Advanced Third Reich/ World at War

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

With the 2D10, ARM/MECH is great. Need mot divs, and INF for the cities and mountains. MOT/ART/CAV is for after you have run out of the former.

What is a 2D10?

Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

With the 2D10, ARM/MECH is great. Need mot divs, and INF for the cities and mountains. MOT/ART/CAV is for after you have run out of the former.

What is a 2D10?

Good Hunting.

MR

An optional rule. The standard rule uses 1 ten-sided die for land combat resolution (1D10). The 2D10 uses a completely different CRT and 2 dice (duh). If you want to see some recent screen shots of both of these tables they are in the Player Interface Design thread - not very far back from the most recent posts in that thread (1 page back?).

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

With the 2D10, ARM/MECH is great. Need mot divs, and INF for the cities and mountains. MOT/ART/CAV is for after you have run out of the former.

What is a 2D10?

Good Hunting.

MR

An optional rule. The standard rule uses 1 ten-sided die for land combat resolution (1D10). The 2D10 uses a completely different CRT and 2 dice (duh). If you want to see some recent screen shots of both of these tables they are in the Player Interface Design thread - not very far back from the most recent posts in that thread (1 page back?).

An optional rule for MWiF or some earlier version?

In the wargames I designed I always used a 10 sided die or a pair of them to give percentage results. Much easier and a much better representation. So that concept works for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian




What is a 2D10?

Good Hunting.

MR

An optional rule. The standard rule uses 1 ten-sided die for land combat resolution (1D10). The 2D10 uses a completely different CRT and 2 dice (duh). If you want to see some recent screen shots of both of these tables they are in the Player Interface Design thread - not very far back from the most recent posts in that thread (1 page back?).

An optional rule for MWiF or some earlier version?

In the wargames I designed I always used a 10 sided die or a pair of them to give percentage results. Much easier and a much better representation. So that concept works for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

There is a thread where I posted the text descriptions of all 80 optional rules (rewritten by me for the Players Manual). You'll find the offensive chit described there too. I threw in a few tips about the importance and use of some of the optional rules - but those are few and far between.

[Mad Russian]

At the moment I've worked my way through the tutorials to land units.

I would like to say that they are absolutely great for a veteran gamer of WiF!!

Not sure how well they would do for non-veteran WiF gamers. I have two that I've started talking to this past couple of weeks, we'll see how they do with them. I'll answer any indepth questions they have about the basic game.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

At the moment I've worked my way through the tutorials to land units.

I would like to say that they are absolutely great for a veteran gamer of WiF!!

Not sure how well they would do for non-veteran WiF gamers. I have two that I've started talking to this past couple of weeks, we'll see how they do with them. I'll answer any indepth questions they have about the basic game.

Good Hunting.

MR

Thanks. I am always looking for advice on how to make them better. Here are a few pages I updates recently based on feedback from the beta testers.

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

An optional rule for MWiF or some earlier version?

In the wargames I designed I always used a 10 sided die or a pair of them to give percentage results. Much easier and a much better representation. So that concept works for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

Take note however, that the 2D10 table for the land attacks does not uses percentages, you merely add the results from the 2 ten dices, results 2-20 plus or minus pos/neg. bonuses.

[Mad Russian]

And then there is this......

I was especially careful that the color blind players could tell them all apart.

One of my best friends and a very good wargamer is color blind and often has a hard time distinguishing color coded maps and units. It just goes to show the lengths you've gone to that will make this game as easy to play as possible for everybody!

Thanks for all that!

Good Hunting.

MR

[Shannon V. OKeets]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

An optional rule for MWiF or some earlier version?

In the wargames I designed I always used a 10 sided die or a pair of them to give percentage results. Much easier and a much better representation. So that concept works for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

Take note however, that the 2D10 table for the land attacks does not uses percentages, you merely add the results from the 2 ten dices, results 2-20 plus or minus pos/neg. bonuses.

