Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits

[sfbaytf]

My first try at Tarawa was a real clusterf***. I ended up re-embarking the invasion force and leaving it to my opponent. The second attempt aroung the Kwajeleans went better. At least I took the place, but having overstacked units stay isn't a good thing and getting them back onto transports quickly hasn't been easy.

Mabye by the third or 4th try I'll get it down.

There is definately an artform to invading small islands. Other places where you don't have to worry about stacking limits allows for greater lattitude.

I love the APA's I can't recall if they were present in stock WitP.

[Treznor]

Yes, island limitations does pose a problem for me to, I have yet to figure out how the trick, is there a way to know how many men are in a unit or does the 6000 mean something else?

[John Lansford]

The AI took Canton from me the 2nd time by invading with a full division; 12,000 men vs 4500 defenders.  Once they took the island, though, I kept intercepting any supply/evacuation TF's for over a month before they finally managed to get most of them back out.

[freeboy]

I pretty much ignore teh 6k figure, just a penalty, it is alot worse to land your troops and have them all die due to not enough , especially as the allies as you have ten of everything you need.. lots and lots of supplies etc plus troops!
So, take your 6k penalty

[sfbaytf]

I agree and disagree with ignoring the limits. I screwed up Tarawa because I stupidly assumed it was a small atoll and landed with too few troops. I didn't make that mistake with the next assault on an atoll. The problem in my limited experience is if you go in with an overstacked assault you need to have a ready plan and force to get them off asap. Otherwise you'll tie down a large number of troops doing nothing and losing effectiveness. Sooner or later you're going to need to take them off the atoll and ship them back to a place where they can recuperate. The longer they remain in an overstacked situation the more disruption they'll suffer.

I'm not sure, but it also appeard that leaving too many troops on an atoll over the stacking limits eats supplies like crazy in addition to causing a large disruption penalty. The whole objective in capturing an atoll is to operate airplanes and perhaps as a port and having too many troops and then trying to land a base force and naval support unit onto an already overstacked base to operate aircraft is asking for trouble.

I'm still learning and still trying to figure out the optimum way to do the atoll assault thing. In all honesty its probably not necessary in the current game I'm playing, but I figure I may as well learn it now. Just getting the right mix is a challenge and there doesn't seem to be a "magic formula".

While the allieds do have plenty, certain specalized units that are vital such as combat engineers, tanks and artillery are relatively limited and getting them to the right place at the right time can be challenging. if your opponent is good they will have strong defenses and defending interior lines by the time the allieds take the offensive. That may mean you'll may find yourself conducting coordinated assaults in different locations and then "plenty" may seem like not enough and not at the right place at the right time. The new port limits add another level of headaches to deal with as it could easily throw off your timeline.

Make a mistake and you may lose a bunch of vital ships and men. Then you'll be stuck with less than optimal amphibious forces to work with.

Its feel like I'm doing the work of a traffic cop/movie director and choreographer as much as a military strategist at this stage of the war.

[pompack]

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

[sfbaytf]

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Number 3. You may or may not want to land naval support troops. It all depends on how the atoll fits into the overall picture. For instance if you plan on using the atoll as a hub/stepping stone/staging area then yes naval support troops could be useful. If thats the case then #5 would not be applicable.

Air support units will eventually be needed. Do you land them in the initial assault wave or follow up wave?

Construction troops/engineers are useful in many cases. If you blast the place invading, the construction/engineer units will be very useful in getting the captured airfield/port back into operating condition faster.

Land HQ's will be useful in minimizing disruption? Don't know the exact answer to this.

APH HQ's on command ships very useful.

Yes, get the assault force off asap. The best means? LST's/LSI's/APA's/AKA's seem to work well. AP's. AK's seem to work less well. Docking ships would also be in order, but the ports tend to be small on atolls and it may be damaged. Its would seem that naval support if landed with the initial assault wave would be useful for getting troops back onto landing ships, however the larger naval support units may cause a problem with stacking limits. Using the smaller naval support detachments may be a better choice.

LST's/LSI's if you have some to spare are useful loaded up with supplies.

