you sure we don’t reach to far and overextend ?
Even if all of the operations mentioned above would be doable with the available forces, let’s change hats for a while and play Allied. What options are left to put the Allied troops to use in this framework of operations, assuming that we are aware that places like Palmyra and Canton just cannot be held and thus are not worth reinforcing ? Aren’t you enforcing formation of an Allied Schwerpunkt?
What I would probably try if put under pressure at so many fronts (never did this against a human opponent though) would be a massive attack along the Axis Wake-Bonin-Iwo, paralleled by preparing in the Aleutians for an offensive operation as soon as winter has passed. Kick the devastators and almost all of the dauntless off the CVs and fill them up with wildcats to reduce threats from the air by use of a MASSIVE übercap, and off we go. Why should I fight my way back in 1942/43, slowly reestablishing a connection to Australia if I can attempt making the first steps if not all the way of getting the home islands into range of my B17 instead ?
The sweet part about this is that I know that Japan cannot really afford to ignore this threat – IMHO you have to react. Sure, you may be able to take back the bases I just mentioned at this point of time – but as Allied, I would assume that you will be coming and a) prepare for just that and b) try to spring a nice trap or two. No surprise, plus you wage a battle imposed by the enemy for which he is prepared and you are probably not.
Therefore, before thinking about further expansion I would like to know more about how to secure said axis of attack plus the Aleutian front or how such a plan could be countered. I mean, if you make the enemy create a schwerpunkt at a place you are aware of, why not be the one who goes on dictating the turns of battle by making the enemy’s “initiative” a move in your schedule ?
Just my 2cts – please tell me if my thoughts are off.
Hartwig
is this victory disease already ?
Sorry if I ask this question, which may seem a bit provocative, especially as my experience is limited and I am sure you know better than I would what you are doing/suggesting. However, when reading the last pages, we seem to be in a bit of a “anything goes” mood right now, and I am not sure whether this is a realistic impression. India PLUS northern Oz PLUS New Zealand PLUS heading towards Suva… Are you sure we don’t reach to far and overextend ?
Even if all of the operations mentioned above would be doable with the available forces, let’s change hats for a while and play Allied. What options are left to put the Allied troops to use in this framework of operations, assuming that we are aware that places like Palmyra and Canton just cannot be held and thus are not worth reinforcing ? Aren’t you enforcing formation of an Allied Schwerpunkt?
What I would probably try if put under pressure at so many fronts (never did this against a human opponent though) would be a massive attack along the Axis Wake-Bonin-Iwo, paralleled by preparing in the Aleutians for an offensive operation as soon as winter has passed. Kick the devastators and almost all of the dauntless off the CVs and fill them up with wildcats to reduce threats from the air by use of a MASSIVE übercap, and off we go. Why should I fight my way back in 1942/43, slowly reestablishing a connection to Australia if I can attempt making the first steps if not all the way of getting the home islands into range of my B17 instead ?
The sweet part about this is that I know that Japan cannot really afford to ignore this threat – IMHO you have to react. Sure, you may be able to take back the bases I just mentioned at this point of time – but as Allied, I would assume that you will be coming and a) prepare for just that and b) try to spring a nice trap or two. No surprise, plus you wage a battle imposed by the enemy for which he is prepared and you are probably not.
Therefore, before thinking about further expansion I would like to know more about how to secure said axis of attack plus the Aleutian front or how such a plan could be countered. I mean, if you make the enemy create a schwerpunkt at a place you are aware of, why not be the one who goes on dictating the turns of battle by making the enemy’s “initiative” a move in your schedule ?
Just my 2cts – please tell me if my thoughts are off.
Hartwig
RE: Strategic Vision
Hartwig;
You always have to challenge conventional wisdom. And you are thinking about countermoves: What will the Allies do?
