Forlorn Hopes: The Japanese Respond

[John 3rd]

It is for these two that I am looking at major choices in life. These are the boys! John is now 5 and Christopher is 2 1/2. Luckily they take after their Mom.

[FOW]

Fortifications aren't just bigger and better pillboxes and bunkers. There are area defences and depth to think about. No way can you lay a minefield and barbed wire entanglement, backed by MG and ATG positions providing enfilading fire with artillery at stand-off ranges on a spit of sand and coral less than 100m wide.
IMHO a limit on forts recognises the lack of 'defence in depth'

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: FOW

Fortifications aren't just bigger and better pillboxes and bunkers. There are area defences and depth to think about. No way can you lay a minefield and barbed wire entanglement, backed by MG and ATG positions providing enfilading fire with artillery at stand-off ranges on a spit of sand and coral less than 100m wide.
IMHO a limit on forts recognises the lack of 'defence in depth'

I do agree with you but what would you call that:



I would definetely call this something like fort level 9 and if it would be on an atoll it could be also a couple of times bigger. Now don´t ask how much something like that on an atoll should use up supplies to build and how long it should take but why not building such things on atolls?

[Bogo Mil]

It is very very difficult to model fortifications in a game like witp. Forts are expanded step by step. In reality, you had to decide which kind of fortifications you want, then start building them. When the enemy attacks, the forts are built, or they are not ready yet. The thing on the picture may qualify as a level 9 fort - but the same thing only half ready is certainly not a level 6 or 7 fort (as it would be in witp after ca. 1/2 of the possible fortification work done). It would most probably have very weak spots and could be sized easily. Thus it would be a huge risk to try building such a monster. In witp, you can construct like crazy and it will benefit you whenever the enemy attacks.

I think house rules should not only restrict things which were impossible in reality, but also restrict things which are not handled well by the game engine. Yes, you could build lvl 9 forts on an atoll - but this would have severe disadvantage not represented in the game. Thus it should not be allowed to do so in the game.

[Panther Bait]

While I don't know the specific geotechnical aspects of atolls, they are basically the crumbling remains of old volcanic islands.  It is very possible that an atoll would not be able to provide adequate foundational strength to the monster fort in that picture, and "bedrock" could be thousands of feet below you on the sea floor.
 
There is also the problem that many atoll islands are something like 30 feet above sea level at their high point, some are much lower than that. Hard to dig trenches if it's only 4 feet to sea level.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

It is very very difficult to model fortifications in a game like witp. Forts are expanded step by step. In reality, you had to decide which kind of fortifications you want, then start building them. When the enemy attacks, the forts are built, or they are not ready yet. The thing on the picture may qualify as a level 9 fort - but the same thing only half ready is certainly not a level 6 or 7 fort (as it would be in witp after ca. 1/2 of the possible fortification work done). It would most probably have very weak spots and could be sized easily. Thus it would be a huge risk to try building such a monster. In witp, you can construct like crazy and it will benefit you whenever the enemy attacks.

I think house rules should not only restrict things which were impossible in reality, but also restrict things which are not handled well by the game engine. Yes, you could build lvl 9 forts on an atoll - but this would have severe disadvantage not represented in the game. Thus it should not be allowed to do so in the game.

it´s a very good that that a not ready level 9 fort shouldn´t be a level 6-8.

[Big B]

I agree with all of the comments on fortifications, but unfortunately witp models it in it's own way. Yes, a level 9 fortification shouldn't be a level 6 before completion in a more perfect game engine.

But it is what it is.  I note that in John's game Canoerebel still took Wake after all the effort in troops and fortifications. So ultimately all that effort and supply consumption is gone now.

So, it shows you can overcome anything in the game, which is why - in the final analysis, I would lean toward "do what you like, they will have to find a way to overcome it."

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Big B

I agree with all of the comments on fortifications, but unfortunately witp models it in it's own way. Yes, a level 9 fortification shouldn't be a level 6 before completion in a more perfect game engine.

But it is what it is.  I note that in John's game Canoerebel still took Wake after all the effort in troops and fortifications. So ultimately all that effort and supply consumption is gone now.

So, it shows you can overcome anything in the game, which is why - in the final analysis, I would lean toward "do what you like, they will have to find a way to overcome it."

I fear that in AE atoll invasion will be easier than in WITP as you know your enemy can´t have more than 6000 troops...

[FeurerKrieg]

ORIGINAL: castor troy


I fear that in AE atoll invasion will be easier than in WITP as you know your enemy can´t have more than 6000 troops...

