Nomonhan Redux: Seydlitz (Japan) vs. MBatch729 (Allies)

[ComradeP]

The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.

seydlitz: do those tank losses more or less mean you have to build up the units from scratch? What do you have in the area to keep the Soviets from moving west (on the map), and fight your depleted tank stack?

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.

seydlitz: do those tank losses more or less mean you have to build up the units from scratch? What do you have in the area to keep the Soviets from moving west (on the map), and fight your depleted tank stack?

Absolutely agree on the biplanes. Hopefully Elf will see the summaries.

Regarding the armor, I have replacements on so they will rebuild over a few weeks. He only has one LCU in the hex, and if he tries to move west with it the computer will route him to the wooded road hex SW of Spassk first, where I have a combined arms stack waiting. That will contain the problem for now, and I have a bunch of units on their way to land at Olga that should finish the issue shortly.

[vlcz]

The losses against the bi-planes are silly, if the bi-planes were as effective in real life as they are in this game, the Luftwaffe would've been butchered instead of some pilots getting hundreds of kills because Soviet pilots were such poor flyers and their aircraft might be nice by design, but lacked in production quality until very late in the war.

The comparison is futile.

Luftwaffe pilots, tactics and personel in late 41 had more than two years of war experience, they surely could score hundreds of kills against IJA airforce too.

[Smeulders]

You actually seem pretty close to a victory around Vladivostok. What percentage of Russian forces do you think are in the cut off area ? And what are your plans if you destroy them, redeploy troops to drive the remaining Russians North or will the troops be sent somewhere else ?

[ComradeP]

Regarding the armor, I have replacements on so they will rebuild over a few weeks.

OK. Based on the combat results screen showing one of your units at 0 value, I thought you might be running out of replacements. As your earlier industry screenshots showed that your vehicle pool seemed to have a decent production schedule going, I was wondering why one of the tank regiments was at 0 strength and if you could take more losses. It seems you can.

Did you see where the rifle division came from btw, or did your tanks simply run into them?

The comparison is futile.

Luftwaffe pilots, tactics and personel in late 41 had more than two years of war experience, they surely could score hundreds of kills against IJA airforce too.

Many of the Luftwaffe pilots in mid 1941 had never fought a Russian plane, and most certainly not in the plane they were flying in at the time (Bf109 E or F).

Around 140 Bf 109's were send to Spain during their civil war. Keep in mind that many of these versions had the same kind of impressive armament as the early Nate: two MG's. They knocked the Republican bi-planes out of the sky. The Germans themselves discovered that the He 51 wasn't much of a fighter.

In late 1941/early 1942, the Japanese pilots flying at the time had possibly fought Soviet aircraft during the skirmishes with the Russians, such as during Khalkin Ghol and in China.

They were still flying the same kind of aircraft, namely the Nate. Luftwaffe pilots during the Spanish Civil War were fresh out of flight school and had never fought anything before, their edge was a superior plane. The Oscar and the Zero should be clearly superior to any bi-planes, especially as their armament is superior to the early (A to D) Bf 109 models which, with inexperienced pilots, could take out Republican Soviet bi-planes.

Bi-planes are a nuisance if they fly over your airfield when you're asleep, but as long as you're in a modern monoplane, it probably isn't going to shoot you down. The bi-planes in this game seem to have AMRAAMs.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

You actually seem pretty close to a victory around Vladivostok. What percentage of Russian forces do you think are in the cut off area ? And what are your plans if you destroy them, redeploy troops to drive the remaining Russians North or will the troops be sent somewhere else ?

Most will drive north to drive the remaining Russians off the map. Some units will join other offenses but my primary purpose will be to finish off the Soviet Union. I am not playing for a victory point win, so having these units later in the war instead of sitting on a static front will be important.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

OK. Based on the combat results screen showing one of your units at 0 value, I thought you might be running out of replacements. As your earlier industry screenshots showed that your vehicle pool seemed to have a decent production schedule going, I was wondering why one of the tank regiments was at 0 strength and if you could take more losses. It seems you can.

