I Hated Allied DD's

[Zeta16]

Ok I hate these things, you can never hit them with divebombers or TB bombers, or even Battleships. They even as a two ship DD taskforce put torps into the Musashi which led to here downfall on the same turn.


Night Time Surface Combat, near Dadjangas at 78,93, Range 11,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Nagato
BB Yamato
BB Musashi, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CA Mikuma
DD Fujinami
DD Hamanami
DD Umikaze, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Tagonami
DD Suruyame

Allied Ships
DD Mustin, Shell hits 4, and is sunk
DD Van Ghent, Shell hits 1



Improved night sighting under 75% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 75% moonlight: 12,000 yards
Range closes to 23,000 yards...
Range closes to 17,000 yards...
Range closes to 11,000 yards...
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 11,000 yards
CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 11,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Hamanami engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
DD Fujinami engages DD Mustin at 11,000 yards
Perry P. orders Allied TF to disengage
Range closes to 4,000 yards
BB Musashi engages DD Van Ghent at 4,000 yards
BB Yamato engages DD Mustin at 4,000 yards
Range closes to 2,000 yards
DD Mustin engages BB Musashi at 2,000 yards
DD Mustin sunk by BB Yamato at 2,000 yards
Range increases to 4,000 yards
DD Van Ghent engages DD Umikaze at 4,000 yards
CA Mikuma engages DD Van Ghent at 4,000 yards
DD Umikaze engages DD Van Ghent at 4,000 yards
Range increases to 10,000 yards
DD Hamanami engages DD Van Ghent at 10,000 yards
BB Nagato engages DD Van Ghent at 10,000 yards
DD Tagonami engages DD Van Ghent at 10,000 yards
Task forces break off...

Here is an example of turn after turn of air attacks doing nothing to DD's

Morning Air attack on TF, near Siargao at 83,90

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y1 Judy x 16



Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Bush



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 3000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Siargao at 83,90

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 17
D4Y1 Judy x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Bush
DD Cony



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 4000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
Morning Air attack on TF, near Dadjangas at 78,93

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 7
D4Y1 Judy x 30



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 20
F6F-3 Hellcat x 7
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Dyson
DD Terry



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 21000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
VS-61 with OS2U-3 Kingfisher (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 16350 , scrambling fighters to 16350.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
15th FG/47th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
15th FG/72nd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
8 planes vectored on to bombers
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Dadjangas at 78,93

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 4
D4Y1 Judy x 27



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 17
F6F-3 Hellcat x 6
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 11


Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 6 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Hobby
DD Anderson
DD Terry



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 4000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
VS-61 with OS2U-3 Kingfisher (5 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16350 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
15th FG/47th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
9 planes vectored on to bombers
15th FG/72nd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead

It seems like this happens turn after turn.

[vonTirpitz]

Yep. That's why I hope to sink as many of my opponents tincans in '42 as I possibly can. [8D]

The Yamatos would probably have a better chance at ramming a destroyer at night than actually hitting one with its 18.1" guns.

Speaking of which, has anyone ever seen a collision between enemy ships yet? I've have a couple each month among my own forces, but have not yet managed to run into "the other guy". [:D]

[wdolson]

DDs were tough to hit when at speed.  They are very maneuverable and some are the fastest ships in game.

At the Battle Off Samar, the USS Johnston managed to get so close to one IJN battleship that they couldn't depress the main guns low enough to hit the DD.  By they time the Johnston was running out of ammo and was firing star shells at the BB.  As soon as the Johnston took a hit though, it was all over.

I just finished reading a book about the USS Dale which was at Pearl Harbor, participated in many battles in the Pacific and survived the war with only one casualty when a crew member was washed overboard during a typhoon, then washed back aboard with the next wave.  He was injured, but not killed.  At Pearl, the Japanese wasted a lot of bombs in the second wave trying to sink the Dale in the ship channel while she was trying to put to sea.

If the best dive bomber pilots in the IJN can't hit a DD in a ship channel, they're tough to hit.

Bill

[Dili]

Strange... they were even sunk by level bombers in Mediterranean and many more by dive bombers...

[LoBaron]

Tirpitz check your TF sizes.
Above certainn limits (depending on TF type) you get increased chances of collisions.

[castor troy]

even my B-17s put bombs into DDs...

