The China Problem

[Canoerebel]

It's July '43 in my PBEM game. The Chinese have a medium sized army of 1500 AV at Liuchow. The Japanese shock attack and the Chinese lose six months worth of infantry in one turn. Compare the number of Japanese and Chinese squads lost.

Ground combat at Liuchow (74,55)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 43948 troops, 473 guns, 186 vehicles, Assault Value = 1427

Defending force 61982 troops, 507 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1515

Japanese adjusted assault: 875

Allied adjusted defense: 177

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Liuchow !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
4512 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 266 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 190 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Vehicles lost 12 (0 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
25077 casualties reported
Squads: 1136 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 716 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 121 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 93 (93 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 20


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
33rd Division
104th/B Division
23rd Division
38th Division
104th/C Division
2nd RF Gun Battalion
14th Army
5th RF Gun Battalion
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion

Defending units:
63rd Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
25th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
8th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
28th New Chinese Division
31st Chinese Corps
39th New Chinese Division
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
7th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
9th Group Army
35th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
49th AA Regiment

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's July '43 in my PBEM game. The Chinese have a medium sized army of 1500 AV at Liuchow. The Japanese shock attack and the Chinese lose six months worth of infantry in one turn. Compare the number of Japanese and Chinese squads lost.

Ground combat at Liuchow (74,55)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 43948 troops, 473 guns, 186 vehicles, Assault Value = 1427

Defending force 61982 troops, 507 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1515

Japanese adjusted assault: 875

Allied adjusted defense: 177

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Liuchow !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
4512 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 266 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 190 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Vehicles lost 12 (0 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
25077 casualties reported
Squads: 1136 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 716 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 121 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 93 (93 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 20


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
33rd Division
104th/B Division
23rd Division
38th Division
104th/C Division
2nd RF Gun Battalion
14th Army
5th RF Gun Battalion
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion

Defending units:
63rd Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
25th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
8th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
28th New Chinese Division
31st Chinese Corps
39th New Chinese Division
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
7th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
9th Group Army
35th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
49th AA Regiment

Well, for starters, your "1500" AV is fictious. Once your disruption (previous defeat / retreat?), experience and supply (you must really be low here?) is factored in, the real AV is pretty paltry at 177. The IJA is disrupted too, but not shy of supplies and is shock attacking. Retreating troops from either side take disproportional casualties when kicked out a city (or other) hex, particularly against faster troops that can run them down.

To further the narrative: both parties are tired, dirty and beaten down by fighting. It's just he's got the pride of the Wehrmacht with ample supplies and you've got the 1941 Red Army encircled, cut off from supplies and then routed.

The resulting fight sees much of your Chinese diaspora melt into the countryside or become combat ineffective. Units led by weaker officers fragment and cease to function. They disappear. Others flee from the captured city, dropping equipment and material in their wake to speed their departure. Many are cut down as the Japanese shock attack carries over the roads out of Liuchow. Several armored units rush to the fore and cut down or simply crush the Chinese under their treads as they sweep all before them. A dozen Japanese tanks are damaged by running over Chinese equipment left in the roadway or by having their bogey wheels clogged with the slippery innards of their crushed victims.

Well, some poetic license there at the end, but that's what I see. Liuchow got it's backside handed to it. Looks OK to me.

[BeastieDog]

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Fort Level 0

What were the disruption,experience, fatigue, and morale levels of both sides?
What were the Chinese supply levels?

Edit: Also, what artillery does each side possess?

[Canoerebel]

China hasn't had any supply except in a few core cities since early '42 (my opponent wiped out industry through a sustained strategic bombing campaign).
 
Neither side has much artillery in this engagement.
 
Disruption and fatigue were high as this occurred at the end of a prolonged seige.  Experience for the Chinese was fairly low.  I don't know about the Japanese.
 
The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month.  I lost six times that many in one day. 

