Spain

[James Ward]

IMO it is to easy for the Axis to bring Spain into the war. This results in the loss of Gilbralter and the defeat of the Allies in the Med. This secures Italy from sea invasion as there are no ports in Africa on the Atlantic.
Spain should cost 75-80 DP's to influence and should start at zero. The Axis should be forced into a tough choice, go for Spain and forget about bringing in Romania, Hungary and Bulgaria or forget Spain and get their historical Allies in (assuming Finlad is brought in by events).

[gwgardner]

I second that. With the current setup, it's a given that Spain will go Axis, and Gibraltar will be lost.

It's more difficult to get Finland to go Axis in this game, than Spain.

[Chocolino]

True, but it is one of the few brakes the Axis gets. The game is not balanced yet. I still have to see the AAR with a sweeping Axis victory or even a stalemate (Gary, pls none of your defeatist comments now on SuD). Taking this away will worsen the situation for the Axis.

I guess it depends on if you want a historic simulation or a more balanced game. Both have their pros and cons.

Also, the Spanish cannot take Gibraltar by themselves. If Germany can take Gibraltar via Spain, so can an Allied invasion of the Iberian peninsula, no African ports are required.

Historically, the Nazis tried to sign up the Spanish but it did not work since both Italians and Spanish had the same ambitions in the Med and differences between the two were irreconcilable IIRC.

[doomtrader]

Chocolino you are right.

I've already tuned down spain a little bit

[gwgardner]

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

(Gary, pls none of your defeatist comments now on SuD).

That wounds me to the core. I'd rather be thought imcompetent than defeatist.

[Chocolino]

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

(Gary, pls none of your defeatist comments now on SuD).

That wounds me to the core. I'd rather be thought imcompetent than defeatist.

When a German tries to make a joke it invariably backfires (we normally don't do humor)

Incompetent you are certainly not!

[Mike Parker]

The game might not be balanced (I tend to agree its not).
 
But leaving Spain so that it almost always activates as a German Ally is too much.  I would much rather see the traditional Axis allies activate easier and Spain much more difficult.  Then we see how we can balance things in other areas.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

The game might not be balanced (I tend to agree its not).

But leaving Spain so that it almost always activates as a German Ally is too much.  I would much rather see the traditional Axis allies activate easier and Spain much more difficult.  Then we see how we can balance things in other areas.

I agree with that. Spain should definately be an option for the Axis but at a significant cost in other nations joining.
The loss of Gilbralter basically wins Africa for the Axis as the UK can't seem to figure out how to ship things around the Cape! [:)]

[cpdeyoung]

The only thing that can't get around the Cape is warships, right?  With Cairo you have supply and you can build units in cities there, including warships I think?  Been a while since I tried building ships there, but I think you can.
 
Now the warships prohibition is a big deal, I agree.
 
Chuck

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

The only thing that can't get around the Cape is warships, right?  With Cairo you have supply and you can build units in cities there, including warships I think?  Been a while since I tried building ships there, but I think you can.

Now the warships prohibition is a big deal, I agree.

Chuck

Yes it seals the Med so all ships there are stuck and the US cannot get into the Med as there are no ports in Africa.

[Chocolino]

I personally wouldn't mind an open Suez - Atlantic connector in the game - but open for the Suez controlling side only. (It is for the Commonwealth troops to prevent that the Axis get that too). Move the ships to be transferred on a special area, they disappear for a reasonable amount of turns (you probably know better how long it takes to sail around Africa using reasonable a cruising speed and the occasional resupply in neutral port etc) and then let them magically reappear in the South Atlantic.

I just don't want to see the Axis faction crushed even earlier. These days, lasting until '43 as Axis in RTV is considered a reasonable goal as I understand from better players as myself. I think a game is only fun if every side has at least a fighting chance. I am ok if the balance is adjusted/compensated for elsewhere.

I would much rather see the traditional Axis allies activate easier and Spain much more difficult.

Unleashing the mighty forces of Romania one turn earlier on the USSR is no real compensation. You have to offer us more....

[cpdeyoung]

I think there is room for rethinking the diplomacy model.  In "Tripleplay" The Axis has just brought Spain into the war.  Looking at the map of Europe, Franco would commit suicide before joining the Axis at this point.  The Western Allies are in Portugal and Italy, and the Soviets are heading west fast.  Franco would have no great desire to see the Soviets on his border.  I think some combination of diplomatic point expenditure, and victory point analysis might prevent this unlikely success.  Perhaps strength points could be factored in too.  Thus when the Axis is at a high point it would be easier to sway Franco, but when things are going downhill it would be much tougher.
 
Just a thought.
 
Chuck

[Chocolino]

This is a very good idea to make the diplomatic cost to sway a neutral depending on the momentary success/prestige of the faction doing it (though the developers may dislike you). PP income could be the measure.

Although this effect is in some way already taken into account by providing us with a DP success bonus (e.g for conquering Poland early) it could be more generalized in the way you suggested.

[Mike Parker]

Unleashing the mighty forces of Romania one turn earlier on the USSR is no real compensation. You have to offer us more....

Choco,

I agree one thing I said at the outset was that balance should be looked at in other areas, but that for the diplomacy aspect Spain was out of whack.  To me its just bad that you can almost always align Spain and can almost never align Finland.

So two things really.

1. Make it easier to align the traditional Axis minors of Bulgaria Hungary Romania and Finland.  Make it harder to align Spain.

2. Do some balancing to make the game a closer play for the Axis.  Perhaps make these changes a 'balanced non-historical' option in setup.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Chocolino
Unleashing the mighty forces of Romania one turn earlier on the USSR is no real compensation. You have to offer us more....

I've gotten Romania up to level 3 infantry and believe me it helps! They are the only minor with any sort of economy. It is well worth getting them in as early as possible and getting their economy going.

[Chocolino]

Mike and James,

my mistake to make a comment that was not really helpful for a fact based discussion. In the end I think we want the same thing but approach it from different angles. My initial concern was about the game balance only and I understand that you see that, too.

I have to admit that I never saw Romania as a big asset in an Axis game. It tended to become a target that I had to defend as well. Given your experiences, I may have to review this. Thank you.

[James Ward]

ORIGINAL: Chocolino

I have to admit that I never saw Romania as a big asset in an Axis game. It tended to become a target that I had to defend as well. Given your experiences, I may have to review this. Thank you.

Try getting them in early and letting their war economy rise. If you can get them in by late 40 they can contribute decently by 43. They are like Italy, they need time to blossom![:)]

[cpdeyoung]

I am rather pleased with my Romanians and Bulgarians in "SuD".  The Bulgarians have had combat, and both nation's armies are providing support for the MLR.  I have invested in research on artillery and this has given me corps of a strength equal to many of the German corps.  The three Romainian motorized corps are quite spiffy, and the Bulgarians have some nice fast units too.  Even my Hungarians in the Pripet marshes are doing an important job of screening.  I would be hard pressed without these allies.  The Slovakians are doing garrison duty across Axis controlled space.
 
Chuck