[John Lansford]

I had two enemy cruisers collide in a night surface battle (think one of them was Mogami) early in my CG, and have seen merchant ships in bit TF's collide all the time when they are trying to scatter and escape my ships.

[LoBaron]

ORIGINAL: Dili

Strange... they were even sunk by level bombers in Mediterranean and many more by dive bombers...

True but not so many as one might think...

http://bluejacket.com/ww2_ship_loss2.html

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

I had two enemy cruisers collide in a night surface battle (think one of them was Mogami) early in my CG, and have seen merchant ships in bit TF's collide all the time when they are trying to scatter and escape my ships.

AP and more so AK commanders often have very bad naval ratings and I guess chance of collision increases when ships try to scatter.

I think you can´t totally avoid collisions but you can reduce them to a minimum.

[Puhis]

Royal Navy lost over 60 DDs and DEs in Mediterrenean.

http://www.naval-history.net/WW2aBritishLosses04DD.htm

[LoBaron]

Yes you are right. Not so many USN DD´s in the Mediterranean for obvious reasons.
Damn how could I forget about the British Navy?! [X(]
 
Still I think theres a lot of difference between the confined waters there and the Atlantic/Pacific theatre
where TFs werent exposed to a constant air threat all the way on a 3000mile cruise.
 
So I´m not sure if the comparision between Mediterranean and the Pacific is a valid one.

[aciddrinker]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

[
Morning Air attack on TF, near Siargao at 83,90

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
D4Y1 Judy x 16



Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 3 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Bush



Aircraft Attacking:
12 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 3000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet *
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Siargao at 83,90

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 17
D4Y1 Judy x 10



Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied Ships
DD Bush
DD Cony



Aircraft Attacking:
4 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 4000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb
Morning Air attack on TF, near Dadjangas at 78,93

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 120 NM, estimated altitude 27,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 31 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 7
D4Y1 Judy x 30



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 20
F6F-3 Hellcat x 7
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 13


Japanese aircraft losses
A6M5 Zero: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 6 destroyed, 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Dyson
DD Terry



Aircraft Attacking:
16 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 21000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (7 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
7 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
VS-61 with OS2U-3 Kingfisher (0 airborne, 7 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 16350 , scrambling fighters to 16350.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 36 minutes
15th FG/47th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 12 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 4 minutes
15th FG/72nd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 8 being recalled, 0 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
8 planes vectored on to bombers
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Dadjangas at 78,93

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M5 Zero x 4
D4Y1 Judy x 27



Allied aircraft
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 17
F6F-3 Hellcat x 6
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 11


Japanese aircraft losses
D4Y1 Judy: 6 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-47D2 Thunderbolt: 1 destroyed
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD Hobby
DD Anderson
DD Terry



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 4000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb
6 x D4Y1 Judy bombing from 2000 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 500 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
VF-60 with F6F-3 Hellcat (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
VS-61 with OS2U-3 Kingfisher (5 airborne, 6 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 16350 , scrambling fighters to 16000.
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 33 minutes
15th FG/47th FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead
9 planes vectored on to bombers
15th FG/72nd FS with P-47D2 Thunderbolt (8 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
8 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 20000
Raid is overhead

It seems like this happens turn after turn.

Well you use your dive bombers like level one, over 20k they make normal horizontal atack, betwen 1-9k they also perform horizontal strike, set them to 10-15k to perform dive attack, or 16-19 for glide. Dive strike is most accurate.

[John Lansford]

Mines were a big DD killer in the Med, as were submarines.  It didn't help when they were sitting off of beaches evacuating or providing fire support either; their maneuver room was constrained and high speed was out of the question when the DB's showed up.

[vinnie71]

Also in the Med many British ships were lost due to running out of AA ammo fighting off air attacks. This was especially true during the evacuation of Crete when even larger ships were sunk or heavily damaged in repeated air attacks.

[Iridium]

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Also in the Med many British ships were lost due to running out of AA ammo fighting off air attacks. This was especially true during the evacuation of Crete when even larger ships were sunk or heavily damaged in repeated air attacks.

Throughout the war British DD's rarely had much in the way of AA suites. Even after the way they were still building DD's with low angle main batteries. Lack of DP gun mounts and trouble building them in quantity if I recall.

[Zeta16]

ORIGINAL: aciddrinker


Well you use your dive bombers like level one, over 20k they make normal horizontal atack, betwen 1-9k they also perform horizontal strike, set them to 10-15k to perform dive attack, or 16-19 for glide. Dive strike is most accurate.