[BeastieDog]

Assaulting units:
33rd Division
104th/B Division
23rd Division
38th Division
104th/C Division
2nd RF Gun Battalion
14th Army

It looks like your opponent moved the 38th Div and 14th Army HQ to China.

Edit: or kept the 38th in china.

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

China hasn't had any supply except in a few core cities since early '42 (my opponent wiped out industry through a sustained strategic bombing campaign).

Neither side has much artillery in this engagement.

Disruption and fatigue were high as this occurred at the end of a prolonged seige.  Experience for the Chinese was fairly low.  I don't know about the Japanese.

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month.  I lost six times that many in one day. 

Ah, I see. Well, sounds like you have some differences of opinion re: the replacement rate of Chinese infantry in the game. Duly noted.

[Kiith]

I know it doesn't help but if want to look at that result in a positive way then at least you don't have to worry about burning supplies to repair your disabled squads (since they were all destroyed).

[khyberbill]

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month. I lost six times that many in one day.

I agree. I think that increasing the Chinese replacement rate is probably the number 1 wish on my list. Destroyed Chinese units respawn due to the ability of the Chinese army to recruit low exp troops. This should also be reflected in the replacement rate.

[Alfred]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month.  I lost six times that many in one day. 

The solution to that is to have the Chinese unit destroyed and have it come back in 30 days at Chungking with 1/3 strength. That has always been the way the practically "unlimited" Chinese manpower has been factored into this game engine.

Alfred

[Cyber Me]

Yes but the time between destroyed Chinese units spawnning back is very considerable. Much territory can be lost in their absence.

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month.  I lost six times that many in one day. 

The solution to that is to have the Chinese unit destroyed and have it come back in 30 days at Chungking with 1/3 strength. That has always been the way the practically "unlimited" Chinese manpower has been factored into this game engine.

Alfred

Problem with this is that it sometimes is quite hard to get your units destroyed. I have a Chinese corps that has been forced to retreat 5 or 6 times now, having only a couple of 75mm guns the whole time, yet it survives.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

It's July '43 in my PBEM game. The Chinese have a medium sized army of 1500 AV at Liuchow. The Japanese shock attack and the Chinese lose six months worth of infantry in one turn. Compare the number of Japanese and Chinese squads lost.

Ground combat at Liuchow (74,55)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 43948 troops, 473 guns, 186 vehicles, Assault Value = 1427

Defending force 61982 troops, 507 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1515

Japanese adjusted assault: 875

Allied adjusted defense: 177

Japanese assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Liuchow !!!

Combat modifiers
Defender: disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
4512 casualties reported
Squads: 10 destroyed, 266 disabled
Non Combat: 7 destroyed, 190 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 26 disabled
Vehicles lost 12 (0 destroyed, 12 disabled)

Allied ground losses:
25077 casualties reported
Squads: 1136 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 716 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 121 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 93 (93 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 20


Defeated Allied Units Retreating!

Assaulting units:
33rd Division
104th/B Division
23rd Division
38th Division
104th/C Division
2nd RF Gun Battalion
14th Army
5th RF Gun Battalion
9th Ind.Hvy.Art. Battalion

Defending units:
63rd Chinese Corps
4th Chinese Corps
25th Chinese Corps
97th Chinese Corps
1st Chinese Cavalry Corps
8th Chinese Corps
94th Chinese Corps
71st Chinese Corps
62nd Chinese Corps
28th New Chinese Division
31st Chinese Corps
39th New Chinese Division
4th Heavy Mortar Regiment
7th Chinese Base Force
4th War Area
3rd Heavy Mortar Regiment
9th Group Army
35th Group Army
57th AT Gun Regiment
49th AA Regiment

that´s nothing unusual, your troops have been forced to retreat. Would you have hold your line you would have lost 1/4 of your losses. Too few destroyed squads for the attacker but that´s always the same. Retreats always have been bloody for the one that is forced to.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month. I lost six times that many in one day.

