Interceptors

[mh]

Hi all.

I just wonder about couple of things that I want to be fixed in new version of this game.

1. Interceptors should dive away from interception altitude after using their ammo or low on fuel and are heading home. I have just lost so many interceptors on btr because of this. It isn't just realistic that interceptors heading home, keeps same altitude as bomber formation that they have attacked. Yes they fly through other bomber formations and their escorts without any reason.

2. Damaged interceptors should find nearest airfield to land, not try to land on their own airfield on other side of Germany, for example.

Please fix these things in new version.

[wernerpruckner]

during air combat all involved units loose altitude ( this is in since BoB)

[mh]

Yes they lose some altitude.
But in my case Me262:s had just attacked formation of 75 B17:s, 30 TB on ce with rockets and cannons with excelent result at alt 26000. They have spended their ammo and are heading home.
Then disaster happens. Bigger formation and very well protected with TB:s and mustangs front of this small B17 formation changes it course and now my Me262:s which were heading home flyes just through this, at alt of 24800. Well, I lost only 7 Me262:s for those mustangs, but
if my Me262 had dived to 10000 ,for example, after they strike that B17:s formation, I havent lost any.
Why interceptors don't dive away of danger after they have spend their ordnance?

[Hard Sarge]

and why would they ?

they wouldn't do it in real life, so why do it here ??

really, just bad luck, bad planning

most times the same thing is going to be where you get most of your kills

[mh]

In real life german pilot didn't fly throuht bomber formation if he didn't have bullets. (I'm pretty sure about this). And they used to go "downstairs" while disengaging.

[Hard Sarge]

they didn't drop to the deck, unless forced to, part of tactics and stuff, and even if they did drop to the deck, there are enemy planes that are still going to see them

but still, that is part of command and control, if your retreat path is going to be though the middle of the enemy force, they shouldn't attack

really, the game gives you the control, to avoid this kind of thing, at other times, there is nothing you can do, there are just going to be too many other planes in the battle zone

[mh]

"there are enemy planes that are still going to see them"
-You are right about this, ami:s used to have better escort role than germans during BoB, giving them more freedom during escorting bombers but these fighters are away from escorting bomber formation for long while if they go after diving german fighters. German fighters also have better dogfight capabilities on lower altitudes, what makes diving after german fighter not so good idea.
"if your retreat path is going to be though the middle of the enemy force, they shouldn't attack"
-They don't attack, they just get died because of escorting fighters get them so easily because they don't even use full throttle to escape or just dive away.
"really, the game gives you the control, to avoid this kind of thing, at other times, there is nothing you can do, there are just going to be too many other planes in the battle zone"
-How I can control interceptors that have used their ammonition on bombers and still have plenty of fuel left? They are going use detour, if straight way is going thru bomber formations and those escorts, if I get some control.
-My Me262 aces are not going to write book about this, like some of german fighter aces have done. Why? They are just too stupid to survive from war.

[TechSgt]

MH & Hard Sarge;

IMHO...

The Allies have the same "problem", you hit fuel/damage limits and head for home. Occassionally, returning escorts will fly through Axis forces and get chewed to bits. To paraphase HS, when it happens to me I cuss llike crazy, when it happens to the Axis I LMAO. Overall, I view this as part of the game not requiring hugh changes.

To MS,
The Axis have a psuedo "recall" ability which can be used with setting altitudes -- if I remember correctly. The unit's display goes from white to green. I suggest you watch your interceptors, and recall them with a <2k altitude, before they have shot their bolt.

To HS,
As an Allied player I know the Axis AI will recall units and "most of the time" set the altitude to 20K. So setting sweeps/escorts at 21.0K gives me a plus.
How about, when the AI does its recalled it still can use 20K as a base, plus or minus a ramdonized <5K? Not knowing the code, but it should be a couple of lines in a recall subroutine.