Did you see where the rifle division came from btw, or did your tanks simply run into them?

I have the tanks to replace the current losses but I am very worried about the vehicle pool. I can not replace all of my motor transport losses. Even though I significantly increased vehicle production, the battles around Voroshilov have basically depleted it and I am living hand to mouth. Some vehicle pool devices are at zero and others still have some replacements made.

[seydlitz_slith]

Turn 72 16 Feb 1942

How about this for the first daylight phase action of the turn.....

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Submarine attack near King Island at 80,172

Japanese Ships
SS I-18

Allied Ships
xAP Queen Elizabeth



SS I-18 is sighted by xAP Queen Elizabeth...
SS I-18 launches 6 torpedoes...


I am certain that Mark's heart will skip a beat when the image of the QE pops up in the sub attack screen.[:D]

[seydlitz_slith]

I had a couple of good biplane-zero dogfights this turn....
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Morning Air attack on 14th Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 45 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 11



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 9
SB-2 x 16


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 4 destroyed, 2 damaged



Aircraft Attacking:
5 x SB-2 bombing from 15000 feet
Ground Attack: 6 x 100 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Tainan Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (11 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
11 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16000
Raid is overhead



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Morning Air attack on Okha , at 128,37

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid spotted at 32 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 10 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 13



Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 2
I-153 x 2
SB-2 x 3


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
SB-2: 2 destroyed



CAP engaged:
3rd Ku S-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 9 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000 , scrambling fighters to 10000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 6 minutes

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Afternoon Air attack on 61st Tank Division, at 108,27

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid spotted at 48 NM, estimated altitude 18,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5



Allied aircraft
I-153 x 2


No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
I-153: 1 destroyed



Aircraft Attacking:
2 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 16000 feet

CAP engaged:
28 SAD/51 IAP with I-153 (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 2 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 15000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 7 minutes

[seydlitz_slith]

Here are some snaps of the zero unit involved. This proves my guys are not newbies.

[seydlitz_slith]

pilots 1

[seydlitz_slith]

pilots-2

[seydlitz_slith]

Here are the aircraft losses for the turn.

[seydlitz_slith]

As mentioned earlier, the vehicle pool is empty but some vehicle devices still have tanks in the pool although the pools are draining fast.

[seydlitz_slith]

In ground combat this turn,

I captured Tacloban in the Philippines and also finished securing the NW corner of Borneo. The defeated allied units are retreating to Pontiak via the swamp.

At Johore Bhatu, I am pounding away at the gates to Singapore.

The task force carrying the first of the Luzon troops will enter the Sea of Japan next turn bound for Olga, and the KB just finished reprovisioning and is on the way back to Samurai Station to provide continued air support to the landings.

My land units on reserve in Voroshilov are down to 10-18 disruption. I will attack on the same turn that I land at Olga.

Here is the artillery duel....

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Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 4102 troops, 391 guns, 247 vehicles, Assault Value = 2185

Defending force 61107 troops, 1502 guns, 342 vehicles, Assault Value = 1565

Japanese ground losses:
Guns lost 6 (2 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
862 casualties reported
Squads: 20 destroyed, 38 disabled
Non Combat: 138 destroyed, 46 disabled
Engineers: 9 destroyed, 9 disabled
Guns lost 48 (31 destroyed, 17 disabled)
Vehicles lost 69 (63 destroyed, 6 disabled)


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Ground combat at Voroshilov (112,45)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 55127 troops, 1391 guns, 270 vehicles, Assault Value = 1497

Defending force 97650 troops, 1053 guns, 825 vehicles, Assault Value = 2185

Japanese ground losses:
231 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 25 destroyed, 30 disabled
Engineers: 2 destroyed, 3 disabled
Guns lost 78 (44 destroyed, 34 disabled)
Vehicles lost 90 (57 destroyed, 33 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 0 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Vehicles lost 3 (3 destroyed, 0 disabled)