I agree. I think that increasing the Chinese replacement rate is probably the number 1 wish on my list. Destroyed Chinese units respawn due to the ability of the Chinese army to recruit low exp troops. This should also be reflected in the replacement rate.

increasing the replacement rate won´t help you much due to the fact that you don´t have the supplies to draw them and get them out of disabled state.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

The problem really isn't the combat result here, it's the impact. The Chinese only get 200 infantry squads per month.  I lost six times that many in one day. 

The solution to that is to have the Chinese unit destroyed and have it come back in 30 days at Chungking with 1/3 strength. That has always been the way the practically "unlimited" Chinese manpower has been factored into this game engine.

Alfred

Problem with this is that it sometimes is quite hard to get your units destroyed. I have a Chinese corps that has been forced to retreat 5 or 6 times now, having only a couple of 75mm guns the whole time, yet it survives.

yeah, a smart Japanese player doesn´t surround your base and force everything in there to surrender but tries (if possible) to force the defender to retreat a couple of times, which makes the retreating units completely useless, they will never be rebuilt and the Chinese don´t get them as 1/3 strenght unit back.

[Miller]

To give myself some credit (if I may) this battle is the end result of failed Chinese offensive in the south of the country.

[treespider]

Well in my game with Dixon---when I have a Chinese unit trashed...I use the remanants to continuely launch suicide attacks against the Japanese until the unit dies. He cannot ignore the units lest they sit on a rail line causing him supply issues...

Granted it is still early in my game and it was started w/ 1097 and the increased garrison requirements, and the only real HR is you have to pay PP to bring stuff in from Manchuria/Korea. The way I look at it is if he wants to waste resources doing that have at it...in the meantime the Japanese supply burn has to be fairly significant as he is forced into continuely attacking everywhere...

Here is a screenshot of most of Northern China...note - yes I have lost Loyang and Chengchow...but he has lost Nanchang, Kweisui, and will likely lose Mangan while he was busy taking the Loyang/Chengchow area.

Southern China to follow...

[bklooste]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

China hasn't had any supply except in a few core cities since early '42 (my opponent wiped out industry through a sustained strategic bombing campaign).

There is a reason why 70% of games have the no Strat bombing house rule... without it you have no bullets and get crushed. Also a good idea to send as many units as you can to Burma so they dont suck supplies./

[treespider]

In southern China I abandon Chuhsien and Wenchow...but I build Pucheng's airfield and forts ...and when he tried to take Pucheng he was stopped cold. Likewise his brigade and extras near Kukong were roughly handled by the Chinese I have there.

The issue IMO in China is when a Japanese player decides he wants to resolve the China issue by devoting extra resources to its subjugation...

[Chickenboy]

ORIGINAL: Miller

To give myself some credit (if I may) this battle is the end result of failed Chinese offensive in the south of the country.

Miller, can you tell us more about this failed Chinese offensive? I don't recall hearing much about it...

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Miller

To give myself some credit (if I may) this battle is the end result of failed Chinese offensive in the south of the country.

Miller, can you tell us more about this failed Chinese offensive? I don't recall hearing much about it...

I'd like to know too since I'm his opponent.

I suppose he's talking about the little Chinese offensive in which they advanced a few units from the west through the jungle and took the vacant Nanning. This forced Miller to withdraw his troops from Liuchow. So the Chinese troops at Liuchow and Kweilin moved south one hex, tried on deliberate attack on the little Japanese stack in the forest, found that it wasn't going to work, and retreated back to Lichow and Kweilin. Then, when the Japanese advanced on Nanning, the Chinese withdrew those troops to Liuchow. The total cost of this "failed campaign" was nil.

Chickenboy, you can read more about this little campaign in my AAR, though it doesn't get much mention because there was very little to it.

The reason for the drastic results at Liuchow is that there were zero supplies there. There are zero supplies at every Chinese city except three. The reason for that is strategic bombing eliminated Chinese industry early in the game. I cannot offer any resistance except at the three cities that have a little supply.