To both,
When an aircraft goes fuel/ammo/damage limit, it is pretty much a sitting duck! At this point the pilot's "luck factor" becomes the most critical.
Can anyone say "Dice Roll"?



TS

[Hard Sarge]

planes RTB at different Alt, a unit that is still a unit, will pretty fly at the same alt

fighters on RTB, have a chance to start combat, and have a chance to defend in combat, FBs can fight, and will fight, when they are heading for home, you still do not want a Gruppen of 190s or 109s to bounce a RTB Squadron, but they will defend themselfs, and if they catch Axis planes, they can start combat

the other part, I am trying to say, the LW can set up patrol zones, instead of intercepting the raids right from base/take off, when you got alt and postion, you can then order them to attack, you have the control of the attack, you know where the RTB paths should be, if JG 11 is going to attack and fly though the raids to head home, don't attack with it, change it's patrol zone, so it's RTB path is not in a Danger area

same as with your heavies, you got them ready to attack the raid RTB and just as you are about to get there, you see a new Escourt group showing up, you have the choice to keep on the attack, or to recall the Heavies and keep them away from the Escourt, you may do major damage if you attack, you may take major damage if you attack, you may RTB and call it a day and hope for better luck tomorrow

those controls are in your hand, if you leave them to the AI to finish off, you may not like what happens

and to be honest, at times, it works out better if you leave it alone, that escourt group runs out of gas, just as it hits the raid, your 410s shatter a couple of BGs and pick off alot of stragglers, or the Escourts still have gas, and had a field day with your 410s

I have seen 262s hit a raid and break and run away before any of my fighters can react, I have also seen 262s get bounced and picked apart, neither one, can I say, never would of/could of happened

[kaybayray]

Greetings [8D]

This is a very interesting topic. I am curious just how much control will the Matrix Version have with respect to this topic? I only play the Allies and only in the current Talonsoft game. Once I get better at that I will give the Luftwaffe a go. I am aware that you have added the ability to set more waypoints. What about altitudes at each of these waypoints? Are you considering allowing the player to set RTB or Disengagement altitudes or is this feature already in the Matrix Version?

I am assuming of course that what ever altitude you have set for that particular leg of a flight or the overall flight that would be the same altitude used for Disengagment & RTB flight. Not sure if we need or should have that capability but mostly because I have never really given that aspect much thought. Due to the complexity of this game I have been dwelling on other topics that I have encountered. [8D]

Later,
KayBay

[bigmilt]

You have to remember most of the bomber pilots were very green - that's why they had the very colorful marked as the assembly planes.
It took most of their skill to just fly strait and level in a tight boxed formation - so manouvering was kept to a minamum. Becasue every change
except for a minor course correction could cause big gaps in the formation. So once they got to altitude that was it. Just fly to the check points make
the necessary course correction and keep the same altitude.

[mh]

Thank for you "kaybayray" and "bigmilt" for adding new consideratios on my topic (I'm bit under with this topic against "HS").
I've just seen too many fights were german pilots acts foolish.
If I got some way to play over this, my pilots will do it otherwise.
My 109:6 and 109:14 are going to hit fighters and my me262 are going to nail bombers, but chanching doctrine doesn't seem to have effect enought to make to make differense.
Still I want't to make my interceptors to go downstairs after interception, but no.
To bigmilt:
During 43:s this seems to be problenm of 8:s, but in 44 those formations keep really good formations during the flight and dont't seem to give so good attack opportunities to german fighters with they escorts.
But yeah, intercepting fighters don't disengage from battle doing same as b17:s on bomming run. They just doing something else than keep their planes at that altitude and that speed as 17:s do in bomming run for hitting the target.

[tblersch]

While we're complaining about proper flight practices, we may as well add that Luftwaffe planes, when landing, don't follow a proper glide slope on approach.&nbsp; I've never seen one gradually lose altitude over a 50-mile approach to the field.
&nbsp;
I don't think this is a big deal, really...but if we're going to pick nits.&nbsp;

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: bigmilt

You have to remember most of the bomber pilots were very green - that's why they had the very colorful marked as the assembly planes.
It took most of their skill to just fly strait and level in a tight boxed formation - so manouvering was kept to a minamum. Becasue every change
except for a minor course correction could cause big gaps in the formation. So once they got to altitude that was it. Just fly to the check points make
the necessary course correction and keep the same altitude.