But this changes the distribution from a flat 10% for each of ten possibilities into a range of 1% to 10% (then back down to 1%) for rolls of 2 to 11 (then back down to 20). That provides a much finer grain for designing the CRT. [Personal peeve from long, long ago: the Avalon Hill CRTs which were identical for different games, ranging from American Civil War through WW II.]

[micheljq]

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets


But this changes the distribution from a flat 10% for each of ten possibilities into a range of 1% to 10% (then back down to 1%) for rolls of 2 to 11 (then back down to 20). That provides a much finer grain for designing the CRT. [Personal peeve from long, long ago: the Avalon Hill CRTs which were identical for different games, ranging from American Civil War through WW II.]

Yes I like it because of this, normal results will show more often than extreme results, like 2 or 20.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: micheljq

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

An optional rule for MWiF or some earlier version?

In the wargames I designed I always used a 10 sided die or a pair of them to give percentage results. Much easier and a much better representation. So that concept works for me.

Good Hunting.

MR

Take note however, that the 2D10 table for the land attacks does not uses percentages, you merely add the results from the 2 ten dices, results 2-20 plus or minus pos/neg. bonuses.

So they aren't used as percentile then but just increasing the range of possibilities from 11 to 19 and evening out the range to equal chances for all the numbers.

Again, that works for me better than the 2 six sided dice rolls.

Good Hunting.

MR

[Mike Parker]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So they aren't used as percentile then but just increasing the range of possibilities from 11 to 19 and evening out the range to equal chances for all the numbers.

Again, that works for me better than the 2 six sided dice rolls.

Good Hunting.

MR

well as said its 1% to 10% for any given result. In essence there are 100 possible rolls of a pair of 10 siders. There is only ONE way to get a 2 (or 20) that is to roll both 1's (10's) and hence 1/100 or 1%. For a three there are two ways. 1 then 2 on the 10 siders, or 2 then 1, so 2/100 or 2% likewise for 19 you can roll 10 then 9 or 9 then 10. the most probable single result being 11 of which there are 10 ways of rolling so 10/100 = 10%. 11 also happens to be the expected value of the sum of two ten siders if your into statistics.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So they aren't used as percentile then but just increasing the range of possibilities from 11 to 19 and evening out the range to equal chances for all the numbers.

Again, that works for me better than the 2 six sided dice rolls.

Good Hunting.

MR

well as said its 1% to 10% for any given result. In essence there are 100 possible rolls of a pair of 10 siders. There is only ONE way to get a 2 (or 20) that is to roll both 1's (10's) and hence 1/100 or 1%. For a three there are two ways. 1 then 2 on the 10 siders, or 2 then 1, so 2/100 or 2% likewise for 19 you can roll 10 then 9 or 9 then 10. the most probable single result being 11 of which there are 10 ways of rolling so 10/100 = 10%. 11 also happens to be the expected value of the sum of two ten siders if your into statistics.

That's not what I understood the answer to be. I understood the answer is that the two 10 sided dice are simply added together. Giving a result of only from 2 to 20.

That doesn't make them a percentile result; the way it does if one of the dice is read as ten's and the other as one's. Then you get get results from 01 to 00 or 100 results and not 19.

If all we do is add the dice there are three ways to get a 2. 1+1, 2+0 and 0+2.

If we do percentile there is only one way to get a 2. 2(ones dice) + 0 (tens dice).

If you get 100 results each result represents 1%. If you get 19 results each result represents roughly 5%.

Good Hunting.

MR

[paulderynck]

No, the Zero die side is read as a 'Ten' and the results can go from 2 to 20. The odds for each of the 19 possible outcomes are as Mike stated in Post #52. Its like playing Craps with ten-sided dice instead of 6-sided dice.

Of course here we only speak of 2D10 which is an option for land combat. The majority of rolls in WIFFE and MWIF are 1D10.

[lomyrin]

With the 2D10 you first establish the odds in an attack and add any modifiers due to Armor etc.  A 1:1 attack is worth +2 to the 2d10 die roll.  A 5:1 attack is worth +10 to the dierolls.
 