What kind of rule is this. They are divebombers. they should dive bomb. So if I fly them in over 20k they will not divebomd. What a stupid rule. Let's see they are on naval attack so let's just drop our bombs from 20k. Come on, why are these rules in the game, what pilot would ever do this in a divebomber on naval attack.

[anarchyintheuk]

ORIGINAL: Iridium

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Also in the Med many British ships were lost due to running out of AA ammo fighting off air attacks. This was especially true during the evacuation of Crete when even larger ships were sunk or heavily damaged in repeated air attacks.

Throughout the war British DD's rarely had much in the way of AA suites. Even after the way they were still building DD's with low angle main batteries. Lack of DP gun mounts and trouble building them in quantity if I recall.

They never seemed to make up their mind what their dd main armament and secondary armament should be . . . 4, 4.5. 2 x 4.7s, 5.25.

[Speedy Gonzales]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

Ok I hate these things, you can never hit them with divebombers or TB bombers, or even Battleships. They even as a two ship DD taskforce put torps into the Musashi which led to here downfall on the same turn.

Reminds me of HMS Acasta

[aciddrinker]

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

ORIGINAL: aciddrinker


Well you use your dive bombers like level one, over 20k they make normal horizontal atack, betwen 1-9k they also perform horizontal strike, set them to 10-15k to perform dive attack, or 16-19 for glide. Dive strike is most accurate.

What kind of rule is this. They are divebombers. they should dive bomb. So if I fly them in over 20k they will not divebomd. What a stupid rule. Let's see they are on naval attack so let's just drop our bombs from 20k. Come on, why are these rules in the game, what pilot would ever do this in a divebomber on naval attack.

Well think only that if any dive bomber start atack from 20k feets will need to release bombs araound 7-8k to get out from dive and not crash. So accuracy will be very low.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Bandjermasin at 60,102

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31
B5N2 Kate x 27
D3A1 Val x 26



Allied aircraft
B-339D x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-339D: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAP West Point, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
AP Joseph T. Dickman, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP Leonard Wood, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Mount Vernon, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
xAK Filleigh, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
xAK Clan Alpine, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAP Wakefield, Bomb hits 4, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
3e-1-VI.G.V Groep with B-339D (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP West Point

[Miller]

As the IJN I am quite happy to commit small TFs with a couple of CLs and DDs into Allied airspace, they are hard to hit from the air or sea........when you think about it in real life it must have been very hard for a BB to get a hit on something moving at 35kts......

[Zeta16]

ORIGINAL: aciddrinker

ORIGINAL: Zeta16

ORIGINAL: aciddrinker


Well you use your dive bombers like level one, over 20k they make normal horizontal atack, betwen 1-9k they also perform horizontal strike, set them to 10-15k to perform dive attack, or 16-19 for glide. Dive strike is most accurate.

What kind of rule is this. They are divebombers. they should dive bomb. So if I fly them in over 20k they will not divebomd. What a stupid rule. Let's see they are on naval attack so let's just drop our bombs from 20k. Come on, why are these rules in the game, what pilot would ever do this in a divebomber on naval attack.

Well think only that if any dive bomber start atack from 20k feets will need to release bombs araound 7-8k to get out from dive and not crash. So accuracy will be very low.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on TF, near Bandjermasin at 60,102

Weather in hex: Thunderstorms

Raid spotted at 30 NM, estimated altitude 16,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 11 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 31
B5N2 Kate x 27
D3A1 Val x 26



Allied aircraft
B-339D x 1


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
B-339D: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
xAP West Point, Bomb hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
AP Joseph T. Dickman, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AP Leonard Wood, Bomb hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAP Mount Vernon, Torpedo hits 2, on fire
xAK Filleigh, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
xAK Clan Alpine, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
xAP Wakefield, Bomb hits 4, on fire



Aircraft Attacking:
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
9 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 10000 feet
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Naval Attack: 1 x 250 kg SAP Bomb

CAP engaged:
3e-1-VI.G.V Groep with B-339D (0 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(1 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 14000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 26 minutes

Heavy smoke from fires obscuring xAP West Point

I guess I understand, but in real life as they got close they would taper down to correct level then make the dives. Maybe the game should say when you set the Alt. that they dive, glide or level. Why can not dive bombers get to a level like the torp bombers do in the game.