Map error

[squadleader_id]

Another one like Isigny...all buildings with "Wood Floor" graphics coded as "Stone Floor" in Ouistreham.
BTW, about the fix in the beta patch for Les Forges (top of this thread)...the building is now coded as Level 1 structure...but the building shadow needs to be fixed...looks like Level 2 building shadow to me [;)]

And what about Hedgerow elevation coding?
tm.asp?m=2131267

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: samarobriva


@squadleader Where did you got that Spot picture ?

Uncle Google and Google Maps of course [;)]

[squadleader_id]

A closer look at Hedgerow coding...

Hedgerows coding on new maps are different from the original CC5 maps (which are also included in CCTLD).
On the original CC5 maps (and the GJS maps), Hedgerows are coded with raised elevation (to represent the raised earth/mounds they were planted on). On the new CCTLD maps, Hedgerows are on level ground...without elevation coding...also (new) Bocage element is usually added in the center of Hedgerows.

Anyone notice this? On the new maps it's easier to get LOS through Hedgerows 'cause they're not as high as Hedgerows on the original maps?

Original maps:





New map:

[Andrew Williams]

My personal view is the hedgerows should not be raised... otherwise it leads to massive LOS when you are on top of the hedges.

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

My personal view is the hedgerows should not be raised... otherwise it leads to massive LOS when you are on top of the hedges.

Fair enough...then the old maps should be recoded too...so we get one standard style of coding for all the maps.
IMHO...Large Hedgerows should be on raised ground...Small Hedgerows can be on level ground.

Here's an interesting read:
http://www.lonesentry.com/normandy_lessons/index.html

[Andrew Williams]

You can see where the hedgerows are breached they bring the height down.... they actually went through the hedgrows not over them.

In CC if they are left raised then LOS is from the top, much like being being in a church tower... also leaving tanks stranded with every AT gun able to target them.

[w777h]

How do you handle troops moving and shooting through the walls of a wooden building?

Would that coding be more appropriate given how dense those hedgerows are supposed to be?

[Senior Drill]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

You can see where the hedgerows are breached they bring the height down.... they actually went through the hedgrows not over them.

In CC if they are left raised then LOS is from the top, much like being being in a church tower... also leaving tanks stranded with every AT gun able to target them.

I haven't see very many church towers that were only 1.5 to 2 meters above the ground level. Andrew. Especially ones that are covered with trees. Have you? The American tanks only started to go through the hedgerows with explosives and the Culin device on "rhinos" in late Jun '44 and the full use wasn't until Operation Cobra starting on the 25th of June, '44. Well after the end of CCTLD's campaign scope.

Having the possibility of a tank getting stranded on top of a two meter high hedgerow via immobilization from the LOS blocking hedgerow tree elements is exactly what happened to many tanks. What then, is your objection? The maps need to be recoded to be like the original CC5 maps with higher terrain elevation of the hedgerows. The net effect is to REDUCE the overall LOS because of the tree elements on the higher terrain.

Andrew, your obstinate obstructionism on this topic shows great corporate loyalty, which is as commendable as it is politically confusing. But it ain't getting something in TLD that was done wrong in the first place fixed.

[Andrew Williams]

it's my understanding that driving "over" the hedgerows was practically impossible... that's why they kept to the roads.


When the hedgerows were dug out the tanks passed through... even before the culin device.... see the dug out gaps in the pics above, they didn't do that 'cause they just liked digging.

There are impassable hedgerows that are just too big to dig out, coded at bocage in the game.


Tanks standing out like beacons on top of hedgerows was one of the bugs reported from original CC5.

