Hunting the Hibiki: Q-Ball (Allies) v Cuttlefish (Japan)

[Q-Ball]

Regarding supply problems for FORAGER, I did mean supply to the front; India is well supplied. It has piles of it in fact, as well as plenty of good airbases and AV support. NE India is a great platform for an aerial campaign.

The problem is I don't know how easy or hard it will be to pull supplies into Burma, as there are no trails or roads, just jungle. So far it doesn't seem to be a problem, but just in case, an airstrip at Warazup can't hurt. And if it does pull supplies easily, I will probably keep the base and build forts there.

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

I undertstand Bluebook's point and agree this wouldn't have happened in real war, but this isn't the real war and the Allies have far less knowledge about enemy carrier dispositions than they did in the real war.  If Q-Ball was getting Magic and other intel that the KB was stationed at point X, he might not have to employ this tactic (the same tactic I often use in my own PBEM games).  The game has a great and fun "Sig Int" feature, but it almost never provides information about the KB.  Instead you get lots of "heavy volume of radio traffic at Ponape" and "Paramushiro Fortress at Paramushiro"  intel.

In a way AE is a game of chess on a massive scale, and this (in my book) is a legitimate move.

Hear, hear! A good point. It drives me crazy that signet never reveals the location of major captial ships. It is not gamey at all. There are many clues for an astute Japanese player to read that can give it away. Older ships, size of forces and so on. It is a risk that can fail big time. So, it is not gamey.

Besides, it is going to make for an interesting read......[;)]

[crsutton]

ORIGINAL: Astarix

Q-Ball,

Actually you might not find supply in the Burma-India border to be as troublesome as you seem to suppose here. Now I have to preface this, by indicating that most of my experience is in playing against the AI and my son, so I don't have a lot of experience in PBEM. However, I've found that the Allies have certain advantages in this theatre that might not be obvious at first.

Mainly, you have to remember that India generates a large surplus of supply and you have the ability to literally "pour" millions of additional tons of supplies into India from Capetown and the Eastern U.S. via convoy. In my most advanced game against the AI, I'm into 1943 and supply has not been an issue in Burma for the allies. At this point in the game I am well advanced in my effort to liberate Burma from the clutches of the dastardly AI. I am conducting my counteroffensive exclusively via land.

Anyway, to cut to the point here, simply ship a large amount of supply to the ports at Karachi, Bombay and Cochin, then "draw" the supplies over to the Burmese border. If you look at the map the distance from the line of Ledo, Kohima, Imphal, Kalemyo and Akyab to the Burmese towns of Mitkiyna, Lashio, Mandalay and the Burmese Coast road along the Bay of Bengal, is not so significant that supplies won't move across. It does require that you hit one of these cities with such overwhelming force that you take it quickly as the combat in the Jungle and Jungle mt. can be particularly bloody, but once you have one of the cities, you can "draw" the supply across the border in sufficient quantity to keep an offensive going. The forces in India are more than sufficient to start and sustain an offensive in late '42, especially if you keep the AIF in India and use one of the British Divisions and the AIF as shock troops to dislodge the Japanese from your target. You should easily have more Armor and Artillary than your Japanese opponent, at least in terms of what they start with in this region and what arrives here, unless they have shipped huge amounts of those forces into the zone.

You also have the advantage in this theatre of a much larger and generally at least qualitatively equal air force. It also doesn't take much effort to ship in additional bombers from ConUS, you don't even need to put the planes on hulls, you can simply strategically redeploy them to Cape Town from the Eastern U.S. and they show up in 30-40 days. You should have a fairly large number of transports, the Chindit Brigades are Airborne and you will be getting a British Airborne Brigade in November or December that will build up to full strength fairly quickly.

Lastly, depending on how the war in China goes, you could probably assign the Chinese Corps that is garrisoning the Poashan/Kunming region to hit Lashio. Once that Corps gets exposed to the veritable Ocean of supplies that allies have, it fills out rather rapidly. At full strength its worth about 750AV all by itself.

