Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results

[Oddball_France]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm not seeing a problem.  Jap commits it's entire national force against Singapore in a surprise attack.  Why doesn't that work?  It's PH only smaller.  

In any case, it is just a trade-off and one that I think is entirely within the realm of options of the JAP player for day 1.  You potentially get the SRA secured about 1 month earlier, BUT you let the USN off the hook entirely.  That means the Allies counter-offensive can start almost one year earlier.  I don't see this as a winning strategy for the JAP player, but I guess we can watch an AAR play out and see how it works.  Be interesting to watch.  I think this is what AE is about, neh?

What if i do the same with the KB at Pearl ? I just tried like that "for fun", as said, but i think it could be done without the KB, with good air cover from Saigon, and so one..
What would you say in that case ? not sure you would like that, playing on allied side :/

[WITPPL]

Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.

[Bluebook]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Question:

Results were funny but the important question for me is:

What the heck should i do now?

Ive lost WEEKS of family life preparing whole operation. Not only it is fully disclosed but I am a sitting duck.
What the hell am I about to do with this damn situation?

Should I compose my TFs by my best and invade again (probably with similiart results)?
Maybe just give up a game or what?

How much loses will look GOOD?

I am really puzzled here!

[:@]

Actually I have thought about it and I think we should go back to the game as it was and forget the "go back in time"-thing.

I dont mind losing Pearl if that is what happens. It will just be a longer way for me to Tokyo, but the game will be just as fun anyway. So the CD-routines does not really work and that meant a very easy landing at Pearl, I can live with that. I will get enough reinforcements in the future anyway.

And, like you say, what are you supposed to do? You are super-committed to the Pearl invasion with 10 divisions in the centpac. Not your fault that the game cant handle that invasion properly.

Also, it will be interesting to see what happens. So I think we should just continue our game from where we were.

[PaxMondo]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.

Ahhh, sorry. I thought JWilkerson already addressed that above ... sounds like any invasion force of greater than say about 200 ships (maybe 100?. maybe 300? not clear yet) is outside of the game engine design parameters. I've already adjusted my house rules that no "monster" invasion forces after Dec 10. We are still dickering on what constitutes "monster" but taking direction from above.

[herwin]

Oopsie... [:D]

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.

Ahhh, sorry. I thought JWilkerson already addressed that above ... sounds like any invasion force of greater than say about 200 ships (maybe 100?. maybe 300? not clear yet) is outside of the game engine design parameters. I've already adjusted my house rules that no "monster" invasion forces after Dec 10. We are still dickering on what constitutes "monster" but taking direction from above.

I suspect some of the Allied invasions later in the war are larger than the threshold, so this won't work. Take the coastal defence artillery available, multiply it by 4 to get the equivalent ships guns, and see whether the landing force has firepower superiority. If it has FP Sup, it wins the firepower duel, which allows the LF to land reasonably unmolested and you can continue with the current game engine. If it doesn't have FP Sup, take the expected losses due to unsuppressed anti-boat guns during the 3-hour beach approach and have the remnants assault the relatively intact beach defences. If the LF can't overwhelm the beach defences, it dies on the beach. If it does overwhelm the defences, it has a beachhead, but its disruption level should be on the order of 90%. It can't take a base on the turn it lands unless it was unmolested.

[Oddball_France]

I think that we should roughly go with a simple rule as a basis, concerning disruption at landing. (don't know about fatigue ? half the disrupt ?)

before any more disruption caused by defensers, units should have something like (50-(preparation/2)) disruption added.

So if a unit isn't prepared at all (0), her disruption goes up by 50.
If it's 50% prepared, it's disrpution ups by 25, and
if it's fully prepared, it stays as it was before landing.

Then only it suffers (or not) more disruption cause of defensers. That one is harder to calculate, i admit

for sure, the values are quite raw and just examples. but that's how i see the thing.
it still won't be perfect but it's a starting point.

[rtrapasso]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Question:

Results were funny but the important question for me is:

What the heck should i do now?

Ive lost WEEKS of family life preparing whole operation. Not only it is fully disclosed but I am a sitting duck.
What the hell am I about to do with this damn situation?

