Diplomacy: very frustrating

[bubicus]

I'm attempting FlaviusX's challenge (250 x 250, 24 players, 500 turns, play as Human Union) to me as detailed in the 'AAR: Humans' thread in the After Action Report subforum.

My strategy in succeeding with the challenge depends largely on successful diplomacy with AI empires. However, keeping empires happy is extremely difficult because there is very little documentation in the manual or in-game that describes how diplomacy works.

For example, I have found that by simply talking to them a lot, their friendliness goes down. They even get annoyed went asking how much they like different empires. A lot of the time, friendliness seems to drop quickly and there's absolutely no apparent reason why. For example, it's turn 73 of my challenge attempt and for some reason, The Fork has gone from Indifferent to Very Hostile in less than 20 turns. We have 58 turns left on a non-aggression agreement, we've never fought a battle, we've traded a couple of techs... yet they hate me. There's no apparent reason why.

Sudden hatred happens a lot. For the default 200-turn game, it's not a big deal because I just want to keep people off my back for a while, then crush them later. However, that won't work for a bigger, longer game because AI empires seem (but *I can't tell*!) to hate anybody who destroys, devastates, or subjugates other empires' planets. One can't easily play a 24-player map when 23 AI empires hate him or her.

In the six full games I've played so far, I've only been able to keep one empire (The Linkin) friendly the whole game, and that was by giving them tons of money. All other empires have become eventually become very hostile with me, including empires that I've helped out during a defensive alliance, even though I do nothing hostile toward them.

What I'm asking for is:

1) detailed documentation on how diplomacy works.
2) some kind of readout in the diplomacy UI that describes what has caused positive and negative reactions.
3) occasional messages from AI empires that tell the player whether relationships are improving or getting worse, and why.
4) the AI should stop offering techs without asking for something, because it wastes a player's time, and it probably drops friendliness when a player refuses the offer.
5) there should be a way for an empire to capitulate to another, so the empire could operate autonomously but work for the master, like in Civ4. It would allow races that have to deal with bureacracy a way to extend their empires without having to pay huge maintenance costs by owning and subjugating planets.

Otherwise, Armada 2526's diplomacy (and to a lesser amount, the trading model) is crippled. In my experience, it's easier to just get non-aggression agreements, then attack as soon as safely possible. It's not worth attempting to cultivate a long-term alliance.

I'm used to Master Of Magic's, Master Of Orion 2's, Alpha Centauri's, and Civ4's diplomacy systems. In all of those systems, it's obvious when and why other empires are angry or happy. In comparison, Armada 2526's diplomacy system makes me feel like I'm dealing with insane leaders...

[Flaviusx]

Make non aggression pacts with everybody. Don't bother with anything beyond that.

That's what I do in that game size. Run trade missions with everybody, that's what keeps 'em happy. They will think twice before breaking a nonaggression pact when there's a financial stake involved, and generally will renew the terms of a pact on expiration. 10 trade missions with a neighbor is a lot of duty revenue for them.

Well, don't trade with whoever you want to go to war with, but, yeah. Basically, your trade situation will determine your diplomatic one.

The Fork are still gonna kick your butt, tho. Unless you stop them early in their tracks. They are the evil twin brothers of the Hun Yoon.

Who pulling ahead on the VP count, out of curiosity?

Edit: also, in the larger maps I spend a long time developing before getting serious about war. 200 turns isn't at all unusual. I do not think early smash and grab works well in the larger games. You need to build a solid imperial foundation first. And let other wars get started and the hate flow elsewhere.

[bubicus]

I'm on turn 217, and I've crushed the Fork.  I am trying to attack the Walden, but I'm having trouble getting into contact with them, and it may take hundreds of turns for me to catch up even if I destroy all of their planets.  They already have 1.23 million points, and I only have 530,000 points (ranked #8).  My bureaucracy is not bothering me financially, due to my trade stations with other races, but even though I have ignored anything but ideal, habitable, and rich/very rich barren worlds, my -3 popularity penalty is causing lots of unrest.  I have had to build a bunch of entertainment centers to maintain control, but they're really eating into my economy as well.   (At least I get more points out of them!)  I may not be able to afford a war with the Walden.  I'm tempted to try the Flaviusx Challenge again, now that I've learned better play strategies.  I think I could win on the next attempt!  (I play "ironman" style, so I do not reload old saves.)

Flaviusx seems to be correct about diplomacy with non-aggression agreements and heavy trade.  I haven't had a problem renewing non-aggression agreements with any empire that I have at least four or five trade stations with.  However, races who refuse to allow trade stations still end up hating me, even if other trade (tech, money) is successful.

I've been experimenting with providing single-payment loans in return for regular-payment repayments.  I think it's improving diplomatic relations as well.  It may be another effective strategy for diplomacy.

[Flaviusx]

If you can win with the humans on this map, my hat's off to you. This is hard mode Armada.
 
As you can see, it's the buro races that are going to be the problem. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that the Walden are hands down the strongest race at this scale, but the Hun Yoon are close behind.
 
I'm curious if the buro penalty ever exceeds -3 for unhappiness, that's the most I've seen myself, and it's a real bear to manage. Does it cap at that or just get worse?

[Flaviusx]

Your best bet as the humans might in fact be to create coalitions against the buro races. Don't even try to take them out solo once they are well established. You do not need actual alliances to incite wars, by the way. Totally doable even with non aggression pacts.
 