Tanks/combat ENG's/ART. I'm using them alot in invasions. One thing I've noticed about tanks-they don't suffer much losses in assaults. They do get fatigued and disrupted however.

Make sure you unload as much supplies as quickly as possible. Nothing worse than running out. Your assault capability will diminish quickly without them.

Marines suffer less disrution in amphibious assaults.

I also suspect that breaking down a division and landing them as seperate regiments is better than landing a division as a whole.
Not sure of this, but so far it seems that defenders on atolls suffer much more from carrier air bombardment once your assault troops have landed and made contact.

[freeboy]

ok in regard to overstacking and disruption
NONONO!!!
maybe what you guys are talking about above is WAD, but I have an overstack in Midway in my PBEM game forever. certainly over ten months and lots of supplies, so I just reloaded the last turn, disruption and fatigue under 5!!!
So I guess with enough support and supplies you simply burn more suppleis, again I ask, who cares?

[sfbaytf]

May work against the AI, but in a PBEM game the situation you described could lead to a counterattack by your opponent.

Midway is out of the way. What about an atoll that is close to enemy bases and you haven't eliminated your enemys forces. A wise PBEM player may wait for the right opportunity and counterattack. At the very least you may be forced to defend your overstacked base from a counterattack when those forces could be better employer elsewhere.

I also suspect that if a PBEM opponent sends a fleet on a bombardment mission your overstacked and oversupplied garrioson would suffer greatly and those plenty of supplies will go up in smoke...

How overstacked are you? I had 3 regiments of Marines a arm bn and art BN on an atoll and after taking the place suffered a pretty decent disruption effect. Probably overkill, but after my first fiasco I wanted to make sure.

I don't have much experience and I'm still feeling my way with taking atolls. So far most of my experience has been taking islands and bases where stacking limits don't apply.

So far my opponent is very good at counter attacking. I take nothing for granted. I don't like having a situation where I leave forces vulnerable to being pick off one by one.

[Brady]

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Which speaks to the core problem.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Which speaks to the core problem.

This is almost . . . Zen-like. [:D]

[pompack]

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Number 3. You may or may not want to land naval support troops. It all depends on how the atoll fits into the overall picture. For instance if you plan on using the atoll as a hub/stepping stone/staging area then yes naval support troops could be useful. If thats the case then #5 would not be applicable.

If you choose NOT to land "LOTS" of Naval Support troops, the game is not long enough to withdraw two or three divisions from an atoll (well, not without using hundreds of transports each trying to load a squad [:D]).

You can skip #5 if you like, but without #3 step 4 can take a long time.

[sfbaytf]

It does take long to get a division off an atoll and units with heavy equipment-ARM/ART even longer, so yes naval support is a big help. I'm still just trying to figure out the right "mix"

For instance would a smaller naval support detachment with 30 naval support working with APA's/LST/LSI work out ok? I've noticed that APA's with integral higgins boats are pretty efficient by themselves as are LST's and LSI's, so perhaps less naval support would do the job. Idealy the APA's and LSI's will be re-embarking the infantry untis while the LST's re-embarking the ARM and ART. You could also dock 1 or 2 transports and have them re-embark units.

The older AP's and AK's much less so. They take longer to unload and re-embark when not docked, so then a naval support unit with 50-100 naval support will probably be more efficient.

AKA's I'm not sure of...

All I do know is if you're not careful you can have a real mess and traffic jam around an atoll and if you're not careful present a very juicy target to your opponent. Against the AI its not an issue as I don't think its capable of analyzing what's going on and organizing a counter attack. Against another human player is another story.

[freeboy]

right, I am talking reasonable amounts and managingthem, lots of support and supplies.. but the fear of using troops seems overblown..
In pbem, take what you can... and there really are three different, four? seasons of big campaign each affecting what each side does... let me digress, the first is total jap dominance, as Jap you pretty much do what you want and look for a fight.. then its paraty and turning of the tide as the massive amounts of new units planes ships come in, then US dominance followed by us dominance with Kamikazi's..
Now how is this relevent you ask?
Exactly, this issue of what to take the sand hills in the ocean we call atols with is dependant on which stage you are in and which side! If it total US domination,dcertainly mid 43 on, the allies should be able to add enough supporting types. land and sea as to pretty much diregard, within reason the 6k figure... I am not talking about 100k worth of troops staging from these places, just no need t obe rigid about the 6k is all... reember they are not efficient for loading unloading and basing prety much anything..
 