The real problem with supply in Burma, is that Burma itself only generates enough supply to "maintain" the Burma Corps that starts the game there. But if you draw supplies in from India, you can pretty much do whatever you want. The rainy season obviously slows down movement and effects combat, but it doesn't generally tend to affect supply.

The key is getting a City inside Burma quickly enough.

Jason

My understanding is that you are no longer able to do this post patch. Supply should flow from India to Burma at a much slower rate now. This campaign might be a good test. The only reason the Allies were able to conduct an offensive in North Burma was due to the air superiorty and the abilty to transport large amounts of supply in by air. They just did not have the transport to do it in 42-or 43.

[Smeulders]

The supply pull is complicated a bit by the new overland supply rules. Over on the wiki (http://hc-strategy.com/ae/wiki/index.php?title=Overland_Supply_Movement) there is a list with the caps for bases in Burma (India will be added later). Note that as the dot bases don't have any forts, AF or port, they won't pull supplies at all in the beginning. I'm wondering how that works, your units might still pull from bases in India, but building anything there would be hard. Another thing to take into consideration is the regularity of overland supply. The multiple jungle hexes will make sure you don't transport supplies every day, so the low max supply per day is further hurt by not transporting supplies every day. Air supply is going to be a necessity I think (but how to get it there when you don't have airbases yet ?)

[Astarix]

ORIGINAL: crsutton

ORIGINAL: Astarix

Q-Ball,

Actually you might not find supply in the Burma-India border to be as troublesome as you seem to suppose here. Now I have to preface this, by indicating that most of my experience is in playing against the AI and my son, so I don't have a lot of experience in PBEM. However, I've found that the Allies have certain advantages in this theatre that might not be obvious at first.

Mainly, you have to remember that India generates a large surplus of supply and you have the ability to literally "pour" millions of additional tons of supplies into India from Capetown and the Eastern U.S. via convoy. In my most advanced game against the AI, I'm into 1943 and supply has not been an issue in Burma for the allies. At this point in the game I am well advanced in my effort to liberate Burma from the clutches of the dastardly AI. I am conducting my counteroffensive exclusively via land.

Anyway, to cut to the point here, simply ship a large amount of supply to the ports at Karachi, Bombay and Cochin, then "draw" the supplies over to the Burmese border. If you look at the map the distance from the line of Ledo, Kohima, Imphal, Kalemyo and Akyab to the Burmese towns of Mitkiyna, Lashio, Mandalay and the Burmese Coast road along the Bay of Bengal, is not so significant that supplies won't move across. It does require that you hit one of these cities with such overwhelming force that you take it quickly as the combat in the Jungle and Jungle mt. can be particularly bloody, but once you have one of the cities, you can "draw" the supply across the border in sufficient quantity to keep an offensive going. The forces in India are more than sufficient to start and sustain an offensive in late '42, especially if you keep the AIF in India and use one of the British Divisions and the AIF as shock troops to dislodge the Japanese from your target. You should easily have more Armor and Artillary than your Japanese opponent, at least in terms of what they start with in this region and what arrives here, unless they have shipped huge amounts of those forces into the zone.

You also have the advantage in this theatre of a much larger and generally at least qualitatively equal air force. It also doesn't take much effort to ship in additional bombers from ConUS, you don't even need to put the planes on hulls, you can simply strategically redeploy them to Cape Town from the Eastern U.S. and they show up in 30-40 days. You should have a fairly large number of transports, the Chindit Brigades are Airborne and you will be getting a British Airborne Brigade in November or December that will build up to full strength fairly quickly.

Lastly, depending on how the war in China goes, you could probably assign the Chinese Corps that is garrisoning the Poashan/Kunming region to hit Lashio. Once that Corps gets exposed to the veritable Ocean of supplies that allies have, it fills out rather rapidly. At full strength its worth about 750AV all by itself.

The real problem with supply in Burma, is that Burma itself only generates enough supply to "maintain" the Burma Corps that starts the game there. But if you draw supplies in from India, you can pretty much do whatever you want. The rainy season obviously slows down movement and effects combat, but it doesn't generally tend to affect supply.

