Matilda Squadrons

[Prince of Eckmühl]

I can't get these units to advance against Axis forces.

They are constantly halted and seeking cover when there are enemies to their front, not 88s, mind you, but any darned thing all the way down to an anti-tank rifle.

The estabs for 4th Armoured RTR includes Mk VI tanks, as is historically correct.

Could the presence of the lightly armored scout tanks be what's causing the Matilda squadrons to balk so consistently?

[06 Maestro]

The light tanks may be the cause-they don't want to die for noting.

BTW, what scenario is this situation in?

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro

The light tanks may be the cause-they don't want to die for noting.

BTW, what scenario is this situation in?

It's a user made scenario and map, Operation Brevity:

tm.asp?m=2056759

I suspect that the light tanks were in the TOE for scouting purposes, and that the Matilda would advance alone in a battle with other medium tanks. I doubt that the AA engine can account for something like that. I have a choice, BTW. The estab has entries for the A12 without the scout tanks incorporated into the squadron. I went with the Maltilda/VI combination because that's what went to battle in May 1941 with the WDF. However, the unit doesn't appear to play well, so I may end up switching it out.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

I suspect that the light tanks were in the TOE for scouting purposes, and that the Matilda would advance alone in a battle with other medium tanks.

What tanks are you referring to as light tanks? I see Cruiser tanks listed in your OOB (the Brits referred to those as medium tanks back then, btw), and some Vickers Mk VI b. The latter was the version for tropics/desert and meant to be issued to troops in India, but sent to North Africa later on (probably to make up for heavy losses -> medium tanks and armored cars).

According to what I've read so far, the majority was serving in Egypt, as their Vickers twin-MG (50 cal) and armor could not compete with any German light tank. They were decomissioned / scrapped in 1942. I can't imagine that they had been committed to team up with British medium tanks against the German Panzer II, III and IV (that would be suicide), which British units usually attacked in a "gun and run" fashion [:D], due to the superior punch/range of the German guns. I could imagine they had been used as inf support after the initial attack - later on, though.

True, they were committed as they were the only tanks they had in some cases, besides sitting on some captured italian tanks, after the Germans showed up in the theatre, but I doubt they were useful when trying to advance against German armor. I've read that by early 1942 many VIb's were removed from front service and stationed in Egypt, where the Stuart tanks took over their role when they became available. Not sure if that's correct tho.

Or were you talking about the Marmon-Herrington Armored Cars? If so, they were the only available cars (in sufficient numbers) for recon and artillery observer tasks, the Mk2 and Mk3 versions were pretty much the backbone of the CW units in North Africa, providing for fast recon.

Although local repair shop units created some "mods" (like removing the turret to either add a German PaK 35/36 or a British 2-pounder - with just the gun's shield left for crew protection), they even added German AT rifles. They weren't primarily used as combat vehicles, though.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

What tanks are you referring to as light tanks? I see Cruiser tanks listed in your OOB (the Brits referred to those as medium tanks back then, btw), and some Vickers Mk VI b.

Or were you talking about the Marmon-Herrington Armored Cars?

Note my first post at the top of the thread. [:)]

[GoodGuy]

Ooops, missed that part, sorry [:)]
Ok, we ARE talking about Mk VIb tanks... soooo....

I'd attach them directly to the superior unit (22nd Guards Bde Group) and see what happens. The Bde HQ will then use them as Reserve most likely and keep them in the rear (near the HQ). That might work.

I just checked the estabs, where did you find the 4th RTR? I see 3rd, 5th and 6th RTR, no 4th (which makes sense, as it wasn't commited to the European theatre). It's not in COTA's Greece/Malta 1941/42 templates either, and it doesn't show up in the 2 North African scenarios that came with the patch. I just see the 4th Hussars, but that was a light Cavalry unit (with Vickers Mk VI, tho). So, where did you find it?

Anyway, I read that its B squadron was sent to Eritrea in March 1941, but the rest of the 4th RTR was available for Brevity/Battleaxe, before being destroyed in Tobruk.

