Surrender question

[Skanvak]

England surrender inconditionnally to France and cede 3 territory scotland, wales and ireland. Which means that England is reduce to Enngland and free state of Egypt. I thought that EiA rules that it is not possible to reduce a MP below 3 provinces? Does it means that MP can be conquer totally in the computare game?

[Skanvak]

Ok, the game allow to reduce country to one province.

Could we have the option to set a minimum number of province for a MP under which no more province can be ceded (because Prussia reduced to Brandenburg is well, you might as well allow conquest of MP capital). By the way England should count as 2 or 3 provinces in such an option as it is a too big area.

[DCWhitworth]

You have misremembered the rule - "11.9.1.1 RESTRICTIONS ON TERRITORIAL LOSSES: No major power with a player may ever have its home nation reduced by more than a total of three provinces. "

So the game behaviour is correct here. The rule is you can't lose more than three provinces, not you can't be reduced below three provinces.

[Skanvak]

My bad, you are right.

Does that means that in a conditional peace, 3 winning MP can ask to 1 provinces (therefore 3 provinces in total).

I still think that such an option would be nice, really. Because if you can reduce a MP to one province, for most of them (ie all except England and Russia) that mean being reduced to a minor power status with no hope do do anything.

[DCWhitworth]

No again to your question. Each peace condition can only be picked once per peace so if you surrender simultaneously to three enemies then only one of them can pick to remove a province. In fact the conditional/unconditional conditions are also mutually exclusive.

However if you surrender to the three countries on different turns then there is nothing to stop them all picking to remove provinces.

[Skanvak]

Ok that what I thought in first place.

So, as the rule is clear now, what do you thing of such an option?

[Marshall Ellis]

I would advise against it because it could utterly destroy an MP and deviate from historical land exchange quantities. If you surrendered to multiple MPs at once (Often occured with alliances) then it could shatter an MP which really did not happen much if you allowed more than 3 provinces to be taken in one sue for peace step.

[Jimmer]

Don't forget that a nation can only take a province if it has forces in that province, or already owns a territory that borders it. I'm not sure how this is implemented in the PC game, but it makes it hard to take any provinces at all from the UK without invading.

[Mardonius]

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I would advise against it because it could utterly destroy an MP and deviate from historical land exchange quantities. If you surrendered to multiple MPs at once (Often occured with alliances) then it could shatter an MP which really did not happen much if you allowed more than 3 provinces to be taken in one sue for peace step.

Tell that to Poland...

[obsidiandrag]

Which in essence is broken as you CAN take more than 3 provinces in this version, only with different surrenders. Each unconditional can get you 3 more home provinces..

OD

[Skanvak]

Marshall, you misundertand what I mean by "option".

I mean the option to set a minimum number of province for each MP. That is if Prussia is reduce to 3 provinces, no more provinces can be ceded in any circonstances.

Because, palying alone against all the AI (ok no challenge here), France was able to destroy both Austria and Prussia, England too in fact, with a sequence of peace treaty (prussia reduce to 1 territory, Austria 3, England 2). And as obsidiandragon told, several seperate peace can be devastating and reduce a country like Prussia in a one province state in a year or two making the rest of the game moot for this player.

An other solution would be to allow annexion of a MP to avoid useless MP to exist. I really see no point in one province country (especially when the province is the Ile de France or Constantinople).

[ndrose]

Actually, I believe the original option was to limit the total *reduction* in home provinces to three. This would leave most countries with a lot more than three provinces; but in the case of GB it would still be possible to reduce it to one.

On the other hand, some of the EiA provinces were bigger than the EiANW ones, so three provinces could hurt a bit more than it would now. (Hungary was one province, iirc.) Adapting this option to EiANW might take a bit of tweaking.

[Marshall Ellis]

ORIGINAL: Mardonius

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

I would advise against it because it could utterly destroy an MP and deviate from historical land exchange quantities. If you surrendered to multiple MPs at once (Often occured with alliances) then it could shatter an MP which really did not happen much if you allowed more than 3 provinces to be taken in one sue for peace step.

