The Map

[Hard Sarge]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

I can´t believe what I´m reading here. This is supposed to be a wargame, for wargamers, not the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer.

You inherited a game with an already very extensive and detailed OOB and a crappy map... which you spent years turning into a game with an even more insanely detailed OOB and the same crappy map.

Don´t give me that shit about "what does it matter"? Tell me instead, what does it matter to have 18000 historical pilots in the database, about all except 50-100 or so of which 99% of the players have never heard and who they wouldn´t miss if they weren´t there. Yet you went through all the insane effort to put them in anyway.
Then you turn around and keep that travesty of a map essentially as it is... apparently thinking that most gamers are too ignorant to notice all the glaring mistakes, and those suckers that do notice them (including the vast majority of Europeans who buy the game, and are NOT too ignorant to notice that half the Rhine is missing, for example) just don´t matter. You just don´t give a ****ing damn, which is an insult to those of your players who have half a clue about European geography.

And don´t tell me to make a map mod if I don´t like your map. I paid the money for a full-price game for this; it is not my task to do your job for you.

as I have already said, this is what they gave me to work with, so it is what I worked with

[Dixie]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

There´s WitP-AE. They face much more extreme constraints, working with a 40nm hex map rather than a 1 mile grid, yet they end up with as good a likeness to the real geography as they could fit into the constraints of the engine. And at least they decided it is worth putting as much effort into getting the map right as into everything else.

And the BtR map isn´t "customizing" - it´s just plain wrong. The position of the industries relative to the cities, that´s customizing, because they´d overlap and often enough you´d have two or more targets in the same grid square - and I´m certainly not complaining about that. Stuff like what I´ve point out on the opening post graphic, on the other hand, is just plain lazily carelessly wrong.

Maybe there are some things that HS and team couldn't control... As far as I am aware, none of the actual team are "full-time" artists so redrawing the entire map isn't something they could easily do. If they had redrawn the entire map in the spare time they had then we'd still be waiting (and would be for a looooooong time) for the game.

[JudgeDredd]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

So having a "some" areas a few mm away from where they are meant to be makes it "the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer. "

That´s nothing like what I said. Perhaps you should read my post again.

Well I apologise, but I took this

I can´t believe what I´m reading here. This is supposed to be a wargame, for wargamers, not the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer

to mean that because of these glaring map issues the game would be more likened to a mass market C&C game...and that doesn't make sense.

Also

If it was "a few suburbs a few mm out on the map", I wouldn´t be complaining. I´m saying the map is an eyesore for offering no more than a rough resemblance to an actual map of Europe.

is a ridiculous statement. The map is perfectly acceptable as a strategic map of Europe for an air campaign. Ground campaign may well be a different story...but the game representing an air campaign over Europe? The map is more than acceptable. Your example, which you and I are speaking of, shows a few suburbs a few mm apart. So you are complaining about a few suburbs a few mm apart in your original post. You even showed a picture to prove your point.

You come from the area. So you have a personal interest in the area and have noticed abnormalities. That's normal I guess. But shouting about it seems mad. It does not affect the gameplay as is. It doesn't mean bombers or fighters cannot reach the area because it's moved so far as to make it unreachable. To have a map like that would require fixing. As it is, it's aesthetic at best and does not need fixing.

But I have no input in what gets fixed and what doesn't...I just hope something like this is last on their list. I hope the first to be fixed is the issue with multi core. Others might want their CTD fixed (of which I have not had). You want the map fixed. I guess we'll each get our fix as and when the devs deem it appropriate/necessary to look at.

Clearly it's important to you, so I hope you get it fixed.

[Dobey455]

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: Dobey

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?

HA!!! A good question???

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

There´s WitP-AE. They face much more extreme constraints, working with a 40nm hex map rather than a 1 mile grid, yet they end up with as good a likeness to the real geography as they could fit into the constraints of the engine. And at least they decided it is worth putting as much effort into getting the map right as into everything else.

And the BtR map isn´t "customizing" - it´s just plain wrong. The position of the industries relative to the cities, that´s customizing, because they´d overlap and often enough you´d have two or more targets in the same grid square - and I´m certainly not complaining about that. Stuff like what I´ve point out on the opening post graphic, on the other hand, is just plain lazily carelessly wrong.

Well, BUB, you have some choices. Don't buy the game, but it sounds like you've already done that. Play it and enjoy it for what it is. Or make your own if you don't like other's interpretation of the subject matter.

Live with it. You are starting to sound like a annoying "Broken" record.

[Hard Sarge]

if the target areas/ target placements are wrong, I can try and make changes to those, I myself, can't do anything about the map they are sitting on

most of the placements so far being talked about, are what was there to start with, sites I put in, I tried to use Google Earth, and or other maps, sources, and then place them as close as I could based on other sites around them (which if the early site was wrong, it makes my placement even shakier)

I did get a lot of help from people who lived in some of these areas, and worked with them, to get those areas set up

plus as OB says about England, a big hassle we got is the sites them selfs, so some are shifted out of place, to make them show up, be targeted

I am willing to work on the data, I can't do anything about the map

[KenchiSulla]

Some parts are pretty accurate. Good enough for me. I don't think the team deserves this attitude.

Could it have been better? Yes. But then again, what or whoever, other then me, myself and I ever got to a state of perfection?

[8D]

[Toby42]

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Some parts are pretty accurate. Good enough for me. I don't think the team deserves this attitude.

Could it have been better? Yes. But then again, what or whoever, other then me, myself and I ever got to a state of perfection?

[8D]

AMEN!!! to that...