[LoBaron]

Seydlitz i do not want to support turning this great AAR into a A2A discussion platform but since you comment on
it yourself id like to add my 2c´s.
 
just a few points id like to make:
1) the early Japanese kills reports were often reached by a combination of total air supremacy and overclaiming during the engagements
 
2) the Nates arent superior to the Soviet biplanes as it might seem. They were less durable, had a better roll rate but worse turn rate
    and had a laughable armament against a much sturdier I-15/I-153. Same goes in fact for the Oscars although its slightly better with the
    B/C versions.
 
3) A2A combat often involved a pilot being shot down "out of nowhere" where only E advantage and surprize counted. 5 Zeros attacking
    a bomber formation as in this example:
 
 Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5

Allied aircraft
I-153 x 9
DB-3M x 11
 
   could very easily lead to a Zero loss when you keep in mind that they have to tangle with the 153´s to get to the DB-3´s
   especially when outnumbered 2:1.
 
In most of the engagements where your losses where higher you were outnumbered at least nearly 2:1 on fighters and those engagements
are huge, so situational awareness is a factor as important as plane stats.
 
Good examples from your previous posts:
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 34
G3M2 Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 25


Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 29
I-153 x 48
 
-----------------------------------------
 
Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 14
Ki-27b Nate x 28

Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 20
I-153 x 26
 
------------------------------------------------
 
Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 10
B5N2 Kate x 102
D3A1 Val x 67

Allied aircraft
I-15bis x 28
I-16m24 x 63
Mig-3 x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
B5N2 Kate: 21 destroyed, 31 damaged
D3A1 Val: 8 destroyed, 24 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
I-15bis: 1 destroyed
I-16m24: 3 destroyed
SB-2: 1 destroyed on ground

-> one of the best examples: have you tried to do anything remotely similar in a air combat simulation (e.g. IL-2?)
fighterwise you are outnumbered 10:1 with 10 Zeros trying to protect a bomber formation probably spread over 10´s of
nautical miles, defending against 100(!) incoming fighters.
Counting in that your losses are probably 2(A2A):1(AAA) thats a loss rate i think youd have to calculate with.
 
I am not convinced that the combat resaults are far off to what would be real losses in such encounters.
 
 
Anyways no criticism here, thats just my opinion.
 
btw: is it possible for you to get units in the hex SW of Spassky? since its a wood hex defending it might be much
easier than the base hex and youd cut his supply off there too.
 
 

 

[seydlitz_slith]

Lobaron: Regarding the biplane issue. I agree that we should not turn this AAR into a protracted discussion of the air combat model. That said, this was also the only AAR where anyone is fighting these planes since they are Soviet and Elf mentioned that he would like to see some examples so I posted them here.

I think that the plane that I question the most is the I-153. It is the one that seems to perform far too well. The rest seem to be about right. The I-153 should not be performing nearly as well as it does in combat. Hopefully Elf will run some tests to make sure it is WAD.

For my part, I am through the worst of the air superiority and that problem is no longer a major concern for me. It just needs to be rechecked because someone else may want to fight the Soviets in another game and the performance of htis one air frame is simply far beyond real life performance.

Regarding the hex SW of Spassk....I have units enroute and should be able to contain the situation.

[Swenslim]

ORIGINAL: seydlitz

And finally R&D:

I think you are massively researching wrong plane ! Judy D4Y1-C is RECON plane...not dive bomber.

[seydlitz_slith]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim



I think you are massively researching wrong plane ! Judy D4Y1-C is RECON plane...not dive bomber.

Oh no! I hope this is not the case. If so I will need to change this.

Thanks for the heads up.

[Swenslim]

Yes, You neeed to research Judy D4Y1 with ntry date at 4/43.