Tell that to Poland...

Ok, I guess there were a few victims LOL!

[Skanvak]

Actually, I believe the original option was to limit the total *reduction* in home provinces to three. This would leave most countries with a lot more than three provinces; but in the case of GB it would still be possible to reduce it to one.

On the other hand, some of the EiA provinces were bigger than the EiANW ones, so three provinces could hurt a bit more than it would now. (Hungary was one province, iirc.) Adapting this option to EiANW might take a bit of tweaking.

I have to re-read. But it will make waging for territory rare; but on the other hands, it make ceding one province in a conditional more appealing. That certainly increase Prussian survival.

I would, nevertheless treat country differently as the Ottoman Empire 5turkey) or Russia can lose more than 3 Provinces. That is a bit becasue the game consider that some occupied territories (Polands, balkans and Greece) are unceded province and not occupied provinces. I would make difference between unceded province national provinces and unceded contested provinces (lorraine, balkans, Poland), the former would be uncedable or strictlly limited in the number to be ceded.

One last question : is it normal that Russia can give up Karelia (and St pet) in an unconditional surrender?

I will look at original rules and EiA map this evenning and make a suggestion.

[ndrose]

One last question : is it normal that Russia can give up Karelia (and St pet) in an unconditional surrender?

No. I think this is already listed at Mantis as a bug, and supposed to be fixed someday.

[Marshall Ellis]

Yea, I will get to it when I can. Probably 1.08!
Wasn't a problem when St Pete's wasn't set as a capital! LOL!

[Skanvak]

I agree with DCwhitworth on the reading of 11.9.1.1. The rules say that the total number of ceded provinces may ever exceed 3 provinces.

Thought I do think that offering this Balance of power as an option is good. As a futher option it should be applied only to human player and not AI (that will authorized the player to treat AI as minor power). The AI will suffer civil disorder too (civil disorder as per EIA rules).

I would like see the civil disorder (rules 8.7) is correctly implemented because it does allow for conquest of a country (like the conquest of Poland).

I begin to see the good in both rules. It is the actual that is not good as it allow for a player to be reduced to a minor power but not be eliminated. That is a problem.

As an option, because I don't like the no more than 3 province implemented as it for all MP. I will suggest this option as a fourth possibility :

England : England cannot be ceded.
France : cannot cede Ile de France and Berry; and cannot be reduced below 6 provinces.
Turkey : cannot cede Constantinople and Anatolia; and cannot be reduced to less than 4 provinces total. (I really think that Turkey could be thrown out of Europe)
Russia : cannot cede Karelia, Novgorod and Moscow; and cannot be reduced to less than 5 provinces total.
Austria : cannot cede Austria; and cannot be reduced to less than 5 provinces. (I wonder if I should made Hungary uncedable? but as Tyrol can be ceded, I don't see which province cannot be ceded.)
Prussia : cannot cede Brandenburg and cannot be reduced to less than 4 provinces.
Spain : cannot cede New Castille; and cannot be reduced to less than 5 provinces

This last option is a proposal in beta and not tested, feel free to improve on it. The other three, I really think they must be included quickly.

[Skanvak]

Marshal,

Do you have plan to implement 11.9.1.1. (balance of power) and 8.7 (civil disorder that result in MP being destroyed). I really want to see 8.7 be implemented (at least for IA controlled MP or UMP).

[Marshall Ellis]

No plans as of yet and if we do put them on the list is would be a ways out BUT I am listening and willing...

[Skanvak]

The point is that you implemented a half 11.9.1.1. (balance of power) that result in an imbalance in the end.

The mandatory acceptation of an unconditionnal surrender is the counter part of the limit of 3 provinces ceeded. The normal rule is 8.7 that authorize full conquest of a MP. The idea is that either a country is able to play or it is fully conquer, but it should never be reduced to a one province unconquerable but unplayable either.

I'd like other player opinion on this topic because I begin to repeat myself (which is not an argument).