 

[bubicus]

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you can win with the humans on this map, my hat's off to you. This is hard mode Armada.

As you can see, it's the buro races that are going to be the problem. As I've said elsewhere, I believe that the Walden are hands down the strongest race at this scale, but the Hun Yoon are close behind.

I'm curious if the buro penalty ever exceeds -3 for unhappiness, that's the most I've seen myself, and it's a real bear to manage. Does it cap at that or just get worse?

I think I've hurt the Waldens enough to catch up with them on the VP curve. Now I'm most worried about the Klurgu Trade Collective. Their dividends are starting to build up, and I haven't even found any of their planets yet, so I can't do anything to them. (I hope to eventually find the race that has the necessary map info for me...)

If I win, it will be because I started close enough to the Fork to crush them early, and because the Walden were also nearby. I still don't know if I will be able to get the Klurgu Trade Collective in time to catch up to them. The Hun Yoon aren't doing well right now (12th place) but I am keeping my eye on them.

I have taken 24 planets and bureaucracy is still at -3, so maybe I can deal with it after all if -3 is the maximum. It's turn 250, and I've taken three Walden planets now, and after building happiness centers on planets, I'm keeping unrest under control. I have enough trading stations, asteroid belts, and comets that I have income of 28,026/turn with expenses of 26,130/turn (8,281/turn to bureaucracy!!), for a profit of 1,896/turn.

My fleet has not lost yet, but it was hurt badly against the Walden because their sun beams annihilated my support ships (fleet carriers, mother ark, survey ship, missile cruisers). I should have kept those back. I'm glad I didn't have any transports in the main fleet! Their psychic powers made some of my dreadnaughts turn traitor, too. I was down to 2 dreadnaught IIs and a handful of corvettes and destroyers after taking the second planet, but I have since built my main fleet back up to 42 warships (plus 32 warships in a reserve fleet and 21 in the transport fleet) while declaring a short cease-fire. I don't think I'll invest in missile cruisers and carriers for a while... I almost decided to reload, but I decided that if I had played ironman this long, I might as well keep going!

[Flaviusx]

Yes, that sounds about right. I had a Klurgu game at the -3 buro penalty a while back with a couple of dozen planets and this was costing me over 6000/turn in additional overhead. Was trying to upload a zip file for this on the forums, in fact, to show how buro impacts the game at the larger scale, but the Matrix forums wouldn't let me.
 
The Klurgu Trade Collective sounds like an interesting race to play, I've been considering them myself for a larger map. I kind of like the dividend VP races. (Have had some success with the Cryokon in the past on larger maps.)

[Grotius]

I didn't realize the AI can break non-aggression pacts. They can? What's the point of a non-aggression pact if you can commit aggression? I suppose there's some diplomatic penalty?

Also, I don't understand the three icons above the alien in the diplomacy screen. The middle one seems to indicate one aspect of our current relationship. What do the two on the left and right represent? Yes, I can mouseover them, but the mouseover doesn't explain fully what is meant.

[Iceman]

The ones on the right indicate how much they like you. If they don't like you, they'll require a much bigger profit in the deal than you get.
The ones on the left are about how much they trust you to meet your obligations. If they don't trust you, they'll value payments over time very low, and won't make defensive alliances etc.

[Grotius]

Thanks!

So: if I make a non-aggression pact with a neighbor, the neighbor might violate it? I should still defend that border?

[martok]

You shouldn't need to worry overly much about your border while an NA pact is in effect; the AI is pretty good when it comes to honoring treaties. However, they may pounce quickly if/when a treaty expires, so you don't want to completely let down your guard.

[bubicus]

By turn 292, I had taken five more Walden planets, increasing my colony count to 30.  On turn 293, I started seeing more rioting messages.  I checked the popularity value for one of the rioting planets...

AAAAAAAAAARGGGGH!!!!! Bureaucracy does hit -4!!!! 

I don't want to play anymore because -4 bureaucracy means that I have to spend a few dozen turns improving happiness, which is really boring.

I claim victory, though!  Now that I've taken the Waldens' best planets, my rate of VP gain is higher than anyone else's.  I've moved from #8 to #6 in the past ten turns.  I am currently projected to be at #2 at turn 500 (losing by only 55,777 points), but if I annihilate the Klurgu Trade Collective, I would win.

So, I give up on the FlaviusX challenge... I don't want to bother playing through 199 more turns.  I'm sick of playing as the humans. :-p   If I wasn't playing Ironman, I would load a save from when I had 29 planets and then just start exterminating the entire galaxy, never colonizing another planet again.  I have the largest military divided into two strong fleets, yet I still make enough profit to make planets happier with terraforming, weather control, and happiness centers.   I just don't want to spend the time...

I will post an After Action Report in the AAR room.

[Anonymous]

[Deleted by Admins]

[facundo_eche]

ways to make money through diplomacy:
1 - sell technology - only that one that won´t be turn against you (ships, comunication, shields, etc). example: if you won´t be using plagues, there is no harm to you if you share antiplague tech.
2 - sell system - once you already found colonies in let say 25-30% of the systems, you could sell any of your colonies for about 15.000 - 40.000 each.

[Iceman]

Not really sure what's the relevancy of this in here, but if you're playing for VPs, you may want to be careful about who you trade techs and systems with.