Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (Allies)

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

I know you wanted to keep the whereabouts of KB secret.  However, do you think using KB to Port Strike Manila might have been useful?  If nothing else you could have killed the majority of the Asiatic Fleet at port, then retreated KB into the mist.  Even with the high dud rate, effectively used subs can still be a very effective nuisance to Japanese shipping.  Some of them do explode, and any unescorted merchies are likely to be attacked on the surface.  Even if a sub uses its full complent of torps to kill a single ship, its worth it for the allies.  Plus, you never know when a lucky hit will put a fish in a CV or BB.

Obviously I don't know how effective your opponent is at sub ops, but a little bit of time spent with them by the Allies can pay big dividends.

I normally won't risk the KB like this early because it is hard to replace the aircraft this early and the risk of a lucky hit on one of my carriers could hurt. The AA is heavy at Manila, initially there are enough P-40s that some will get through to your Kates/Vals, and the allies do have those B-17s that can reach out and lucky hit you as well.

Aside from that, I dump mines at Bataan on turn 1, then move both subs and surface combat task forces into the Sulu Sea to catch the fleeing ships. In fact, in this game I like to kill most of the fleeing ships like this since it helps build experience for my cruiser and destroyer crews.

Usually, on turn 1 or two, I will direct my initial Betty and Nell strikes to Cavite (Manila) and then pound it down pretty good. In this game, I was certain that he would evacuate the port on turn 1 since surprise was off that I bombed Clark instead. He didn't initially evacuate, so on turn 3 I hit the port and sank several ships. I then bombed it for a few more turns. As predicted it flushed most of his ships and I bagged them as they escaped, getting just about every one of them.

My opponent has been very reserved with his subs. He has made several attacks at Pescadores, Takao, Vigan, Aparri, and Surgaio but just about all of the torpedoes have been duds. I have not accounted for 2/3 of his subs and they have not yet turned up off the coast of Japan. I am wondering if he has sent them straight to Pearl to preserve them until the torpedoes work better or to Java to defend there.

[Astarix]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz


I normally won't risk the KB like this early because it is hard to replace the aircraft this early and the risk of a lucky hit on one of my carriers could hurt. The AA is heavy at Manila, initially there are enough P-40s that some will get through to your Kates/Vals, and the allies do have those B-17s that can reach out and lucky hit you as well.

Aside from that, I dump mines at Bataan on turn 1, then move both subs and surface combat task forces into the Sulu Sea to catch the fleeing ships. In fact, in this game I like to kill most of the fleeing ships like this since it helps build experience for my cruiser and destroyer crews.

Usually, on turn 1 or two, I will direct my initial Betty and Nell strikes to Cavite (Manila) and then pound it down pretty good. In this game, I was certain that he would evacuate the port on turn 1 since surprise was off that I bombed Clark instead. He didn't initially evacuate, so on turn 3 I hit the port and sank several ships. I then bombed it for a few more turns. As predicted it flushed most of his ships and I bagged them as they escaped, getting just about every one of them.

My opponent has been very reserved with his subs. He has made several attacks at Pescadores, Takao, Vigan, Aparri, and Surgaio but just about all of the torpedoes have been duds. I have not accounted for 2/3 of his subs and they have not yet turned up off the coast of Japan. I am wondering if he has sent them straight to Pearl to preserve them until the torpedoes work better or to Java to defend there.

That makes sense. Given your planning, I can completely understand the desire to preserve the pilots and airframes.

I still think it would be worth your opponents time to make better use of his subs. Despite the dud rate they still can score some significant hits and create headaches for the JFB. Although, even with the new patrol and way-point features it can still take a lot of time to maximize sub ops, so he may not feel its worth it given the dud rates. Granted I'm only playing vs. the AI right now, but I think your opponent is missing a significant opportunity to create some headaches for you.

Thanks for the explanation and I'll be visiting this AAR frequently.

Jason

[Takeshi]

I'm reading your AAR with great interest as your IJ stategy is atypical. I'm waiting to see if success against the Soviets is possible. Soviet activation is awkward in AE. I suspect the Devs thought it would be crazy to try and the Soviets were in the game to keep the Kwangtung Army honest.

[Xxzard]

I took a look at the situation in Russia, and I don't see very much oil or resources.

So although what is there is useful, is the real reason for a Russia attack really freeing up troops for China or elsewhere?

If so, what are your plans for the extra troops assuming a successful campaign?

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Takeshi

I'm reading your AAR with great interest as your IJ stategy is atypical. I'm waiting to see if success against the Soviets is possible. Soviet activation is awkward in AE. I suspect the Devs thought it would be crazy to try and the Soviets were in the game to keep the Kwangtung Army honest.

The Red Army setup is strong. Makes you realize what an impact on the war the stalemate in the Far East had.

[seydlitz_slith]

I just ran turn 20 (December 26, 1941).

Most of the action was on the Russian Front. Both of us were active with our air.

[seydlitz_slith]

I started the turn off seeing the KB under attack.