Should I compose my TFs by my best and invade again (probably with similiart results)?
Maybe just give up a game or what?

How much loses will look GOOD?

I am really puzzled here!

[:@]

People are starting to post results similar to yours which seem to come from putting bunch of cheap and rather unsinkable (for 12 hours, anyway) escorts in the invading fleet... a quick fix would seem to repeat the invasion after removing the small escorts.

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

We have already turned back time.

Personally, I wish you'd go to your sent mail and proceed from a few days post invasion. Sounds like you have provided the devs something to look at already in regards to the CD routine, but it would be interesting now to see if a) can you actually take PH and b) if you do, what impact does it have in later years. We may find that while game has certain issues that allow it, the benefits do not outway the issues caused in later game.

[MorningDew]

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

Actually I have thought about it and I think we should go back to the game as it was and forget the "go back in time"-thing.

I dont mind losing Pearl if that is what happens. It will just be a longer way for me to Tokyo, but the game will be just as fun anyway. So the CD-routines does not really work and that meant a very easy landing at Pearl, I can live with that. I will get enough reinforcements in the future anyway.

And, like you say, what are you supposed to do? You are super-committed to the Pearl invasion with 10 divisions in the centpac. Not your fault that the game cant handle that invasion properly.

Also, it will be interesting to see what happens. So I think we should just continue our game from where we were.

LOL...I wish I had read this before I posted:) I'm always a few posts behind

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.

Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.

good example and it further proves that the CD routine is surely not working to bring up realistic or plausible results. And I doubt that the devs think the results would be ok.

[castor troy]

So all those results showed so far, you attack PH, Bataan or Singapore wihtout taking considerable losses to your ships and even worse, the only "losses" during the landings to the troops are from accidents. lol, what an obviously not working system.

[John Lansford]

So would it be considered "gamey" to put together a massive invasion fleet and take Bataan and Singapore on December 8?  Or will someone finally acknowledge that the CD/invasion routines aren't working as intended?

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

So would it be considered "gamey" to put together a massive invasion fleet and take Bataan and Singapore on December 8?  Or will someone finally acknowledge that the CD/invasion routines aren't working as intended?

I'll admit it. It's totally FUBAR'ed! Unfortunately I'm not among those who can do anything to correct it. [:(]

[WITPPL]

OK,

Blue has proposed to continiue with an invasion so after turning back time for 2 days we have turned it back and forth again.

We continiue original path.
I will open an AAR of this.

[Drambuie]

Hmm this is one case where I think i'm glad I'm playing the AI! [;)]

The thought of a game where you can't rely on anywhere - including the major bases etc- being relatively secure from an amphib operation is not something I'd relish much.

Actually what stops the AI from trying this? Is it hard coded routines of invasion priorities and targets or does it assess targets based on their AV or defense values (especially later in the game)and this calculates that CD defenses etc are too tough to attack?

[WITPPL]

AAR started
"Pearl and Beyond"

R

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: Drambuie

Hmm this is one case where I think i'm glad I'm playing the AI! [;)]

The thought of a game where you can't rely on anywhere - including the major bases etc- being relatively secure from an amphib operation is not something I'd relish much.

Actually what stops the AI from trying this? Is it hard coded routines of invasion priorities and targets or does it assess targets based on their AV or defense values (especially later in the game)and this calculates that CD defenses etc are too tough to attack?

Unless Japan wins by taking Pearl, all the allied play has to do now is cut the Japanese supply line to Pearl and it's a slow death!

You would have to create an AI script(s) to get the AI to do this.

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.

Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.

As a Japanese player this thread is definately food for thought. I have to admit that I would never have considered sending a large TF immediately to Bataan.

btw Grunt, if you do not mind my asking, who is your Avatar a sketch of ?

[stuman]

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

So would it be considered "gamey" to put together a massive invasion fleet and take Bataan and Singapore on December 8?  Or will someone finally acknowledge that the CD/invasion routines aren't working as intended?

Well it is not gamey when I do it to my brother in a PBEM we are about to start, but right after that I think it is ridiculous !

[;)]