The key is getting a City inside Burma quickly enough.

Jason

My understanding is that you are no longer able to do this post patch. Supply should flow from India to Burma at a much slower rate now. This campaign might be a good test. The only reason the Allies were able to conduct an offensive in North Burma was due to the air superiority and the ability to transport large amounts of supply in by air. They just did not have the transport to do it in 42-or 43.

I patched my game as of January 28th 1943. As of February 1st 1943 I noticed I was in need of more supplies in Burma to maintain my offensive against Rangoon. From Feb 1st-Feb 3rd I 'drew' supplies to Eastern India,such that I had 190k at Calcutta and about another 350k split between the various cities on the border. I had about another 1 million supplies split between Bombay, Karachi, Cochin, Madras, etc. During the turns of FEB 4th and 5th 1943, I activated the draw supplies buttons throughout Burma and I drew about 150k of supplies into Burma over 2 days. My supply stockpile went from about 100k to around 250kish throughout Burma just doing rough math. Interestingly enough, it appears a large amount of the supply stockpile in Western India, subsequently shifted to Eastern India over these same 2 days. Supplies at those ports are down to about 125k combined, and I would estimate that they stood at roughly 150k in each port. My Eastern India supplies also went up fairly significantly, especially at the well built up bases such as Calcutta, Dacca, Kohima and Ledo.

In total it appears that about 800k moved from West to East and about 150k moved across the jungles and mountains from East India into Burma. I also control the coastal trail from Akyab down to Bussien. I don't know if that helped any. Also there is only a 2 hex difference from Kalemyo and the Central Burma Railroad and between Ledo-Wazarup is 2 jungle hexes. You can draw quite a bit of supply into Kalemyo and Akyab and Ledo with the draw supply button over time. I pretty much never turn it off in those 3 cities to maintain a large stockpile on the Burmese border. I also maxed out Miyitkina's airfield as well as the one at Warazup.

Now having said all of that, It does look like the supply draw is slower than it was pre-patch, but if I can move 100k - 200k a week into Burma, it should be enough to keep up the offensive. I'm also still shipping about 150k-250k of supplies into the Indian ports per week. Once I recapture the Isthmus of Kra and take Bangkok I will begin shipping directly into Rangoon.

Anyway that is what I've noticed in this particular game vs. the AI.

[Swenslim]

To gain success in Burma you will have to gain air superiority over the battle field, without it he will trash and disrupt your slowly advancing troops with Sally's and Lily's

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

To gain success in Burma you will have to gain air superiority over the battle field, without it he will trash and disrupt your slowly advancing troops with Sally's and Lily's

This is true, but I think I hold the upper hand here. First, I almost certainly have more planes; I have transferred some USAAF fighter and bomber units here. If he does bring alot of airpower, that meets my strategic objective, which is to draw Japanese strength away from REPRISAL, which is my real offensive in 1942.

I think it will be me raining death on the Japanese troops, but we'll see.

[Swenslim]

Japan player has a lot of free air units after taking Java. He can have hole 3 and 5 air division's with all their units and maybe 2-3 fighter units from Manchuko. Thats a lot  IJA fighters and bombers - maybe 250-300 fighters and around same number of bombers. If he invested in R&D of Tojo's and Tonys he probably will have few units of them in august-september.

For South seas he has IJN planes and CV's. For HI he has home defence units, in second half of 1942 it meens bunch of fighters and Bettys/Nells.

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Swenslim

To gain success in Burma you will have to gain air superiority over the battle field, without it he will trash and disrupt your slowly advancing troops with Sally's and Lily's

This is true, but I think I hold the upper hand here. First, I almost certainly have more planes; I have transferred some USAAF fighter and bomber units here. If he does bring alot of airpower, that meets my strategic objective, which is to draw Japanese strength away from REPRISAL, which is my real offensive in 1942.

I think it will be me raining death on the Japanese troops, but we'll see.