The Allies COULD mount an early drive in Cent Pac, but they would be foolish to do this too early. It would be an opportunity for us, even if it temporarily diverts resources from India. Keep in mind, any Size-4 airbase can be reinforced, within 2 days, by 72 Zeros and 135 Nells/Bettys. In 1942/43, the Allied counter is bomb the base ahead of time with 4Es and follow-up with BBs, but early on, you don't have enough of either to make that an option. This means an Allied invasion is going to have to sail in teeth of that airpower.
Before 3/42, that is suicide; the Allies may still have F2A on CVs, won't have a good torp bomber, and CV Hornet won't be in theater. At least in 4/42, you get AA upgrades, full complement of Wildcats, and all 5 fleet CV's, with WASP not too far out. It's still very very risky.
The Allies right now have enough ground troops and transport shipping around Hawaii to mount an invasion. The problem is they have no counter to Bettys. Most Allied players who attempt to attack land bases with CV's early in the war end up with Sunk CVs. I think our opponents are too smart to try that.
I beleive they will not try an invasion until at least 6/42; but I think they will in summer of 1942. By then, the TBF will be close, some of those Pearl BB's will be fixed, and certain critical bases will be secure. They will probably launch an attack to take pressure off India.
You always have to challenge conventional wisdom. And you are thinking about countermoves: What will the Allies do?
The Allies COULD mount an early drive in Cent Pac, but they would be foolish to do this too early. It would be an opportunity for us, even if it temporarily diverts resources from India. Keep in mind, any Size-4 airbase can be reinforced, within 2 days, by 72 Zeros and 135 Nells/Bettys. In 1942/43, the Allied counter is bomb the base ahead of time with 4Es and follow-up with BBs, but early on, you don't have enough of either to make that an option. This means an Allied invasion is going to have to sail in teeth of that airpower.
Before 3/42, that is suicide; the Allies may still have F2A on CVs, won't have a good torp bomber, and CV Hornet won't be in theater. At least in 4/42, you get AA upgrades, full complement of Wildcats, and all 5 fleet CV's, with WASP not too far out. It's still very very risky.
The Allies right now have enough ground troops and transport shipping around Hawaii to mount an invasion. The problem is they have no counter to Bettys. Most Allied players who attempt to attack land bases with CV's early in the war end up with Sunk CVs. I think our opponents are too smart to try that.
I beleive they will not try an invasion until at least 6/42; but I think they will in summer of 1942. By then, the TBF will be close, some of those Pearl BB's will be fixed, and certain critical bases will be secure. They will probably launch an attack to take pressure off India.
RE: Strategic Vision
Hartwig, the key is phasing.
IF you have the power to take India then you have the power to take NZ, a bit of Oz and the islands in the Pacific BUT you don't have time to do that all at the same time so you need to phase it.
India first then NZ, then Oz then the pacific ( or in whatever order you want ). The key is your phasing or, how you run those ops in series ( certainly not in parallel ).
Hartwig - I think your thinking runs into the problem of attacking so slowly ( since you would secure subsidiary fronts so well ) that the enemy would have plenty of time to actually make that attack.
If you don't already I might suggest taking a gander at my game vs Damian and my game vs 2ndACR... In both I rely on speed to close off a myriad of counter-offensive options which my opponents could take IF they had the time to consider them and get ready for them.
In my game vs Damian in particular I've used speed and ruthlesness to overcome greatly superior enemy forces on two separate axes of advance. By thrusting forward fiercely and forcing the enemy to avoid the point of your sword you prevent them from being in sufficient balance to launch their own attack most of the time.
Just my two cents obviously but I believe it does work ---- what I am espousing is, basically, Soviet strategy.
IF you have the power to take India then you have the power to take NZ, a bit of Oz and the islands in the Pacific BUT you don't have time to do that all at the same time so you need to phase it.
India first then NZ, then Oz then the pacific ( or in whatever order you want ). The key is your phasing or, how you run those ops in series ( certainly not in parallel ).
Hartwig - I think your thinking runs into the problem of attacking so slowly ( since you would secure subsidiary fronts so well ) that the enemy would have plenty of time to actually make that attack.