Atoll invasion should be easier than it currently is. These current situations of weeks and weeks of combat on an atoll are completely ahistorical. The only atoll that ever held against the attackers was the first attack at Wake. And the second time around, it went very quickly as it should.

I think it is good for atolls to be hard to defend, as it increases the importance of larger island/coastal bases, as well as increases the importance of how you use your navy.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Feurer Krieg

ORIGINAL: castor troy


I fear that in AE atoll invasion will be easier than in WITP as you know your enemy can´t have more than 6000 troops...

Atoll invasion should be easier than it currently is. These current situations of weeks and weeks of combat on an atoll are completely ahistorical. The only atoll that ever held against the attackers was the first attack at Wake. And the second time around, it went very quickly as it should.

I think it is good for atolls to be hard to defend, as it increases the importance of larger island/coastal bases, as well as increases the importance of how you use your navy.

I´m sure AE will be a far better product than WITP but I wonder where the fun will go... up or down... I guess as soon as the game is 100% realistically (which it will never be) as soon the fun will be gone...

[FeurerKrieg]

Well, if AE is LESS FUN then there is still WITP (non-AE) to play!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Mister PLOW 9---Thank was a very kind thing to say!  I appreciate the commentary and thought.

In my other Campaign, I sent a comment to the other players that perhaps we need a HR on the subject of atolls.  In the spirit of continuing to grow the conversation regarding other topics, Steve (in our 2x2 First Team AAR) sent the following proposal for atoll attacks in our game:

[font="arial"]with no mechanism to automatically increase disruption, fatigue and supply useage/wastage if you overstack how would it work?[/font][/align]  [/align] [font="arial"]

As for force levels:[/font][/align] [font="arial"]
ATOLLS    (port size+airfield size)x2= 000's          e.g.    (1+ 2)x2 = 6000 [/font][/align] [font="arial"]

ISLANDS - how to differentiate between small and large (as AE does)? [/font][/align] [font="arial"]                 or (port+airfield) x5 = 000's[/font][/align] [font="arial"]

above sizes are based upto SPS - overbuild doesn't give you more.[/font][/align]  [/align] [font="arial"]

I haven't looked at typical bases yet to see if the above makes sense, just threw it into the discussion[/font][/align]  [/align] [font="arial"]

The max fort level of 6 for Atolls is something that we might agree on

We would enjoy a discussion on this topic to hammer out a realistic House Rule that might be usable for ourselves and others.

[/font][/align]

My thoughts for the First Team AAR is to go with this set of troop allowance for atolls and islands. Makes sense and the math is fairly simple. (This helps challenged people like me)

As to Forts how about correspond it to what can be built on the atoll? We could go something like this:

Fort 5---AF+Pt=6 or less
Fort 6---AF+Pt=7-9
Fort 7---AF+Pt=10-12
Fort 8---AF+Pt=13-15
Fort 9 for anything more...

Formula on Brian's Mod:
Wake 10--Fort 7
Tarawa 11--Fort 7
Kwajalein 13--Fort 8
Truk 18--Fort 9

How does that sound for a House Rule?

[John 3rd]

This SHOULD have happened about 4-6 months ago with the Japanese losing near 1,000,000 men. Since it has taken so long, casualties will number about 200,000 when all is said and done.

[John 3rd]

I doubt if Dan would attack the Marianas so I am reinforcing Pagan and Marcus. IF he launches anymore major invasions Marcus is the logical target so most of the supply and fuel goes there. A good amount of fuel will go there because I intend to use it as a refueling stop on my next major operation with the Kaigun.

[MrPlow9]

Great update as always! Just curious, what CV/CVL are coming out the the shipyards, and are these your last ships or do you have any other warships coming in the future? I seem to have a faint memory of you saying that you halted the Shinano? Or am I mistaken?
Thanks!

Your Always Friendly,
MrPlow

[John 3rd]

The Kasagi and Ibuki are a day out from Palau.  CV Aso will be completed in about 20 days.  I have 6-8 DD being completed within that same time period too...

The thing I have really noticed is since I shutdown all AK/TK/AO/AP with more then 100 days to completion, my ASW ships are coming off the ways in a much more rapid manner.  In the last 10 game turns I have created 3 NEW ASW TF of 5-7 ships all with an ASW Attack Number of at least 50!  There are roughly 10 other Hunter-Killer Groups prowling around as it is now.  These reinforcements are a most welcome addition!