EDIT: The Mk I-tank could store 110 AP rounds, the MK II-tank 130 rounds (AP), a sample check of the estabs (C Squadron, 6th RTR) revealed that the tanks (1 x Mk I and 7 x Mk II) hold 1066 AP rounds, where they in fact could hold a total of 1020 AP rounds, only.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Here's a nice site devoted to the 4th:

http://www.4rtr.com/

Select 1941-42 and it'll describe the units role in various operations.

[GoodGuy]

Well, i was half right, B SQN was not available for Brevity, as it returned from Eritrea around the 17th of June (right in time to fight as rearguard in Battleaxe).
Anyway, I asked where'd you find the 4th RTR in the ESTABS, not on the net, silly! [:)]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

There actually is a British Line estab for 4RTR:

0w-uk-Inf Tk Bn HQ-Matilda I/Mk VI (4/RTR)

I didn't use it though.

Where did mine come from?

About a third of my units are scratch builds, at least in terms of labeling.

I'm doing away with the Mk VI in 4RTR, BTW, and deploying straight Matilda II units.

I think that the light tanks keep the A12 from being all that it can be in the game.

[GoodGuy]

How many Vickers Mk VI did the 4th RTR have?
One SQN only? Why don't you try what i suggested above?

Attach the Mk VIs (there are several pure Mk VI squadron/tp's in the estabs, with 16, 14 and 6 Vickers Mk VI) to the superior Bde Group HQ, and make sure that the RTR HQ doesn't hold Mk VI (you can set its number to "0", if there are any Mk VIs). I bet it would work.

I'd add Vickers, as it's historically accurate.

[Lieste]

Without the Estabs to check against...

It does sound like the 4RTR units are a single squadron with 2-3 troops of A12 and 1 troop of MkVI - which makes the A12s excessively nervous as they are holding back because of the MkVI.
It might be sufficient to make the heavy elements 2-3 troops of A12, and collect all the recce tanks into an 'extra squadron or several troops' with MkVI exclusively - this unit will exhibit extra caution and/or can be used for flank screening/recce purposes.

The recce tanks may not need to be moved out of the 4RTR group, just out of each individual A12 squadron 'element'

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Lieste
... and collect all the recce tanks into an 'extra squadron or several troops' with MkVI exclusively ...

That's what I mean to say initially, but my train of thought derailed, as I got distracted [:)] (frickin phone). My sentence was supposed to look like this:

"... OR make sure that the RTR HQ doesn't hold Mk VI (you can set its number to "0", if there are any Mk VIs) and put them in a seperate SQN."

Thnx for pointing that out, Lieste.

POE still didn't tell me how many Mk VIs have been in 4th RTR (for Brevity and for Battleaxe), tho. POE, i am really curious now. [:D]

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: GoodGuy

... OR make sure that the RTR HQ doesn't hold Mk VI (you can set its number to "0", if there are any Mk VIs) and put them in a seperate SQN."

It's not possible to set estab values to "0." [:(]

POE still didn't tell me how many Mk VIs have been in 4th RTR (for Brevity and for Battleaxe), tho. POE, i am really curious now. [:D]

Nafziger indicates that there were five Vickers VIc on the roster.

[GoodGuy]

Dang, you could set the qty to "0" in HTTR, and that's what i did to the motorized units I put in as march Bns in my Cologne scenario. I just took away all their vehicles and HE arty ammo , to simulate the lack of fuel and HE ammo that was imminent at that point in Germany. There was only one setback, HE arty ammo supplies kicked in at 3 a.m. the next day, so the ammo-trick just worked for the first day. But the vehicle-trick worked like a charm.

Well you can still put those 5 Mk VIs in a seperate SQN. The estab holds a SQN with 6 MK VIs, so you just have to take away one (along with the proper amount of ammo).

Seems like Dave/Paul changed that for COTA, which makes me somewhat angry now, as this limits custom scenario designers even more, as they can't change the layout of a given force just by taking away the vehicles, anymore. This is getting ridiculous.