If you don't already I might suggest taking a gander at my game vs Damian and my game vs 2ndACR... In both I rely on speed to close off a myriad of counter-offensive options which my opponents could take IF they had the time to consider them and get ready for them.
In my game vs Damian in particular I've used speed and ruthlesness to overcome greatly superior enemy forces on two separate axes of advance. By thrusting forward fiercely and forcing the enemy to avoid the point of your sword you prevent them from being in sufficient balance to launch their own attack most of the time.
Just my two cents obviously but I believe it does work ---- what I am espousing is, basically, Soviet strategy.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Strategic Vision
OK, quick tactical question for the gallery......
I just got the 1/4/42 resolution, and Clark was attacked at 2-1, with the forts dropping. I posted the OOB before, but basically, 2/3 of the infantry in USAFFEE is in this hex, and Manila is already invested from the South. This means that these forces, if defeated, will retreat to Bataan, correct?
If so, what if I land a Nav Gd at Bataan? The ships would be destroyed, the troops chewed up, but if I time that with an attack on Clark, won't that mean a mass surrender? That would be worth 4 lost transports and a beat-up Gd Unit.
QUICK response before I do the turn guys!
I just got the 1/4/42 resolution, and Clark was attacked at 2-1, with the forts dropping. I posted the OOB before, but basically, 2/3 of the infantry in USAFFEE is in this hex, and Manila is already invested from the South. This means that these forces, if defeated, will retreat to Bataan, correct?
If so, what if I land a Nav Gd at Bataan? The ships would be destroyed, the troops chewed up, but if I time that with an attack on Clark, won't that mean a mass surrender? That would be worth 4 lost transports and a beat-up Gd Unit.
QUICK response before I do the turn guys!
-
Mike Solli
- Posts: 16012
- Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
RE: Strategic Vision
ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
If so, what if I land a Nav Gd at Bataan? The ships would be destroyed, the troops chewed up, but if I time that with an attack on Clark, won't that mean a mass surrender? That would be worth 4 lost transports and a beat-up Gd Unit.
QUICK response before I do the turn guys!
You need to control Bataan in order to prevent the enemy forces from retreating there. What's the hurry? Bataan makes a great place to bomb in order to increase your pilot's experience.
Created by the amazing Dixie
RE: Strategic Vision
Or you could just drop some paratroops into Bataan and save yourself 4 ships and one virtually destroyed SNLF.
Why do something at a great cost when you can do it at virtually no cost? Commanding Japan means making the most efficient use of everything possible if you want to succeed.
Why do something at a great cost when you can do it at virtually no cost? Commanding Japan means making the most efficient use of everything possible if you want to succeed.
John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.
Well, that's that settled then.
RE: Strategic Vision
ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
You need to control Bataan in order to prevent the enemy forces from retreating there. What's the hurry? Bataan makes a great place to bomb in order to increase your pilot's experience.
That is option B: Bottle it up with 65th Bde, and bomb it for months. We will have a decision after Clark falls. We can:
1. Move immediately on Bataan and hope we can finish those troops off while they are disrupted.
2. Move immediately on Manila (where 1/3 of infantry is, but ALL of the engineers and HQ units).
RE: Dropping paras, I think that's too risky, and we have other impending needs. It would take all our paras to take out the forts at Bataan.
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Canoerebel
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- Joined: Fri Dec 13, 2002 11:21 pm
- Location: Northwestern Georgia, USA
- Contact:
RE: Strategic Vision
Isn't Manila far more important with its resources, port, and airfield? Bataan is just a made-to-order prison camp, but you benefit in many ways from capturing Manila as soon as possible.
"Rats set fire to Mr. Cooper’s store in Fort Valley. No damage done." Columbus (Ga) Enquirer-Sun, October 2, 1880.
RE: Strategic Vision
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
Isn't Manila far more important with its resources, port, and airfield? Bataan is just a made-to-order prison camp, but you benefit in many ways from capturing Manila as soon as possible.
There is something just wrong with you posting here. Its like cats and dogs living together
"We have met the enemy and they are ours" - Commodore O.H. Perry