[seydlitz_slith]

He even got some bombers through to the Soryu.
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Okha at 130,37

Weather in hex: Severe storms

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 30



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 10
I-153 x 1
SB-2 x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 2 destroyed
I-153: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CV Soryu

CAP engaged:
Akagi-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 5000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
Kaga-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
Soryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 11000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
Hiryu-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 8000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes
Shokaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes
1 planes vectored on to bombers
Zuikaku-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 12000 , scrambling fighters to 12000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes

[seydlitz_slith]

I pounded Vladivostok and Voroshilov by night and day.
Night Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 6
Ki-48-Ib Lily x 4


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-30 Ann: 1 damaged
Ki-48-Ib Lily: 1 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-30 Ann bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 1 x 100 kg GP Bomb
4 x Ki-48-Ib Lily bombing from 10000 feet *
Airfield Attack: 2 x 100 kg GP Bomb

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Air attack on Voroshilov , at 112,45

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Japanese aircraft
Ki-36 Ida x 6


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-36 Ida: 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
6 x Ki-36 Ida bombing from 11000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 30 kg GP Bomb

Raid spotted at 22 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

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Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 29



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 14
I-16m24 x 30


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 3 destroyed
I-16m24: 5 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
3 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 23000 feet

CAP engaged:
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (3 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Raid is overhead
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 5 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 37 minutes
70 IAD/305 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 3 minutes
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 44 minutes
29 IAD/307 IAP with I-153 (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Raid is overhead
70 IAD/308 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 4 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27



Allied aircraft
I-16m24 x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-16m24: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
27 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 26000 feet

CAP engaged:
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 1 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 1 minutes


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 42 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 21
G4M1 Betty x 25



Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 8 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 4 damaged

Allied Ships
SS ShCh-108, Bomb hits 1
DD Buistro, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAK Svyatozar, Bomb hits 1, on fire




Aircraft Attacking:
9 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
City Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
21 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb
11 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
Port Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb, 4 x 60 kg GP Bomb
3 x G4M1 Betty bombing from 7000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

CAP engaged:
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 20 minutes

Training flight from 70 IAD/306 IAP has been caught up in attack


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 38 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
G3M2 Nell x 6



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged




Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G3M2 Nell bombing from 6000 feet
Port Attack: 1 x 800 kg AP Bomb

CAP engaged:
10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP with I-16m24 (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 18 minutes
70 IAD/306 IAP with I-153 (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
29 IAD/307 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Training flight from 10 BABr-TOF/19 IAP has been caught up in attack
Training flight from 29 IAD/304 IAP has been caught up in attack
Training flight from 29 IAD/307 IAP has been caught up in attack


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 28 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 21
Ki-27b Nate x 4



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 2
I-16m24 x 2


Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
Ki-27b Nate: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-16m24: 2 damaged



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
20 x Ki-21-Ic Sally bombing from 6000 feet
Airfield Attack: 4 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
29 IAD/304 IAP with I-16m24 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
29 IAD/307 IAP with I-153 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 3



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 2
I-153 x 14


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
I-153: 1 destroyed



CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 2 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 34 minutes
34 SAD/47 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(3 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 5 minutes
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(6 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 3 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 40 minutes
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 2 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Vladivostok , at 112,46

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid detected at 10 NM, estimated altitude 28,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 9



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 1
I-153 x 10


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 2 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
9 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 26000 feet

CAP engaged:
32 SAD/5 IAP with I-153 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
34 SAD/47 IAP with I-153 (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
32 SAD/48 IAP with I-153 (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead
32 SAD/75 IAP with I-15bis (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 18000
Raid is overhead

[seydlitz_slith]

I hit some more of his ships in port, but still haven't made a dent.

[seydlitz_slith]

He flew very strong attacks at my positions in Kotou.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 4th Border Defense Fortress, at 116,42 (Kotou)

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 16 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes


Allied aircraft
I-16m24 x 8
SB-2 x 25


Allied aircraft losses
SB-2: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
6 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



Aircraft Attacking:
25 x SB-2 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kotou , at 116,42

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 40 NM, estimated altitude 13,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes


Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 15
DB-3M x 23
SB-2 x 36


No Allied losses



Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 11

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x SB-2 bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb
18 x DB-3M bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb
18 x SB-2 bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb
5 x DB-3M bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kotou , at 116,42

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 10 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 3 minutes


Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 2
DB-3M x 13


No Allied losses



Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 5

Aircraft Attacking:
13 x DB-3M bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 10 x 100 kg GP Bomb


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Kotou , at 116,42

Weather in hex: Heavy rain

Raid spotted at 12 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes


Allied aircraft
TB-3 x 18


Allied aircraft losses
TB-3: 1 damaged



Runway hits 7

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x TB-3 bombing from 8000 feet
Airfield Attack: 8 x 250 kg GP Bomb



I am wondering if he moved some of his forces north and away from the coast to avoid destruction. If not, he has yet another strong stack of air that I will have to deal with.

[seydlitz_slith]

He also made smaller air attacks at Hailar, Shikuku, and against my ground units stranded at Petropavlovsk. No major damage at any of these points.

Here is the tally of Japanese aircraft losses for the turn:

[seydlitz_slith]

Here are the allied losses. Even with fog of war, his losses are starting to mount.

[seydlitz_slith]

Here is my leader board showing my first aces....

[seydlitz_slith]

Since we are talking about losses, I might as well show my aircraft pools.

[seydlitz_slith]

And the rest of it

[seydlitz_slith]

China was very quiet this turn so no map needed.

On Luzon I kicked him out of Lucena and before long I will be knocking on Manila from the south.

[seydlitz_slith]

Over in the Solomans, the Australian and New Zealand cruiser force tried to engage my Tulagi landing force but I escaped after unloading troops and supplies. They then headed for my Shortlands landing force, but in reality both forces are bait. I have a force of cruisers NE of Shortlands that should engage them next turn.

[seydlitz_slith]

Not much changed in Borneo. I am about to land in Beaufort.

[seydlitz_slith]

In Malaya, my troops are slowly moving along.