I'm in November '42 and the Allies are unable to hold their own in the air war in Burma/India. I have tons of bombers and a healthy number of fighters, but the Japanese have more and keep wearing me down through the attrition war. This may be due to my own faults (perhaps I'm not managing my fighters well or perhaps I havent' done as good a job training pilots), but to this point I feel like the Japanese are still in control.

[tuga555]

Hi all
I'm a long time lurker in these forums and a big Fan of the AARs specially this one.
They taught me much about the game. So my thanks to you all
Now my two cents, I’m playing against the AI and I managed to hold Pegu against it and I’m actually thinking of counter attack (its July/42). My problem is that with the new beta patch supply would not move. I had over 150k in Rangoon and until I dropped some supply in pegu by ship, the level the level kept dropping and I could not counterattack.
I don’t know if it’s an effect of the monsoon or my clumsiness. But I was reading you guys and I thought that I had lots and lots of supply in Rangoon but some of my other bases in Burma were completely dry with the red !. Does anyone have any experience with it? It would be bad if Q-Ball attack and the supplies wouldn’t move.

[Q-Ball]

Good thoughts guys on Airpower. And you might be right; it's possible that he can commit enough assets to get back control of the air. In fact the assets are at his disposal.

Refer back to my original objectives for FORAGER. The main objective is strategic, not tactical. If Cuttlefish commits enough airpower to win the tactical air battle, I win the strategic battle. I WANT the IJA to throw the kitchen sink at Burma. Because that will mean that fewer planes over REPRISAL, which figures to be a bloodbath all around, becuase both of us have lost so few ships and planes.

If I get ashore on Flores, Soemba, and Timor as planned, I will build a festering cauldron into which the Japanese will have to pour planes, pilots, and ships to keep me at bay. Cuttlefish will have no choice but to throw everything at this, because it is uncomfortably close to the Oil. I will suffer huge losses, but so will the Japanese. I will replace my losses, he won't. Any forward progress will threaten the Oil. Cut off the Oil from Japan, and the game is over. Burma is ultimately just a sideshow to all of this. So is Noumea, Central Pacific, and everything else for that matter.

Ultimately, the Allies have only 2 grand strategic objectives. Just 2!

1. Reduce/Destroy Japanese ability to ship OIL/Fuel to Home Islands, through capture/interdiction of Oil and Fuel facilities, or sinking of tankers
2. Open a strategic bombing campaign on Japan. This means capturing a suitable bombing platform within range of Japan, and being able to supply and protect it.

That's pretty much it for grand objectives. REPRISAL supports #1.

[british exil]

Ultimately, the Allies have only 2 grand strategic objectives. Just 2!

1. Reduce/Destroy Japanese ability to ship OIL/Fuel to Home Islands, through capture/interdiction of Oil and Fuel facilities, or sinking of tankers
2. Open a strategic bombing campaign on Japan. This means capturing a suitable bombing platform within range of Japan, and being able to supply and protect it.

That's pretty much it for grand objectives. REPRISAL supports #1.

I've just added the game to my christmas wish list.
If I'd have known the game was so simple I wouldn't have wished for it. Dreading the day I have to read the manual and understand it all.
At least the AAR's give some insight what to do and not to do. Keep up the good work.

[khyberbill]

I'm in November '42 and the Allies are unable to hold their own in the air war in Burma/India.

I had trouble for a long time as well. Finally, after the monsoon broke, I was able to get control in November 42 through a combination of bombing of airfields with B17/24/25/26s and Wellingtons at 10k and sweeps with Hurricanes at high altitudes. Bombing raids were sometimes escorted with P40E's. I say sometimes, because escorts seems to be hit or miss. Results were about 20 - 40 planes destroyed on the ground per day and both foes moved their airbases away from range of my Hurricanes. I dont have any combat reports left from those battles the below is a recent attack on Darwin. It took only two days of attacks to clear the airfield of planes. He had a mixture of Tojos and Zeros in Darwin and now will find it difficult to keep over 40 units supplied.