I got to disagree with these statements, the colored plane had nothing to do with pilot skill, and these guys were not totally green, you could have planes lifting off from fields all across the contry side, and all of them are the same and with in reason, with the same markings, it is just easier and quicker, to use form up planes

and it didn't matter how skilled you were, turns and changes, could make gaps in the best units

"But yeah, intercepting fighters don't disengage from battle doing same as b17:s on bomming run. They just doing something else than keep their planes at that altitude and that speed as 17:s do in bomming run for hitting the target."

not sure what you are seeing, if this is the case, the only way a 109 is going to be flying the same speed as a B-17 is if it is crippled

"I've never seen one gradually lose altitude over a 50-mile approach to the field."

hmmm, seeing that this is not how they flew, I think we on the right track then (after the war, when asked about what they thought of the P-61, most said they had bad pilots and tactics, you could tell a P-61 was in the area, since it cross the boarder at low level and flew to the Airfield at the same low level, which tipped everybody off that it wasn't a LW plane, as the LW flew to the base at 3000 meters, and then did a rapid turning dive to the field to land)

[Hard Sarge]

MH

here is a screen shot, to try and show what I am saying, the raids shouldn't be doing as you think, look at the alts between all of the different planes in this shot

your planes shouldn't be flying along with the bombers at the same alt as the bombers as they return to base

[mh]

Hi Sarge.

Now I see through those differencies in our opinions.
Well at first, were are playing different versions of the game. I'm still playing old btr106x5 version and your screenshot seems to be from new version of the game.
What I was trying to say was that could these problems to be fixed in new version of the game and that screenshot looks pretty good to me. Those problems seems to be fixed, cause in my version of the game thinghs are quite opposite to that screenshot.

Burning ice, until I get new version of the game.

Thanks Sarge.

[harley]

ORIGINAL:&nbsp; mh
Well at first, were are playing different versions of the game. I'm still playing old btr106x5 version and your screenshot seems to be from new version of the game.
What I was trying to say was that could these problems to be fixed in new version of the game and that screenshot looks pretty good to me. Those problems seems to be fixed, cause in my version of the game thinghs are quite opposite to that screenshot.

Sorry to rain on your parade, mh, but I haven't changed this behaviour at all, so what Ron is showing is exactly how it was in the Talonsoft release. At least we agree it's functioning correctly. [:D]

[Hard Sarge]

MH

it was in the old game also, but I think it may show up better now

we also worked on making the planes climb back to alt (or climb to alt to begin with)

so really, in the old game, it was a battle in 3 D, the fighters climbed and dived, and moved forward and what not (that was part of the issue with what they called the freezeray bug, the planes were really moving, but it looked like the planes were frozen in place)

[Brutus]

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

It would look better and be much easier to read if the linebreak would be in a fix position, e.g. after the unit's name (where now is ---).

Further idea: How about using colored text in these messages? Maybe the same colors as on the map:
- Intercepting axis plane - white
- Patrolling axis plane - green
- Returning axis plane - blue
- Incoming allied plane - orange
- Returning allied plane - red

[terry1040]

ORIGINAL: Brutus

It would look better and be much easier to read if the linebreak would be in a fix position, e.g. after the unit's name (where now is ---).

Further idea: How about using colored text in these messages? Maybe the same colors as on the map:
- Intercepting axis plane - white
- Patrolling axis plane - green
- Returning axis plane - blue
- Incoming allied plane - orange
- Returning allied plane - red

Great suggestion Brutus. [8D]
I second your idea that the new game should visualize the different activites by color codes.
Hope the game goes gold soon.
Terry