[JudgeDredd]

Ok - SireChaos bought the game. He's found something in it that bugs him. We've all done that. Is it minor to most other people? Probably. Is it major to some other people? Possibly.

The point is he's bought a game and he has a gripe with it. Personally I see it as the equivalent to rivet counting in a flight sim...but he's paid his money and something in it bugs him and he would like it fixed. To be honest here, suggesting the guy fixes it himself isn't the answer. It appears there are "issues" (major or minor to individuals) and that someone has a legitimate request to the devs to fix it.

Like I said, I would like other things to be looked as a priority over this...he would like this looked at.

So I think it should be dropped here and his request can be handled by the dev team. There's no point in beating anyone up over this...his request is as valid as anyone elses. There's nothing worse than spotting something in a game that annoys you...'cos you won't see past it.

[Bomber Harris]

Did nobody else see earlier in this thread where someone voluntered to work on the map?

[Oliver Heindorf]

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Ok - SireChaos bought the game. He's found something in it that bugs him. We've all done that. Is it minor to most other people? Probably. Is it major to some other people? Possibly.

The point is he's bought a game and he has a gripe with it. Personally I see it as the equivalent to rivet counting in a flight sim...but he's paid his money and something in it bugs him and he would like it fixed. To be honest here, suggesting the guy fixes it himself isn't the answer. It appears there are "issues" (major or minor to individuals) and that someone has a legitimate request to the devs to fix it.

Like I said, I would like other things to be looked as a priority over this...he would like this looked at.

So I think it should be dropped here and his request can be handled by the dev team. There's no point in beating anyone up over this...his request is as valid as anyone elses. There's nothing worse than spotting something in a game that annoys you...'cos you won't see past it.

Good post Mr Dredd ! ( Not to say you are a judge ) [;)] [:D]

Being german I wondered myself about the map and some things here and there. But I never dared to past about that - becasue I dont care. I am with the posters here saying it is not that important. there are other important things to go after.

the team does not deserve these words, mr chaos. in other words : beruhig dich, Burschi

[Derfel]

The map is actally not that good, but this is not a new game ans as it is still in development [;)], I hope that we can give some input and hopefully they might be implemented.

For example the radar sites are a bit odd.
For a good site that show where the radarsites were located go to http://gyges.dk. That site has some very good sources on the location of radars all over Europe, even the mobile/Eisenbahn Radars that were employed. (Another idea to the wishlist?) [&o]

For example look at the Danish Radar sites here:
http://gyges.dk/Flugmeldemess%20Stellungen.htm

You will see that the radar position called Fredericia is located near Esbjerg in the game. Fredericia is located at the eastern coast, Esbjerg is at the Western coast.
Esbjerg is called Büffel on the map, Fredericia had no radar, the most close position would be the Fledermaus position.
Oh by the way I live in Denmark [8D] although I am geographically challenged(spelling?).

[Hard Sarge]

Thank you, if I have something to work with, I got a better chance of fixing it

Radar is as is, I didn't really have too much on where they were, so left them as is

from I see, it looks like the top of Denmark is cut off, can you tell me where cut off and the radar map, match up ?

[Derfel]

As far as I can see then this is the cut off line.

This means that the Airfields of Aalborg and Frederikshavn are above the line, therefore they still have to be positioned aproximately where they are now.

[Hard Sarge]

thank you, that give me a much better idea of the area

I got a screen capture of the page, so will see what I can

[SireChaos]

ORIGINAL: Treale

ORIGINAL: Dobey

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?

HA!!! A good question???

That´s because, educated person that I am, I know that there are such things as maps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Map), and I know it is possible to look at them and see what regions look like.

Plus I know how to read, and read what the WitP-AE map team has written about its work. Nevermind that AE actually has a map team, something the BtR team obviously couldn´t be bothered with.

[kirbykern]

I really don't think the OOB/map comparison is fair. The map(s) are very detailed pieces of artwork requiring, I assume, a huge amount of time on someones part to create or change. Then there is the logistics of lining up the target information with the map art. Again, not a trivial task.
 
The OOB is simply a database. You are not creating a piece of art for each and every pilot, for instance.
 
Every development team needs to prioritize and pick their battles carefully. Personally, I think the OOB is more important than the map. Others may disagree.

[Golden Bear]

OK, can we put this to bed? We recognize that somebody or somebodies are upset about the map.

Somebody has volunteered to try to improve it... BTW I took a look at the art and decided that would be the least of the problems. Moving cities around becomes a huge issue. If the poor fellow who has volunteered can have permission to leave them alone and try to clean up some geography around them, it might be doable.

Carlos

[Nicholas Bell]

[/quote]

If the poor fellow who has volunteered can have permission to leave them alone and try to clean up some geography around them, it might be doable.

That's me [:)] . The problem with that idea is the geography cannot be fixed and made any better because the map does not conform to any map projection - everything is distorted. As I mentioned, when I attempted to fix the geography graphics (the map you see) it only highlighted the distortion in target locations - especially on the coast. So it really needs to be done from the ground up.

What this entails is sizing & scaling an actual map of the area so that it works within the game's coordinate system. I'm pretty sure that the coordinate system is pixel based, although I could be wrong. In any case once you have a real map overlaid on the coordinate map it isn't particularily difficult to note that town "ABC" is located a coordinate X,Y.

I acknowledge that some "fudging" will be necessary to prevent target overlap in the map - that is standard stuff in wargaming.

One thing that might nix the whole idea is if some coordinate information is hard-coded, ie front line data, specific "invisible" stuff Harley has mentioned, or other features. I am not proposing to make more work for him!