Morning Air attack on Darwin , at 76,124

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 15,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
no flights


Allied aircraft
B-25C Mitchell x 15
Mitchell II x 12
B-17E Fortress x 23
B-17F Fortress x 6
B-24D Liberator x 13
B-25C Mitchell x 33
B-26 Marauder x 11
B-26B Marauder x 3


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed on ground
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 8 destroyed on ground
Ki-46-II Dinah: 5 destroyed on ground
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed on ground

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 5 damaged
B-17F Fortress: 2 damaged
B-24D Liberator: 1 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 6 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
10 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled

[Q-Ball]

Combat Report, August 5 to 18th, 1942

My AAR was in danger of falling to Page 2! I have to update it a bit more often.

The last 2 weeks of game time have featured little action until recently. China has been quiet, and once I stopped the air war over Burma, it's been quiet there. The only action has been via submarine, where we have sunk a DD, a TK, and a couple AKs over the last 2 weeks. The war is about to change though, because of what happened on the 18th.

Fall of Noumea: The 17,000 Allied defenders at Noumea surrendered on August 18th. Units that surrendered included 41st Division (though I saved a cadre to rebuild it), Lark Force Bn, 1 Tank Bn, 1 Art Bn, 1 Base Force, and that French Unit. The 41st will fight another day, but it will take awhile to rebuild.

What finally tipped the scales was more Japanese reinforcements. Another division landed at Koumac and marched overland, which tipped the scales. The other thing were large bombardments by IJN BBs, including Yamato. I had considered an intervention, but Cuttlefish has consistently kept Kido Butai loitering around New Caledonia, which means any reinforcement/rescue would have meant a CV battle.

I am not unhappy with the result of this seige. It bought us 2 1/2 months of time, and kept KB tethered to Noumea. It pretty much halted offensive action until Noumea could be taken. In the meantime, Suva and Pago Pago are pretty much impregnible forces, such that Cuttlefish would be doing me a favor by attempting a landing.

What Next?: That's the big question. I don't know what the Japanese plans are now. Cuttlefish has 4 divisions on New Caledonia, but I don't think he has too many viable places right there to go. I have alot of planes in the Suva/Tonga region, including Divebombers, which figure to make any landing expensive.

KB and surface ships were seen moving off to the Northwest; I think a period of refit is probably in order for Kido Butai, given that it's been at sea constantly for 3 months. The last couple turns KB was loitering off Suva, just out of P-40 range, or I would have taken a shot with some DBs.

REPRISAL: In a separate note, I'll detail plans for REPRISAL, the most important Allied operation of 1942.

[Q-Ball]

OPERATION REPRISAL: The Allies Strike Back!

Gentlemen:

We have previously reviewed OPERATION FORAGER, the Fall 1942 British offensive into Burma. It is time, now that troops are being prepped, to review our plans for REPRISAL, the move into the Southern DEI.

Overall Plan: Our objective is to establish several airbases in the Southern DEI. We expect an extremely strong Japanese response, so landing on several places is necessary. Even if a counter-landing takes out one of our airbases, we will still have plenty to establish air control over the region, or at least to start bleeding the Japanese.

D-Day will be between 10/1/42 and 11/1/42, depending on the Japanese defenses. I am focusing on bases with ports, that can be built to large airbases. The primary landing will be at Koepang, where I expect the most resistance; I have detailed 3 divisions for this landing, which might be overkill, but better safe than sorry. We need Koepang to establish at least 1 instant airbase in the region.

Other troops will land on Soemba, Maumere, Lomblen; I expect these bases to be lightly defended or not defended at all. I need enough ground troops though to guard against counterattack. We wil land at least 12-15 engineering units total, to quickly build up bases, and get air units in play.

Total Forces: We are allocating alot of air assets, as well as most of our naval assets.

AIR: All 7 available Allied CVs will be in support (the USN CVs, plus Illustrious). We will have Hermes and at least 1 USN CVE in support as well.

Land Based Air will include P-38s and many 4Es; we have 6 DB units, plus a Marine TB unit, and more Wildcats. An RAF Albacore unit is also available. We will be more secure once we can turn this area into an anti-shipping platform.