In this manner the odds in the dieroll possible distribution indicates the chances for success in the attack. Add to that the uneven distribution of the net results for a given total roll, dierolls + the odds factor.
This makes one very unsure of the final outcomes unless the odds are very high to begin with.
 
Lars

[Mike Parker]

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
So they aren't used as percentile then but just increasing the range of possibilities from 11 to 19 and evening out the range to equal chances for all the numbers.

Again, that works for me better than the 2 six sided dice rolls.

Good Hunting.

MR

well as said its 1% to 10% for any given result. In essence there are 100 possible rolls of a pair of 10 siders. There is only ONE way to get a 2 (or 20) that is to roll both 1's (10's) and hence 1/100 or 1%. For a three there are two ways. 1 then 2 on the 10 siders, or 2 then 1, so 2/100 or 2% likewise for 19 you can roll 10 then 9 or 9 then 10. the most probable single result being 11 of which there are 10 ways of rolling so 10/100 = 10%. 11 also happens to be the expected value of the sum of two ten siders if your into statistics.

That's not what I understood the answer to be. I understood the answer is that the two 10 sided dice are simply added together. Giving a result of only from 2 to 20.

That doesn't make them a percentile result; the way it does if one of the dice is read as ten's and the other as one's. Then you get get results from 01 to 00 or 100 results and not 19.

If all we do is add the dice there are three ways to get a 2. 1+1, 2+0 and 0+2.

If we do percentile there is only one way to get a 2. 2(ones dice) + 0 (tens dice).

If you get 100 results each result represents 1%. If you get 19 results each result represents roughly 5%.

Good Hunting.

MR

Well each d10 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 so there is no 0, but if it were labeled 0-9 you would be correct.

The MAIN difference is that a straight d100 (or percentile reading one die as tens and one as units) is a uniform distribution. I.e. there is as much probability of observing a roll of 100 as there is of observing 13. in 2d10 meaning take two ten sided dice roll them and add, you get a humped distribution. Its much less likely to see the low or high results and much more likely to see results centered on the mean (or expected value which for 2d10 is 11).

So just to be clear, its NOT percentile, its a weighted distribution of probabilities. On easy way to see it is to form a 10x10 Matrix (yeah MATRIX!) and label the rows and columns 1-10 and fill in the entries by summing the row and column numbers. Then you will see a good graphical representation of the probabilities of generating any given result.

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: Mike Parker




Well each d10 is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 so there is no 0, but if it were labeled 0-9 you would be correct.

Maybe where you live. In more than 35 years of wargaming I've never seen a 10 sided die have anythig but 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 on them. I've never seen the number 10 on a ten side die before.

The MAIN difference is that a straight d100 (or percentile reading one die as tens and one as units) is a uniform distribution. I.e. there is as much probability of observing a roll of 100 as there is of observing 13. in 2d10 meaning take two ten sided dice roll them and add, you get a humped distribution. Its much less likely to see the low or high results and much more likely to see results centered on the mean (or expected value which for 2d10 is 11).

So just to be clear, its NOT percentile, its a weighted distribution of probabilities.

Yes, that's right.

On easy way to see it is to form a 10x10 Matrix (yeah MATRIX!) and label the rows and columns 1-10 and fill in the entries by summing the row and column numbers. Then you will see a good graphical representation of the probabilities of generating any given result.

It's relatively the same as two six sided dice added together.

Only with 19 results instead of 11.

Good Hunting.

MR

[LiquidSky]

How can it be a 10 sided die if it doesnt have a 10 on it? 

[Mad Russian]

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

How can it be a 10 sided die if it doesnt have a 10 on it? 

It has the number 0 not the number 10.

Good Hunting.

MR

[willycube]

You people amaze this post was about 3rd Reich not a die roll or two die roll or 10 die roll, isnt there a moderator here that can keep some people on track, start a new post on die rolls people please. Could we get back to 3rd Reich or is it over.

Willy