Hope you find this relevant.. and good luck sorting out WHICH Allied units to use...
[:D] or if Jap player... when to fold the tents and hunker down for the inevatable [X(][X(]

[sfbaytf]

Its June 1944 and while I have the advantage, I don't have complete domination. My opponent has preserved most of the Imperial Fleet and is hoarding LBA for a massive alpha strike. We're playing 2 day turns, so he is still more than capable of doing some serious damage by sneaking out and striking.

My opponent is also defending with the advantage of interior lines of communications. As I advance my lines of communications gets longer, while his gets shorter.

I have numerical superiority, but cannot be everywhere at once. If I get careless I could get wacked and lose alot of valuable stuff.

The way our particular war has played out, its not really necessary for me to be invading some of these atolls, but I figure I may as well take the time to make the mistakes now and learn and how to do it right. Never know when you're going to be forced to do so and that won't be the time to be learning and making mistakes.

We have no house rules so anything goes, but they could very well come a time when hose rules will be involved and then massive overstacking and piling up mounds of supplies on an atoll won't be allowed.

IRL the bloodiest days for the allieds occured when they possesses overwhelming superiority in terms of quantity and quality. We'll see how it goes in AE, but I do know my opponent is going to try and extract as much blood as possible. I don't expect him to finish the game with his fleet afloat and aircraft fleet intact.

Like taking on a wounded animal....

[Brady]

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


This is almost . . . Zen-like. [:D]

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

[sfbaytf]

I agree things could be done in a "gamey" matter, but I haven't attempted any really outrageous thing like a 3 div assault on an atoll. SO I don;t know how messy that would be.

1 div plus 3 suppporting units (ENG, ARM, ART) is the max I've tried. I figure that would be pretty reasonable. IIRC the US invaded Kwajealean with 1 division and 2 additional regiments and a regiment of marines.

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


This is almost . . . Zen-like. [:D]

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Brady

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58


This is almost . . . Zen-like. [:D]

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

Ah. I had not gotten that point.[:)]

This is what I've been discussing in the thread I started on the CD system. Even with "good" CD performance the attacker can overwhelm any island if he's willing to invest in hundreds of simultaneously-unloading transports. The advantage is always with the attacker under stacking penalties, but CD damage can slow down even a large TF, but, to JWE's point about algorithm boundry conditions, not really a huge transport TF.

[John Lansford]

I wouldn't mess with the CentPac atolls until the other side's CV's have been neutralized.  Unless you want to station your CV's off the atoll until all your supplies and support have unloaded (risking sub attack) to protect them, you've got to work under LBA cover and there's nowhere to do that in CentPac at the start (for the allies).

Also, don't build up a lot of CentPac bases into big airbases as the Japanese.  Unless you want to heavily defend every one of them, you're just creating a base for the Allies to swoop in and start using right away.  Having 2-3 mutually supporting airbases is ideal, since the Allies would then have to worry not only about surface/CV TF attacks, but constant LBA raids on their TF's and ground units. 

As the Allies, I wouldn't move onto the CentPac bases unless I had a strong covering force for the amphibious TF's, in addition to at least 2 CV's providing aircover.  The atolls were taken with division strength assaults, so IRL the planners didn't worry too much about overstacking either, at least at first.  I retook Canton from the AI with a reinforced 2 regiment assault, then loaded the two regiments back on board ships after unloading a support and defense unit there.

[Q-Ball]

Brady is right, the changes in AE have made Atolls easier to assualt overall. The stacking rules favor the attacker. The Marshalls become extra-vulnerable for the Empire.

On the flip-side though, those same rules make the bases less useful; with stacking rules, much harder to develop it into a major base or bomber platform.

The other break on Allied rampage is that I would highly recommend you DONT land on atoll unless you are 100% prepped!