SURFACE SHIPS: We have numerous Allied cruisers, most of the USN and RN cruisers. We have 6 RN BBs (basically all of them, save PoW), and 5 USN BBs are headed here to also support.

Japanese Defenses: We have been casually reconning Timor and the area of our attack. As you can see from the map, some places aren't even Japanese yet, so we do not expect heavy resistance there. Recon reports 3 units at Koepang; at least 1 has to be a base force, and I don't think there is a division there. Dili and Lautem are occupied by one unit apiece. Overall, defenses appear very light. If it stays that way, I may jump early.

I do expect, however, an extremely strong Japanese response. Cuttlefish has almost all his elite pilots, as he has lost only 120 Zeros in A2A since the start of the war. The IJN surface fleet, save a couple CLs, is intact. I expect that about 4-6 days after landing, the entire IJN will show up to contest.

If Kido Butai shows, and we have already captured Koepang, we will choose to fight. It will be late 1942 at that point, so reinforcements are on the horizon. Our CVs are fully upgraded, with TBMs and updated AA. The escorts have high AA values. We can provide additional support from LBA. All of these make a combat desirable.

If IJN BBs show, we will also fight. I expect to tactically lose a BB matchup, but I think we will come out ahead strategically. I plan to use the RN BBs first, because they are better night fighters and due to withdraw anyway. The Allies have more BBs coming in 1943, and the Japanese do not beyond Musashi.

Overall, I expect there to be much blood. As long as it is mutual bloodshed, that will benefit the Allies.

Logistics: The biggest problem right now is a lack of fuel. I have several tanker convoys going to/from Cape Town to get fuel. At present, I have 80,000 fuel at Port Hedland, and another 100,000 at Perth. I would like more in both places before starting, because with all those BBs and other ships I will burn a huge amount of fuel. I want to have 200,000 fuel stockpiled at Perth to get started. We're fine in supplies, with big piles at most bases along the Australian coast.

The other problem is transport shipping. I have detailed alot of troops to this, over 6 divisions equivalent, plus engineering troops. I am accumulating APs at Perth, but this is also taking some time. I anticipate needing at least 100 APs and 50 AKs before launching the invasion.

Map: See below for a map of the area. The thing I like most about a move here is that it really opens alot of possibilities once we get established. The Allies can advance over several different axis of attack (toward Java, Celebes, Ambon, etc), and it's tough for the Japanese to cover all of them. Yet, an advance in ANY of those directions would be bad for Japan. The possibilities are endless; the biggest challenge will be keeping this offensive fueled.

[ny59giants]

Do you have sufficient aviation support and construction engineers to unload at Derby and/or Broome to build those bases up?? They would help you get LBA to and from the battlefield for any fighters with short legs. 

[witpqs]

Wow! Are the landings going to be simultaneous? How long do you expect it will take before you are ready to go?

Q-Ball going for the kill, calls "8-ball in the corner pocket!"

[Q-Ball]

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Do you have sufficient aviation support and construction engineers to unload at Derby and/or Broome to build those bases up?? They would help you get LBA to and from the battlefield for any fighters with short legs. 

I have detailed 4 Australian Base Forces for this. I sent 2 of the big RAF Base Force units from India: The Brits have more than enough AV support, and have some to spare.

I have snuck in 2 units to Broome, and 1 more is on the way. I don't want to put more in, because CF might smell something is up if he observes a big buildup at Broome and Derby. He knows about Port Hedland, but that could be considered defensive (which it was initially).

[ComradeP]

Another question: what would the Japanese player realistically need to be able to stop such an invasion? Is that even possible considering what you're throwing at him?

It's still early in the war, and if this works you're pretty close to putting a serious dent in the amount of oil/fuel/resources he can extract from the DEI. This early in the war, such a blow could be devastating, especially if the IJN loses modern capital ships and carriers.

[Swenslim]

That is why I recommend for all Japan players not to go farther than Solomons. With 4 divisions at Noumea it meen he has almost no troops in the rear area. Maybe 1 - 2 divisipns at Java and 1-2 at Marians and Truk. A