If they got to the top they would have just crashed down the other side... not be able to maneouvre about as they can do in CC5

[Andrew Williams]

Although there was this





or look here

http://www.vii-corps.org/WWII/Chapter03.htm

[squadleader_id]

Hedgerows are crushable elements...so if the dice rolls are good and a tank can climb and plow through a hedgerow...you end up with a cleared patch of hedgerows.
Hedgerows can also be destroyed or crushed when hit by HE shells...and turns into wood rubble.
There was a bug in CC5 though...sometimes hedgerows would explode when a tank drives thorugh them.
Hedgerows are not building elements...so infantry directly on top of hedgerows are standing on the raised ground...not climbing on the hedgerow vegetation (As high as church steeples? Really? [:)]).
Tanks stuck on top of the raised ground of hedgerows and becoming easy prey for ATG and AT Teams are realistic and historic...dunno why this is considered as a bug [&:].
Also tanks are not stuck on top of hedgerow vegetation...because the vegetation is crushed/cleared when a tank drives over them (crushable elements file).



Shreckie, if the dev team feels so strongly about how hedgerows are represented in the game and decided to code hedgerows differently for new CCTLD maps with the intention to fix unconfirmed CC5 bugs...then why weren't all the hedgerows on the original CC5 maps and also the BO and GJS maps recoded in the "new" way for CCTLD?  Strange decision...and pretty half-assed effort don't you think? [;)]

[Andrew Williams]

Yes I do


That sherman is driving over a hill and hs a Culin device so doesn't belong in this discussion.

[Senior Drill]

I still don't understand the reticence for acknowledging that the original CC5 maps used in TLD were not coded correctly in regards to the hedgerows and that they need to be fixed. Any purported bug from the original CC5 that tanks stand out like becons when only 2 meters above the surrounding terrain and within a tree element is spurious at best. It was never a "bug". Those claims were the result of ignorant player observations and well defeated in the forums of the time. Duh, if you are in a two meter tall tank on a mound that is two meters taller than the surrounding terrain, you are going to have greater LOS both coming and going. Becon? Hardly. Present an exposed low angle belly shot to the hedgerow across the field? Certainly.

There is no "crashing down the other side" or manuevering on top of hedgerows. Even with original CC5 there was enough flexibility within the Elements file to make passible hedgerows and impassible hedgerows. With the expanded Elements file for TLD, there can be several spins and flavors for element quarks. I know, because I am the one that added most of them back into the file way back in CCRAF days. A stairstep of three elevation terrains, one at +1 over the "flat field", a center at +1.5 or +2 with a hedgerow tree or bocage element on it and a +1 to step down the other side produces no "crash down". That's 18 pixels worth of terrain elevation covered by a tree graphic that is over 28 pixels wide.

A wall of +2 terrain elevation defeats AI pathing without a determined ordering sequence by the player. That's three element tiles that would provide an LOS block to the TLD maps that existed in CC5, stopping the unrealistic rifle fire though a hedgerow to the treeline on the other side of the field, allow movement along the road parallel to a hedgerow without taking fire (more realism) at Sneak for +1 hedgerow elevations and Move Fast for +2 (like it was in '44).

The faults in the TLD original CC5 maps have been identified and justified. Solutions have been outlined. What is the real issue here? Is it that there simply is no money available to pay anyone to spend the time to fix the mistakes? Ok, that's understandable if that is the case. If it is, just say so. No shame there; It might just be a lean business environment.

If we, the dissatisfied players, were to present a set of recoded maps for "official" review and testing that gains the blessings of the high priests, would that be enough to justify a third patch? Or at least be a sponsored and recommended download? We got the bodies and a variable time frame. It could happen with some support and guidence.

'Course, ya'll could jes get off yer collective asses and git 'er done.

[squadleader_id]

Thanks for the long and detailed technical explaination, Drill.
I'm still a bit confused though...
"New coding of hedgerows without raised elevation" on new CCTLD maps are the ones that needs fixing, right?
I don't think there were any probs with hedgerows coding (with raised elevation) on the original CC5 maps (also GJS and BO maps).
Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

[Andrew Williams]

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be recoded.

I am expressing my opinion on how they should be coded

[Senior Drill]

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Thanks for the long and detailed technical explaination, Drill.

You mean "long winded and pedantically detailed technical explanation", don't you. Can't help it, it is just the way I am. But, yer welcome.

I'm still a bit confused though...

Join the club. As the newest member, it is your turn to refill the ice bucket.

"New coding of hedgerows without raised elevation" on new CCTLD maps are the ones that needs fixing, right?