[n01487477]

I guess CV Ikoma is the last CV (about 50 days out I guess) you will build with 65 planes to exact a nice toll on the Allies - I'm glad to see that Brian gives pilots to these late war CV airgroups. Are you planning on halting some more shipbuilding after this or Aso?

I guess the SS's with Glen's are too far out to make much difference now, but there are plenty of PC's and a few DD's that might be valuable.

I'm not sure why you think Merchant halting would allow more ASW ships ... are we talking PC's ? They are part of the Naval build - and from my analysis - you had a heap accelerated so they should be rolling off the line as you say.

I have to ask - what was your thinking about sacrificing all those troops at Singapore? What I mean is did you at some stage think that you wanted to get them out to bolster your inner perimeter or are you content in killing off some Allied troops & halting the Allied advance before they make the move to the SRA. It is just that I am facing a similar decision (but in '42 unfortunately).

[John 3rd]

Damian--Here is the screenshot of my remaining naval construction. There is not much left. As soon as I get Aso, I will shut down another shipyard to save HI.

[John 3rd]

In regards to the questions regarding troops left to pullout and what I chose to grab, this is a pretty serious topic.

When Dan split my defense in two about March 1944 I thought that the battle was over.  My front became independent and I could no longer improvise a continous defense.  My immediate decision was to pull out troops that were badly damaged and rebuild them.  Had the Allies chosen to attack and keep up the pressure, I would have stood a very real probability of losing nearly 1,000,000 men.  Allied LBA would have cost me DOZENS of ships and thousands of troops lost at sea.

Seeing the endless number of Allied troops expanding I realized there was no chance of holding these positions with my beat-up forces (Saigon, Bangkok, Cam Rahn Bay in the east and Georgetown to Singapore in the west) against any form of determined attack.  I was faced with the option of pulling troops out a unit at a time while TRYING to LOOK like I intended to duke it out.  Considering that six months passed before the hammer blows fell I think this plan succeeded.

Instead of losing 1,000,000 troops, I will lose about 125,000.  While a large number I have to caution that even now I am evacuating--by air--fragments of these units.  Singapore has been operating 2 groups of Transports for the last 3 weeks flying units into the town north of Palembang.  The Saigon situation is even better in that Dan forgot to take Soc Trang PRIOR to his assault on Saigon.  With the AF bombed out for the last month I couldn't pull any gragments out of Saigon.  With the option of retreating to Soc Trang, the Allies have ignored the AF there and I have had 4 Transport Groups flying from Brunei and Jesselton grabbing troops.  Have accomplished the same thing in the Central Pacific with planes from Marcus pulling troops from Wake.

As these units are pulled they then get picked up and dropped off somewhere where they can rebuild.  For the most part that has meant Soerabaja due to it keeping supplies over 20-25,000 constantly.  Units have built back up pretty quickly.  Am example would be the 1st and 3rd Tank Divisions.  When I pulled them out of Saigon about 2 months ago they were at 20-25% strength.  Now they are back to full strength and ready for action.  Have done the same with at least 3 Inf Div as well.  With there being no chance of holding these doomed locations the Japanese have managed to pull out most of the major units, rebuilt many, and will be able to use them again.

There comes a time with every Japanese player as when to begin the fallback and create the Inner/Outer Defense Perimeter.  For me in this game that began the moment I realized I could not finish off Australia.  Troops from the Aleutians to the Society Islands were lifted off and drawn back into a stronger line. 

For good effect this worked out pretty well; however, the Iwo Jima invasion REALLY screwed up my planning.  I was prepared for a landing in the Philippines and that is where Dan WAS going.  Once he got cold feet he shifted to Iwo and took nearly 2 weeks to wrest it from a mere Brigade there.  If I had had even an Inf Div defending it then I would not have lost it and strategic bombardment would not have come early.  THAT is the telling point of this campaign.

I had guessed right to start with but hadn't bargained on my opponent getting cold feet and shifting his target in mid-movement! 

Additionally think about the mistakes made with the economy.  For a period of nearly a year late-42 to late-43 my economy basically staggered from one month to the next.  If not for the help of mainly Michael and Damian my economy would have totally collapsed at the start of 1944.  So many readers have helped with excellent suggestions and thoughts that I have truly been touched.  You guys have taught me so much about the game I never knew!  Thanks.

This sort of rambles but I hope it makes sense...
   

[vettim89]

Is CV Shinano active or did you cancel her? Wouldn't complain about your economy too much as you have already built far more carriers than the RL Japanese did