Yes. Those are the ones that are seemingly transparent to rifle and MG fire. Raised terrain elevation of the of hedgerow elements would provide an LOS block from the ajoining fields. If it is bocage country, the farthest you should be able to see from a hedgerow is the crest of the next hedgerow, with the possible execption of that exampled church steeple. It should be the terrain elevation that provides the majority of the LOS blocking, not the terrain element. In TLD one can shoot through at least one and in certain locations two hedgerows to the treeline across the second field. Only in Kansas. Not in Normandy.

I don't think there were any probs with hedgerows coding (with raised elevation) on the original CC5 maps (also GJS and BO maps).

I agree. Other than the exploding hedgerows, which was an error in the Crush To or Rubble To column of the elements file, the elevated terrain provided the LOS blocking that allowed players to mass behind large hedgerows within mere meters of enemy troops on the other side. Something that is impossible to do in TLD.

Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

Addressed above. It all boils down to the lack of an elevation LOS block because the trees are set on flat, or same elevation, ground that is the same as the field elements they are next to. One could create and define 10, 20 or 30 different bocage or hedge elements with varying degress of LOS blocking or transparency: Heavy, Medium, Light, Heavy Barren, Medium Barren, Light Barren, Snow Heavy Barren, Snow Medium Barren .... ect and ad naseum, each with a varying degree of LOS cumulative blocking properties. But why bother?!!!! Simply raising the terrain element's elevation by the allowed .5 meter increments allows the map coder to a wealth of possibilities with just the few hedgerow and bocage elements:

A traversalbe slope with light cover and low probablility of immobilzation.
A traversalbe slope with light cover and high probablility of immobilzation.
A non-traversalbe slope with light cover for tall units (big tanks).
A non-traversalbe slope with heavy cover for tall units (big tanks).
A breachable section of hedgerow (a crushable to or rubble to hedgerow element) atop a .5 or 1 meter or 1.5 meter terrain elevation...

... And many, many more.

Maybe another should be added: For those that long for the pre-patch CC5 days, a mined (exploding) hedgerow element on an enticing potential breach only .5 meters tall. The tools are already in place for TLD maps to replicate CC5, BO and GJS maps, it just needs an effort by the St3 boys to make it happen.

[Andrew Williams]

squid suggests there is an issue with seeing through hedgerows because of their height.

Height doesn't effect being able to see through .. only over.

See pic below the original map has varying heights coded into the hedgerow also higher grey blips mixed into the lower black sections.

[Senior Drill]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be recoded.

I am expressing my opinion on how they should be coded

Pardon me, Andrew, but I believe that you have a stick empacked somewhere. SL and I have been trying to extract it, but you don't seem to want it to budge. Perhaps if we were to rotate it.....

[squadleader_id]

ORIGINAL: Senior Drill

ORIGINAL: squadleader_id

Another thing...what about the strange new CCTLD LOS glitches of firing across hedgerows that weren't present in CC5?

Addressed above. It all boils down to the lack of an elevation LOS block because the trees are set on flat, or same elevation, ground that is the same as the field elements they are next to. One could create and define 10, 20 or 30 different bocage or hedge elements with varying degress of LOS blocking or transparency: Heavy, Medium, Light, Heavy Barren, Medium Barren, Light Barren, Snow Heavy Barren, Snow Medium Barren .... ect and ad naseum, each with a varying degree of LOS cumulative blocking properties. But why bother?!!!! Simply raising the terrain element's elevation by the allowed .5 meter increments allows the map coder to a wealth of possibilities with just the few hedgerow and bocage elements:

The thing is...there are strange LOS glitches (LOS across multiple hedgerows) on the original maps (with proper hedgerow on elevation coding).
The glitch was reported at CCS (which I can't seem to load at the moment)...IIRC it was reported on La Fiere...a map with original CC5 coding but with different LOS results for CC5 and CCTLD [&:]

[Andrew Williams]

I wouldn't argue the the point that LOS through the hedgrows is too easy now.

Simply turning on the Can block LOS flag (as in GJS) seems to fix it column AB in elements